Website Feedback
Closed Threads
IRC Chat
irc.quakenet.org #teamliquid
IRC Web ClientTeamSpeak 3 (54 users) | |
|
| CAPSLOCKLOL United States. June 02 2012 11:52. Posts 121 | Profile Blog # |
Replay: http://drop.sc/189943 (Masters level replay)
My analysis: I open up fairly standard based on what I've observed in pro games: gasless 1 rax fe, into reactor hellion + cloaked banshee harass with a fairly quick 3rd. Nothing truly game changing occurs in the beginning because I'm very cautious with my hellions and usually prefer to just use them to secure a safer third. There's definitely a lot I can improve on in the early game, but I don't feel like that had a major contribution to my loss so I'm not focusing on that now.
Now for where things begin to go bad for me. I go for a 15:00 marine tank timing with +2/+1 (although it does come closer to 16 minutes) and upon looking at the replay I'm 30-50 supply ahead when I push. I'm pretty even in upgrades, but my opponent still trades really well with me while making lings, banes, and infestors and still being able to afford hive.
I'm really lost on what I could've changed about that mid game push that would've made a significant difference. I compare my supply counts with other replays of pros, and I notice my army / upgrades aren't too different from what they have at the same in game time but the outcomes of our pushes are drastically different. Also any tips on combating hive tech would be greatly appreciated. |
|
|
| Tufty United States. June 02 2012 13:06. Posts 17 | Profile # |
Early game: Okay, you scouted a 15 hatch at the same time you would need to build your second supply depot. DO NOT delay your expo and geysers by building a second supply depot or marines if you plan to go banshee hellion opening. Build your expo, and get both geysers up before you build ANY marines. As in cancel the first one once your scout gets there. Build your bunker a little farther forward to cover the ramp and be touching the cc.
early midgame: It is really important to use the hellions for map control and delay the zerg's third. Sitting them at the zerg's watchtower on daybreak covers all attack paths to your base, any push comes, you'll see it coming. The banshees need to constantly be active moving around the zerg. Checking the third/fourth is always worthwhile. Simply pushing up into the third with the hellions is never bad with the intention of pulling back.
Midgame push: You pretty plainly overextended your marines and hellions out of tank cover. clearing creep is great, but not with so many units. Spread your tanks and you will maximize the shots they get off. Now against banelings, it is REALLY important to focus down the banelings with the tanks. That, along with marinespread, and your push could very well have destroyed the zergs fourth.
Lategame: This is when his hive tech starts coming at you. He pushes with lingbane infestor with 4 broodlords. It is really important to be able to kill the army other than the broodlords. Snce he still has alot of lingbane, seige your tanks, Produce thors at this point and a few vikings should be enough to kill 4 broods. He reproduces with ultras, which are suprisingly bad against thors.
Conclusion: When going for a large, well upgrades midgame push, its really important not to miscontrol, as the zerg can crush a marine tank push const efficiently if its out of position. A strong midgame solves alot of the headaches of lategame as you're in a more advantageous position . Killing off zergs fourth would have opened a clear window to continually deny the zerg bases. |
| | Your logic has no place here. |
|
|
| Viperbird United States. June 02 2012 13:16. Posts 90 | Profile # |
Im definitely not as good as you or your opponent, so take this with a grain of salt...
I dont think that the early banshees are good, as zergs seem to be making more queens as of late. They are good of course if the zerg does some roach pressure or roach/bane, but i think a single marauder in a bunker is safe against that, along with good micro. Then of course you didnt do any damage with the banshees and lost them 
Zerg going ling/festor will pretty much always be behind in supply in the midgame, thats normal.
As previously said, you overextended yourself with your midgame push. Also your tank count seemed low, and didnt see any focus fire on the infestors or banes with the tanks. Tried 1 drop and never did again? (maybe i missed another idk)
Late game, you pretty much seemed slightly behind on upgrades, and you simply allowed brood lord/infestor to stroll right to your base. Try delaying the push with drops and small counter attacks, while adding whatever you like to use against broods... vikings/thors or whatever.
Hope it helps!  |
| | If at first you don't succeed, don't try skydiving! |
|
|
| jabberjaw June 02 2012 13:55. Posts 222 | Profile # |
IMO, your timing needs more tanks. Well, you had enough tanks produced ~7 or so, but a few were at home when the zerg finally did engage your army at the tower. Whenver you move out with your timing, scout for where his 4th expansion is going to be. Wherever it is, go there and set up a solid position with spread out tanks and marines and start shelling away at it.
I think you win if you just scout his bottom expansion, and take it out with your initial push. I find if you can limit the zerg to 3 bases or delay their 4th/kill it somehow, their broodlord tech is incredibly weak, I find broodlords off 3 bases weak as they cant support the production of broodlords + corrupters, so your vikings just dominate. |
| |
|
| vaderseven United States. June 02 2012 17:18. Posts 2203 | Profile # |
At 8:42 I pause and see that he has invested ~1550 more into his econ than you have (spending tab) and that your banshee/hellion stuff is about to hit. He has lost 100 minerals of things thus far (units lost tab).
You lose about 300 and he loses about 500 in the harass. He pulls off of mining and loses about 400 or so in lost mining time. That puts him at 700 or so lost and you at 500 lost and he started off a 1000 ahead.
This is VERY rough numbers of course but they are based in logic and a good way to start looking for problems.
In the midgame, you choose to go for an aggressive expansion pattern as he goes a ling infestor midgame. I am not sure if this is wise... he is going to be able to hit you in several areas very easily and you are increasing the number of spots for him to hit. Traditionally, maybe this has changed, but drops and slightly larger tank counts (so a bit less marines really) seem to me to be better vs that (that may just be me though). I personally hate that your 2nd factory is being finished as your 4th CC lands. As you do your 200 food push near 16:00 (key timing dude, this is a good attack timing!@!!!!) your tank count is NOTHING (3 then 5) and his huge infestor ling bling army hard counters a no tank terran. You want to stick to a more 1 factory per base style (can be flexible, stay on 1 till 3rd base lands then add 2 is fine vs his style). If you had had say 8-12 tanks during that push and less marines you would have been able to do serious damage. Do make sure to back off as his hive tech kicks in (you stayed around too long and lost more than you should have). Think of that timing as a way to have the RIGHT max army do one more HO RA before the slightly weaker terran end game kicks in. Take out a base or two. Prevent his 4th as you take a 4th. Do something like that and then back off and take your 5th faster than he takes a 4th etc etc then push out and camp where he needs eventually as the game goes on.
Your late 2nd and 3rd factory is, imo, a huge problem in this game.
Im tired as hell now but ill rewatch tomorrow and post more <3.
glgl |
| | ♥TL Mafia Game, check us out and play with us in the TL Mafia section! / If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate. -Zapp B. | |
|
|
| Ryanstank United States. June 02 2012 17:32. Posts 5 | Profile # |
Split your marines. GG!
User was warned for this post
User was warned for this post |
| | I think that guy is just bad |
|
|
| MaxSteel June 03 2012 05:06. Posts 78 | Profile Blog # |
On June 02 2012 17:32 Ryanstank wrote:Split your marines. GG! User was warned for this postUser was warned for this post
2 warnings... is this even possible, or did you just edit it in??
User was warmed for this post
User was awarded a taco for this post
On topic:
I'm only playing on low diam/top plat level at the moment, but I used to have the same problem - infestor+zerglints tend to trade too efficently mid-game, and while that doesn't kill you off, against a good zerg (which most masters are, duh) it's very hard to really push into that with tanks-marines, without either moving 10 s per minute, or trading very inefficiently. And in no game have I managed to deal with 5/3 Ultra + 3/3 Ling + Infestor, if all I had was a ton of 3/3 Maraduers/Marines and 2/0 tanks.
Only thing I can suggest to you, play mech. That's the only way I found that can actually deal with Ultra zergs late-game.
You can try to only build a bit of bio at start, like 16 marines total out of 2 barracks, get only steam, only 2 medivecs, and do a nice little 7:30~8:10 timing push, potentially denying his 3rd. After/In-between that, get your factories, your 3rd (assuming you did a FA, which this timing push assumes you did), and turtle until you got at last 2/2 mech, controlling the map with hellions and potentially dropping them as well, depending on whether you saved those 2 medivacs.
But hey, if you prefer bio, that's totally your choice.
User was warned for defiling the holy red text. The gods smite thee.Last edit: 2012-06-04 06:02:39 |
| |
|
| eg9 Norway. June 03 2012 23:13. Posts 28 | Profile # |
I am sorry for not having watched the replay but as general advice against ling/bling/infestor midgame positioning, map control, and micro is the key using marine tank pushes.
Danger nr 1 is army density and siege mode. Having your army in a clump with unsieged tanks is suecide unless you have complete map-control around your army. When stationary; have your tanks and marines (especially at any flanks) spread.
Danger nr 2 is creep! Being sieged at the edge of the creep, waiting for it to receed is a huge danger as any push from the front will be so fast that lings will be at your siege tanks or bling/festor at your marines without time for kiting/second tank volley.
Danger 3 is your flanks. When moving out, secure your flanks to avoid getting cought with your pants down. Marine scouts, highground or linked tanks are superb at stopping surrounds and or runbys.
Ofc, detection is also smart against burrowed infestors/burrowed blings.
In the direct engagement you need to be ready to micro some. As he comes in you want to see what units come first. Your marines have little reason being ahead of your tanks as you want their dps to protect the tanks against lings, and you really want to keep them away from infestors(9range). The micro only really begins once the infestors/blings are in range. Target fire them with tanks and start running your marines once the infestors get near 9range(kite to hold off following lings). Ofc, if no infestors come its standard ling/bling micro and you should be really cost efficient. Imo there is little reason to split marines though as stimmed marines are faster than banelings off creep.
You will basically be trading tanks for infestors(and pretty damn cost effectively depending on micro) which is a pretty nice because it makes your marines/drops so much more effective and infestors are the key in any lategame scenario. (pure bl, pure ultra = crap)
This will either delay his transition or make it really weak while your comp is already pretty strong.
For most maps i think i would try to take the center and use it as a staging point to initiate drops / small pokes at his bases/secure more expos. This both challenges his multitask and frees up supply for any required transition to deal with hivetech.
From the earlier comments it sounded like you were playing very marine heavy. This has some advantages in terms of mobility i suppose but it is so dangerous unless you have mkp-splits, and even if you do split well you are in huge trouble if his infestors catch your medivacs.
User was warned for not watching the replay |
|
|
| vaderseven United States. June 04 2012 03:16. Posts 2203 | Profile # |
nvm
Last edit: 2012-06-04 03:17:05 |
| | ♥TL Mafia Game, check us out and play with us in the TL Mafia section! / If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate. -Zapp B. | |
|
|
| eg9 Norway. June 04 2012 05:53. Posts 28 | Profile # |
Yeah, engaging on the edge of the creep with too low of a tank count really was the problem. You were by no means out of it after that engagement though, but the second and fatal mistake was that you maxed on marine tank when your opponent was transitioning into bl's.
Nice early game though |
|
|
 ][Primarch][ Sweden. June 04 2012 15:32. Posts 302 | Profile # |
after watching the replay here are the tips I can give.
you could add the second depot after getting the cc at the low ground and double ref, you could have 3 fac tank production when you get your third and you had too many scvs in the late game.
Yuur big push should perhaps have 8 tanks instead of 3 and 6-7 medivacs instead of 3, also the upgrades should be at least 2-2 going against this Z style of play. Also +2 attack on tank is feasible at that point in the game. ur much better than this zerg, having more workers, taking your fifth when he takes his fourth but sadly you play terran.
|
| | Huge fan of Empire Kas, The Destroyer of Worlds, The Machine, The Second Terminator, The Supreme Robot! |
|
|
| | |
|
|
|
| |
|
Sidebar Settings...
|
Store
