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| JaKaTaK United States. July 28 2012 11:09. Posts 1417 | Profile Blog # |
On July 28 2012 10:53 Tarqon wrote:
Clearing selection only works for observers I think. Definitely doesn't work for me while I'm playing.
I'll make a video of this to be more clear but:
Any camera can be set to any location!!!
1. Select something on the screen.
2. Hold shift and click on that object on the main screen. This will leave you with no selection in the wire frame area.
3. Press and hold Alt along with POIJ; or WERGS. |
| | Imagination is more important than knowlege |
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| Siirath Netherlands. July 28 2012 20:00. Posts 13 | Profile # |
@FoxyMayhem
I'm not talking about keeping the thumb above the space bar - I agree that that's way too little to do for the tumb. But I am talking about reassigning the keys between the alt and ctrl so that the key caps don't need to be removed. It looks as though you are correct about reassigning keys not being allowed in tournament play.
I always think these rules are kind of weird in the sense that, if it's part of your hardware driver, then it's allowed, otherwise it isn't. Or - if I bought a keyboard that physically has those keys in better positions for this type of setup then it's allowed, but allowing for that kind of flexibility in a smarter way isn't allowed.
@Antylamon
That's the kind of thing that you needed to specify beforehand.
That's not the kind of thing I need to specify beforehand when all I do is propose an alternative solution to removing key caps, and the first thing you reply (in bold no less) is that the specific program I am referring to will get you banned from Battlenet.That kind of implies that you know what you are talking about.
I am for a solution that is tournament viable, and I think that the premise of having the thumb do more work is great. As it stands now, I think that removing key caps (from often expensive and beautiful keyboards) is a deterrent for people who might otherwise be interested in using this setup.
Also the left handed setup seems better to me, as there is only one key between the alt and ctrl, while for the right handed setup there are 2.
So I'm going to break my head over taking this idea even further. 
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| | Fortune favors the prepared mind |
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| Czarnodziej Poland. July 28 2012 20:30. Posts 567 | Profile # |
On July 28 2012 20:00 Siirath wrote:
But I am talking about reassigning the keys between the alt and ctrl so that the key caps don't need to be removed.
You missing the point here. It is removed for the sake of convenience, not functionality.
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| Siirath Netherlands. July 28 2012 20:44. Posts 13 | Profile # |
On July 28 2012 20:30 Czarnodziej wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 20:00 Siirath wrote:
But I am talking about reassigning the keys between the alt and ctrl so that the key caps don't need to be removed.
You missing the point here. It is removed for the sake of convenience, not functionality.
I don't find popping 2 key caps out every time I want to play SC2 very convenient.
(out of my beautiful and expensive keyboard)Last edit: 2012-07-28 20:45:00 |
| | Fortune favors the prepared mind |
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| VanGarde Sweden. July 28 2012 23:49. Posts 752 | Profile # |
On July 28 2012 20:44 Siirath wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 20:30 Czarnodziej wrote:
On July 28 2012 20:00 Siirath wrote:
But I am talking about reassigning the keys between the alt and ctrl so that the key caps don't need to be removed.
You missing the point here. It is removed for the sake of convenience, not functionality.
I don't find popping 2 key caps out every time I want to play SC2 very convenient. (out of my beautiful and expensive keyboard)
You pop them out once and then you leave them out for the rest of time, you don't need those keys. |
| | War does not determine who is right - only who is left. |
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| JaKaTaK United States. July 29 2012 01:03. Posts 1417 | Profile Blog # |
| This layout was not designed to take the aesthetics of your keyboard into consideration. We tried to create a layout that would allow you to play the game faster than any other, if that means taking keys out of the keyboard, cutting it in half, holding it upside down, or gluing it to the wall, we'll do it. |
| | Imagination is more important than knowlege |
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| Kaitlin United States. July 29 2012 01:11. Posts 2201 | Profile # |
On July 29 2012 01:03 JaKaTaK wrote:
This layout was not designed to take the aesthetics of your keyboard into consideration. We tried to create a layout that would allow you to play the game faster than any other, if that means taking keys out of the keyboard, cutting it in half, holding it upside down, or gluing it to the wall, we'll do it.
Gluing it to the wall probably wouldn't be allowed in tournaments though. |
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| Siirath Netherlands. July 29 2012 01:54. Posts 13 | Profile # |
On July 29 2012 01:03 JaKaTaK wrote:
This layout was not designed to take the aesthetics of your keyboard into consideration. We tried to create a layout that would allow you to play the game faster than any other, if that means taking keys out of the keyboard, cutting it in half, holding it upside down, or gluing it to the wall, we'll do it.
I get that. So, why not rewire the keyboard then to put those keys in a more convenient location - that would allow you to "play the game faster than any other"? But, that's not "convenient" so, I get that you're not going to do that. I might.
So, if it's not tournament legal, then I also get (and said) that rebinding keys is not an option.
But Christ, I came here to say that I loved the concept, that I'm using it, and wait, maybe here's an idea that can make it easier, what do you think? You guys are just so intensely defensive.
Anyway, just to be clear, you will not get banned for using sharpkeys
Greetings *******, As long as the program is not to automatize all the action or to allow you to use 1 key to use many different sequences, the program should be fine. You can find our blog article on third party program at this address: http://eu.battle.net/support/en/article/hacks-and-third-party-programsRegards, Ghindarionn English Game Master Team Blizzard Europe
And: You're left handed, and on that side of the keyboard, I get it, it kind of makes sense, that one key gap is an ok place for the thumb. But the gap is huge on the right side of the keyboard. I've tried both methods, and rebinding (rewiring) the keys is just plain better in my personal experience.
I'll keep looking for ways to improve the right handed use of this system for myself, good luck to you guys too. |
| | Fortune favors the prepared mind |
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| Antylamon United States. July 29 2012 02:40. Posts 1372 | Profile # |
1. Those one/two keys are both removed so Alt is easier to hit, making cameras easier to set.
2. Those one/two keys are difficult for me to hit with my thumb; about as hard as alt. What would you use those keys for? Control group can't be set w/o the ability to also hit ctrl. If it was a command, such as patrol, it would be difficult to use shift with it. If it was a camera, it would be difficult to set (shift+win key?) AND difficult to use.
Honestly, it would work best as a camera, but there are already 3 free cameras in better positions. If you consistently do 2-base/3-base all-ins as well as willing to do this extensive modification, you could get rid of 4th and 5th base keys and instead make them free cameras between ctrl and alt. Just 4th for lefties.
3. Both methods are not tournament legal, nevertheless. I really hope I don't need to tell you why at this point.
I will admit that you could possibly use these methods for online tournaments, such as every single tournament besides MLG/NASL/etc. TSL4 is a big example of an online tournament. (which I will be watching in about 15 minutes  )
EDIT: Defensive? Dah fuq?
I'm being aggressive 
Seriously though, what do you do with those keys? Ability? Hatch to Lair upgrade? Control group? Camera?Last edit: 2012-07-29 02:55:40 |
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| JaKaTaK United States. July 29 2012 02:55. Posts 1417 | Profile Blog # |
@Siirath
That is insane... So we can use sharpkeys to rebind keys and it is okay with Blizzard... wow. If tournaments make that legal, then I will definitely be considering an even more customized (if less convenient) layout for the really hardcore folk who want that kind of edge. I really hope that happens actually because that sounds like a really fun project to me :D
To be clear, I did not intend to come off as defensive. Sometimes it gets irritating answering the same questions over and over again, especially when the answers are in the FAQ, Data Doc, or videos. But i understand that the OP isn't as clear as it could be and when we're ready for TheCore 1.0 a lot of time will be devoted to making it more user friendly. In the meantime I will work on communicating better, sorry for the miscommunication. |
| | Imagination is more important than knowlege |
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| Antylamon United States. July 29 2012 02:59. Posts 1372 | Profile # |
On July 29 2012 02:55 JaKaTaK wrote:
@Siirath
That is insane... So we can use sharpkeys to rebind keys and it is okay with Blizzard... wow. If tournaments make that legal, then I will definitely be considering an even more customized (if less convenient) layout for the really hardcore folk who want that kind of edge. I really hope that happens actually because that sounds like a really fun project to me :D
To be clear, I did not intend to come off as defensive. Sometimes it gets irritating answering the same questions over and over again, especially when the answers are in the FAQ, Data Doc, or videos. But i understand that the OP isn't as clear as it could be and when we're ready for TheCore 1.0 a lot of time will be devoted to making it more user friendly. In the meantime I will work on communicating better, sorry for the miscommunication.
I hear you about the irritation :/
I think it might actually be usable in tournaments if you can find a keyboard with a driver that allows you to rebind keys. I don't know if such a thing exists. Hell, I don't know if tournaments would change their rules to encompass it or not. We'll see, though.
But until someone can tell me a good hotkey to place on those two keys, I'm not convinced enough to modify my registry or rewire my keyboard.Last edit: 2012-07-29 03:02:56 |
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| Siirath Netherlands. July 29 2012 03:41. Posts 13 | Profile # |
But until someone can tell me a good hotkey to place on those two keys, I'm not convinced enough to modify my registry or rewire my keyboard.
I get that it can be irritating also. I did search this massive thread for other people who might have had the same question, but didn't check any FAQ or Data Doc.
The keys I placed there were just the alt and shift so that I have spacebar - alt - alt - shift - ctrl, with my thumb resting on the shift, I can easily move to alt or ctrl. |
| | Fortune favors the prepared mind |
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| Antylamon United States. July 29 2012 05:03. Posts 1372 | Profile # |
On July 29 2012 03:41 Siirath wrote:
Show nested quote +But until someone can tell me a good hotkey to place on those two keys, I'm not convinced enough to modify my registry or rewire my keyboard.
I get that it can be irritating also. I did search this massive thread for other people who might have had the same question, but didn't check any FAQ or Data Doc. The keys I placed there were just the alt and shift so that I have spacebar - alt - alt - shift - ctrl, with my thumb resting on the shift, I can easily move to alt or ctrl.
So shift is on the Windows key? (or whichever key is closer to ctrl; don't have a keyboard in front of me)
Imo that ruins the entire concept of the hand position. Having the thumb over both ctrl and shift is extremely useful and comfortable for me, not to mention for camera recalling. However, if you put alt on the closest key to ctrl, that would make alt slightly more accessible as well as keeping ctrl and shift under the thumb. That means much less movement of the thumb. Nothing too big, since alt isn't used incredibly often, but it's beneficial nonetheless.
I might try it when I get home... in a week... T_T
Last edit: 2012-07-29 05:05:24 |
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 Hetz July 29 2012 06:05. Posts 196 | Profile # |
Great thread, great layout system!
I use ZRMM. My question is how to spam? I mean, what combination of buttons do you people run through just to keep things fluent (so more to check and not to accidentally make stuff)?
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| Snoodles July 29 2012 14:32. Posts 393 | Profile # |
Update: I'm at the point of no return: my core isn't as fast as I was at my fastest with my old layout(grid), but if I try to play with grid now it feels awkward and uncomfortable. It's really grown on me.
I didnt see this answered in the OP, unless I'm a moron: I installed a terran layout (TRMM). I also like to play protoss from time to time and I find it to be usable, but some keys are in weird places that where I dont know if theyre meant to be. What am I missing by not using the dedicated protoss layout? I already tried zerg too and it's totally unplayable with TRMM. Is it worth it to just learn random layout from the start? Last edit: 2012-07-29 14:34:22 |
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| JaKaTaK United States. July 29 2012 23:21. Posts 1417 | Profile Blog # |
On July 29 2012 14:32 Snoodles wrote:
Update: I'm at the point of no return: my core isn't as fast as I was at my fastest with my old layout(grid), but if I try to play with grid now it feels awkward and uncomfortable. It's really grown on me.
I didnt see this answered in the OP, unless I'm a moron: I installed a terran layout (TRMM). I also like to play protoss from time to time and I find it to be usable, but some keys are in weird places that where I dont know if theyre meant to be. What am I missing by not using the dedicated protoss layout? I already tried zerg too and it's totally unplayable with TRMM. Is it worth it to just learn random layout from the start?
You don't need to change layouts to off race as a terran player. Basically the zerg and protoss hotkeys in TRMM are made so that they align best and are consistent with the terran hotkeys so off-racing is easier. The difference in speed is only really worth is for your main race, IMO. But you could technically play each optimized version. I'd imagine this would be tricky but have absolutely no data concerning someone who switches layouts for each race, so if you're feeling adventurous, give it a shot :D |
| | Imagination is more important than knowlege |
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| ImDasMustache United States. July 30 2012 05:54. Posts 2 | Profile # |
On July 29 2012 06:05 Hetz wrote:
Great thread, great layout system!
I use ZRMM. My question is how to spam? I mean, what combination of buttons do you people run through just to keep things fluent (so more to check and not to accidentally make stuff)?
I cycle through my camera's (main, natural and third base) select my hatch the select larva and then work through all my group keys which I have half of set as my hatch and half as my overlord. I just go through that until I have real, useful, actions that I can do. |
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| FoxyMayhem July 30 2012 07:18. Posts 618 | Profile Blog # |
I've long wanted to use AutoHotkey scripts to solve the shift issue. The problem I've run into is allowing people to type after without driving them nuts.
I've considered designing custom SC2 hardware and then approaching steel series about manufacturing... I've got some really awesome ideas.
I wasn't being defensive either, sorry if it came across that way. We really do appreciate suggestions!Last edit: 2012-07-30 07:18:43 |
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| poeticEnnui United States. July 30 2012 09:09. Posts 71 | Profile # |
| Foxy, this is somewhat irrelevant to The Core, but JaK told me that you used the QGMLWY (or another such) Carpalx keyboard layout? How's that working out for you, anyway? |
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| Kaz_Coaching United States. July 30 2012 13:40. Posts 83 | Profile # |
Using ZRM, on a mechanical keyboard brown switch, with a stabalizer bar for shift, I find ctrl + shift to be somewhat strainful on the thumb. I'll keep trying to see if my hand becomes used to it, but it will definatly limit how many games I can play. I'm somewhat doubtful this will work because of the extra strain.
Definatly have to agree with everyone about I for queen tumors and J for spreading creep tumors. Would be easier to keep them both the same button, which would probably be I. |
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