[H] TvZ Ohana vs roach+3rd

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I think this is by far the most popular ZvT opening on the Korean ladder right now... the number of roaches varies, as does whether they make lings/get speed or not, but the basic idea is to come with 7-8 roaches and just kill careless terrans or otherwise do some damage while expanding.

Early game thoughts:

- Did not intend to let the engineering bay finish, I guess you can't cancel construction with esc anymore.
- Not sure whether sending the hellions to counter was the right choice or not. Probably should have just right clikced them behind his main mineral line tho, since no spine in range then.

Mid game:
Lately zergs stopped taking the high ground base as their 4th, which makes it a bit less easy to decide how to push I think... I think I should not be sending my tanks for the right hand poke. I think I should probably switch which part of my army I'm sending to whcih place as well, send the tanks/marines towards 11 and sneak a dropship around the back towards his 3rd.
- Poor tank retention.

Late game:
- Somehow I'm pretty much caught up around 23 min, but he has a looot of infestors. I think I have to make ghosts so I get academy, but never get any ghosts out.
- I should have remade my bunker at 3rd, and there should be a supply wall covering that area in the first place.

After the counter I think I'm dead.

Thoughts on what I should be doing differently? I feel like a lot of my TvZs on Ohana go exactly like this....

Last edit: 2012-06-04 00:50:13

tell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n Formerly FrozenArbiter

Anvil666 Germany. June 03 2012 22:04. Posts 81

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While I wouldn't dare to give advice to a Progamer, let me just say that THIS is exactly the reason why Liquid and TL will always be my favorite place for starcraft. It's so awesome to see pros asking the community for advice. Nice move there, Jinro!

kinsky Germany. June 03 2012 22:15. Posts 181

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what anvil said!
sry jinro, also not able to give you proper advice, since i´m a diamond scrub.

vBr Sweden. June 03 2012 22:26. Posts 175

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I tried to answer this question with the thread A New Era of TvZ Openers (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=336867) but was rather unsuccesful.

I am still of a mind that Banshees are the correct answer, a unit that you successfully deployed in this replay. However, a banshee requires 6 hits to kill a roach, which makes it an inefficient defender. The true answer is ofcourse siege tanks, but a non-meching player would rather spend his gas elsewhere at this point. Hm.

An idea that has been floating in and out of my mind has been to make a bunker at the zergs third (or outside natural on a map like Antiga where that is possible) to delay the third as long as possible. Think I encountered this idea first from qxc. You accomplish this, however, with your eng bay but thats an idea you might want to consider. For one, the bunker isn't simply killed by a few lings like the eng bay is.

Game assessment:
The early third in main is also something that I don't see favourably at. My mentality for terran is that our strength doesn't lie in superior economy but rather tech/armyforce and upgrades, which is why I rather get double upgrades and delay the third a little. I trust you didn't see his newly built third, which is why you sent your banshees to his natural and lost them there. Going for the third would have been the safer option.

Getting caught at the opponents fourth at 18.00 was plain stupid. I guess you assumed it was there, which is why you made the comment about the new fourth location. Mass roaches requires more tanks. At that point, you attack with 3 tanks vs 20 roaches. His roachnumber is almost equal to your marines and marines are not the ideal unit against Roaches. I really love making a ton of tanks. They are good against almost everything and provide excellent support, so a 16 min 2nd factory like yours just doesn't sit right with me.

Throughout the game, you queue up alot of units rather than adding more production. At 16 min you add your second factory and at 22 min you add more raxes. Until then you are producing from 5 raxes and 1 Factory, something that you can easily accomplish off of two bases, so the third didn't really help you very much (which is also why I don't like that super early third, I feel it's hard to gauge the correct number of buildings that I can supply and I start floating a ton of minerals early on).

You lost the game when he counter attacked and crushed your economy. Had that not happened, you would have won. The broodlords came at a perfect time which allowed him to send those lings without fearing for losing anything really important. Bad luck and bad timing, you need to know when the broodlords come and be prepared.

Last edit: 2012-06-03 22:48:01

naggerNZ New Zealand. June 03 2012 22:36. Posts 700

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It seems to me you might be over-thinking this. Considering how greedy your opener was (fast double gas, reactored hellions into cloaked banshee into fast siege tanks), it seems reasonable that a roach opening such as this will do damage, and its not like you took more damage than you should have in this situation.

A number of unfavourable engagements in the mid-game put you way behind in economy, which meant you weren't able to keep up with the late-game tech switch from Zerg. Your marines were 3-3, but you only every got 1-0 on Vehicles and 1-0 on Air, and you were at least 40+ harvesters behind from this point on.

There isn't really a lot of advice I can think of except to note that you were floating gas the entire game, so maybe it's worth getting a second Armory and pre-emptively getting those Vehicle upgrades and Ship weapons. Also, more Orbitals, more scans, less getting caught unsieged.

ohampatu United States. June 03 2012 22:41. Posts 1427

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On June 03 2012 22:26 vBr wrote:
I tried to answer this question with the thread A New Era of TvZ Openers (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=336867) but was rather unsuccesful.

I am still of a mind that Banshees are the correct answer, a unit that you successfully deployed in this replay. However, a banshee requires 6 hits to kill a roach, which makes it an inefficient defender. The true answer is ofcourse siege tanks, but a non-meching player would rather spend his gas elsewhere at this point. Hm.

An idea that has been floating in and out of my mind has been to make a bunker at the zergs third (or outside natural on a map like Antiga where that is possible) to delay the third as long as possible. Think I encountered this idea first from qxc. You accomplish this, however, with your eng bay but thats an idea you might want to consider. For one, the bunker isn't simply killed by a few lings like the eng bay is.

Anyway the main input I can provide is to check out the thread.

Are you recommending for him to drop a early-ish bunker at the third with like his scouting scv? and run like 2 marines over to stay in it? If he isn't putting marines in the bunker, i think ebay is the correct answer as long as its cancelled. One thing you want to remember, and it might not work on Ohana, but the zerg can always choose a different third. I know in tvz taking a weird third leaves you susceptible to tank pushes, but on Daybreak for instance i could see the zerg taking a different third, and clearing out the bunker whenever he feels like it without being super far behind. On ohana with limited expansions i could see it working and not working. Terran would either be succesfull in keeping Zerg on two bases, or Zerg would crush it and prevent Terran from every taking his third.

I am become death, for I am the destroyer of worlds.....You will be missed KT Violet!!!

vBr Sweden. June 03 2012 22:47. Posts 175

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On June 03 2012 22:41 ohampatu wrote:

Show nested quote +

Are you recommending for him to drop a early-ish bunker at the third with like his scouting scv? and run like 2 marines over to stay in it? If he isn't putting marines in the bunker, i think ebay is the correct answer as long as its cancelled. One thing you want to remember, and it might not work on Ohana, but the zerg can always choose a different third. I know in tvz taking a weird third leaves you susceptible to tank pushes, but on Daybreak for instance i could see the zerg taking a different third, and clearing out the bunker whenever he feels like it without being super far behind. On ohana with limited expansions i could see it working and not working. Terran would either be succesfull in keeping Zerg on two bases, or Zerg would crush it and prevent Terran from every taking his third.

Yeah this idea is probably not too great on this map, the idea is chiefly interesting on like Antiga when there is only one path to the third and you cant bypass the bunker. Basically you rally the first 4 rins there and make bunker downstairs between nat and third. Then you send your hellions there and you have like a staging area. However, it doesn't really solve the Roach issue because that area can be taken out with the 7-8 roaches :'(. Still. Food for thought.

naggerNZ New Zealand. June 03 2012 22:52. Posts 700

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On June 03 2012 22:47 vBr wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yeah this idea is probably not too great on this map, the idea is chiefly interesting on like Antiga when there is only one path to the third and you cant bypass the bunker. Basically you rally the first 4 rins there and make bunker downstairs between nat and third. Then you send your hellions there and you have like a staging area. However, it doesn't really solve the Roach issue because that area can be taken out with the 7-8 roaches :'(. Still. Food for thought.

It would stop a super fast third, but at a standard third timing it isn't a good idea. Assuming you dropped the bunker at the third and snuck 2 marines across the map, it wouldn't really accomplish much. With correct micro, 8 lings and a drone could kill a bunker without losing many (if any) lings. Not to mention the fact you want to do this super efficiently, which means you have to take the marines out of the bunker in time to salvage the bunker, which makes it even easier to kill. And you will lose the two marines. So best case scenario you trade 125 minerals for maybe 100 minerals of lings at best, AND it requires more apm to do. An engi-bay can be cancelled right at the last minute, and has a lot more health.

Last edit: 2012-06-03 22:54:25

Th1rdEye United States. June 03 2012 23:05. Posts 809

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Not a bad game. This zerg is pretty good-- i like how he uses roach midgame and continues to use them later in the game when it's appropriate. Muta first into infestor is strong as well, not sure if that was just to counter what you had and get map control or not.. along with the 4 queen opening.

You played pretty well too. I think you need to use more dropships when his muta counter was lower. It's really important as terran because it divides his army, messes up drone saturation.. and most importantly:

it buys you the third and forgotten resource, TIME! Time to build your army, Time to get in position, Time to siege your tanks in his face!

Don't forget, when you're a zerg player.. dealing with drops takes away from your apm which is less time spreading creep, less time moving army, less time injecting, less time mining too.

Granted, some zerg use a lot of defense structures for combatting drops or have units around their base-- but if you look at this zerg, you could have exploited his lack of defense. Especially on Ohana with a lot of air space behind the bases.

I'm not sure if you scouted his third right away? I didn't check for that in replay, but having a mentality that he's still on 2 base when he's on 3 can make a big difference. The roach opening is pretty strong against what you did, but you could have definitely walled off your ramp with a bunker and took very little damage from that. Don't forget the importance of blocking off!
If zerg is doing aggression I would always suggest more than 1 bunker if possible as well. The hellion counter is a decent decision in this situation if you know you can do damage. If not, they help a lot for picking off speedlings that are rallied. I'd keep them at your natural area avoiding roaches or distracting them as long as possible, buying you more time to get set up.

Id check your build around 12:00. Your macro is pretty much nonexistent at this point, you have 3 rax and 2 tech labs... You should add the rax earlier for sure.. Floating 1k+ mins right now. This is right at the point he's taking his third and making lots of drones. I think this point in your midgame play could be tightened up a bit, no offense of course because you're obviously really good

Also, take a look at your medivac production throughout the game

You missed a loooooot of potential air units. Medivacs are big against zerg! Your starport was idle for minutes. I would get a second starport so you can get vikings and medivacs at the same time and spend gas better.

You should have had a bunker at your third base in a good spot to stop ling run bys. He did a lot of damage from counter attacks. If it's an orbital, you need a bunker! You started to really fall behind in harvesters.

I think you really need more barracks as well. 7 Rax with 3 tech labs isn't enough marine production to keep up with a zerg. Especially once you get a 4th base.. you should be able to support 10 rax no problem, especially since humans aren't perfect and terran macro can get hard.

I tend to forget about the math in late game scnearios, because having enough production facilities is huge to be able to keep up with zerg. Even if you technically "can't" support "x" barracks on "x" bases, I think that being able to make a ton of units in a short period of time to combat a zerg remax or tech switch is much more beneficial than having too many barracks once your money is spent.

Last edit: 2012-06-03 23:21:20

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Sianos June 03 2012 23:16. Posts 528

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Hi Jinro,

i´ll watch the replay and give some thoughts, maybe they´ll help you.

7:10: Supply block for 40 seconds

8:40: You see that your opponent has build at least 10 Roaches and still haven´t taken a 3rd base. You only rely on banshees+Marines+Hellions at that moment, so building another 1 or 2 Bunkers at your natrual would have helped aggainst the Roach ling push and you wouldn´t have taken that many damage. I also don´t think, that i like the idea of running in with your Hellions. You have already seen, that your opponent has a lot of Queens and the natrual itself hasn´t much space. If you had pulled them back, they could have helped you a lot aggainst the Zerglings.

10:00: That Roach ling push did a lot of damage. It´s 30 workers aggainst his 50. You can say this is ok, because you have 3 Mules now, but you could have been in a better position if you just had pulled back your Hellions and build 1-2 Bunkers. Also you just start your transition into Marine, Tank, Medivac after that attack, which is quite late in my opinion. You also have just started your +1+1 and no Combat Shield and no Stim. I´m not sure whether it would be better to go with mech in that position, but maybe some other people can argue about this with a bit more experience than me. I also think it would have been a good idea to build some Vikings at this point, because you have seen that your opponent spend a lot of Gas in his Roach attack. With this you could have cleared a lot of overlords arround the bases.

13:30: Your banshee attack did quite well, but you lost your raven, which could be avoided. With the raven you could have cleared all the creep after you killed the Queens.

15:00: Look at the minimap and the vision you both have. The Zerg can see the whole map and you can only see your base, so this attack caught you by surprise. If he had a bigger army at this moment, you could have lost your 3rd at this point. The Vikings i mentioned earlier in combination with the clearing of the creep would have split the vision of the map in 2 halves, which is imo better for taking an expandtion than having no only vision about your own base.

17:00: You start your attack, but the creep already has reached your base on there are overlords everywhere. The attack would have way more surprise if you had cleared the overlords and the creep in the early game as mentioned, so it comes that he caught you of guard a second time. Your rallypoint for your Drop also was a bit of. It flew through a Queen and a Spore and died before unloading all the Marines.

18:00: Your split attack was a nice idea, but you were caught of guard too. Because of his awesome mapcontrol, he could see every movement of yours and react proberly. To your question: I´m not sure wehther i would split the army differently, but in my opinion it really comes down to the mapcontrol your opponent had. Maybe to the same kind of attack in another game again, but be sure to keep more mapcontrol in the early game and see how it works diferently.

23:00: It´s good, that you could take a 4th base, but the Zerg already was at 5 bases at this moment, so he has plenty of gas. After that your position becomes worse and worse, a Zerg with this many gas and minerals banked is quite hard to break.

Summary: I think the loss mostly resulted from the few "mistakes" in the early game. The Roach ling attack, shouldn´t have dealt this many damage and the Zerg shouldn´t be able to have the mapcontrol that mapcontrol while doing a roach ling push.

Hope this helped a bit, what does the community think about my feedback?

Liquid`Jinro Sweden. June 03 2012 23:25. Posts 32587

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The early third in main is also something that I don't see favourably at. My mentality for terran is that our strength doesn't lie in superior economy but rather tech/armyforce and upgrades, which is why I rather get double upgrades and delay the third a little. I trust you didn't see his newly built third, which is why you sent your banshees to his natural and lost them there. Going for the third would have been the safer option.

The bottleneck early on tends to be gas not minerals, so I'm not sure 2 engineering bays before CC would actually even be possible to use after you've started tanks and banshees?

Also, it's by far the most standard follow up among korean terrans so I feel like it's pretty likely to be the correct move, even though I also do not feel like I can utilize it as much as I would like (I feel like I end up landing my 3rd absurdly late in a lot of my games).

@Bunker idea, I don't think it works with a reactor build, because you cant make more marines while it's building so you end up with no marines at home. I could see it working with a build that got a later reactor, so you had more marines (for example 1 rax cc with 1 fast gas before 2nd depot).

More later.

I'm not sure if you scouted his third right away? I didn't check for that in replay, but having a mentality that he's still on 2 base when he's on 3 can make a big difference. The roach opening is pretty strong against what you did, but you could have definitely walled off your ramp with a bunker and took very little damage from that. Don't forget the importance of blocking off!
If zerg is doing aggression I would always suggest more than 1 bunker if possible as well. The hellion counter is a decent decision in this situation if you know you can do damage. If not, they help a lot for picking off speedlings that are rallied. I'd keep them at your natural area avoiding roaches or distracting them as long as possible, buying you more time to get set up

Did not scout his 3rd, if I remember correctly I thought he double expanded because of the blocked 3rd.

Blocking off the ramp is OK vs no-gas, but it's been really popular lately on KR ladder for players to do ling run-bys, where it is much more easy to defend if you have the bunker next to your cc. Also easier for your scvs to reach in time... Something I could have done tho, is lifted my cc to provide more surface area for my scvs to repair.... Hm.

Last edit: 2012-06-03 23:29:50

tell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n Formerly FrozenArbiter

eg9 Norway. June 04 2012 00:30. Posts 28

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Thoghts on the game:

I like ur style but there are definately some things that need improvement. From the moment you first scouted the roaches leaving his base(the latest you should ever scout it) to the moment he attacked your natural ~40 seconds passed. In these 40 seconds there are a lot of things you could have tried doing. You could have built more bunkers in your nat or you could have retreated all your stuff into your main and held him off at your main ramp, both the banshees and the siege tanks once they are out should discourage any contain.I think retreating into your main would prob have been the best option as it would retain a bigger number of your scv's, is safer and only costs the one supply-depot in the nat.

When your raven banshee attack was successful(so awesome btw) you prob could have tried focusing his nat as those banshees are already pretty commited to the attack and a couple of drone kills hardly pays for the cost of the banshees(especially seeing as a midgame zerg can reproduce those drones so fast).

Another thing(that always hurts my soul when watching your stream or other games) is how you move your army. Stimming forward the marine is definately awesome but you need to know/react to his army movements sooner than you normally do. In almost all of your engagements your tanks finish sieging up right arround the time his lings are next to your army. You see this in the push at 17minutes. You stim the marine forward and take the watchtower but you do not check its vision before moving your tanks into uncharted territory and that leads to another unwanted trade(only costs you a tank this time but i have seen it cost you games many times before).

The following push from the watchtower was a really bad idea tbh. There feels like the amount of "correct" decisions you can do at a time where you are so far behind is limited, but moving 3tanks, 22marines and 3medivacs into zerg teritory at a time when he should be nearing maxed with almost any build seems like a rather silly decision but i guess it was not so thought out.

Thoughts on TvZ Ohana:

Your natural sim-city was pretty awesome and coupled with 1 or 2 siege tanks and reinforcements planted in your third you could probably hold most counters nicely. I think on ohana trying to take a rather quick 4th and focusing your push from your 4th towards 11 seems pretty strong and allows you to try to gain watch-tower control(on his side of the map) or threaten his main with drops. The weakness of this is probably the lack of map-precence on the right side of the map leading to crazy creep-spread all the way down to your main. This does not reflect on the amount of bases though as you will be able to deny him from taking the base under your main with siege-tanks and drops. I dont know if you are comfortable with a map split but ohana seems like a good map to try and split the map vertically.

Best of luck to you sir!

zmansman17 United States. June 04 2012 00:47. Posts 2181

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I disagree with some of what was stated by other posters. The 3rd OC is certainly necessary and seems to be common on KR. Also, if you take a lot of damage from a Zerg all-in such as this, you are not entirely out of the game and can come back because of the OC.

One idea to defend:

I think one possible response would simply be to lift your natural OC to main, upon seeing the Roach with your first banshee, and then to bunker or double bunker the top of your main ramp. If you shift attack click the roaches, the roaches will take fire as they approach your base.

In this instance, you would at least save most, if not all, of your natural SCVS, even if you lose both refineries and the depot at your natural. However, if the Zerg ventures to kill these buildings, they are likely to lose all of their roaches from banshee fire. Then you should be able to hold and well ahead (With similar SCV count with few killed and the 3rd OC). I really think that would be the biggest advice for that first push which put you behind.

Last edit: 2012-06-04 00:49:03

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storkman United States. June 04 2012 01:11. Posts 157

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Hello i'm only a masters terran but ill do my best to give helpful advise <3

Me personally on this map ill scout with the scv that finishes my rack but that's really up to you I doubt it really affected your build.

Your Bo is weird so ill tell you how i do it in order
Oc
Marine
scv(mule)
double gas
depo
marine
scv(should be 19 supply)
then bunker when you're floating minerals(put it close to your ramp so if they do attack with roach you can cover expansion and ramp)

I think the engineering bay is a good idea if they scout you are gas less expoing but it really slows down the timing of your first 2 hellions

You did make bunker at your nat so disregard what i said

Your scvs weren't on auto repair so your bunker died without even repairing.. Bring hellions back there's no point sending them in when you already have seen his spine and multiple queens

If someone said that the triple orbital build was bad well its the only reason why you even had a chance this game.

Added 4th and 5th rax late but yes it can be hard microing banshees and macroing at the same time

Armory comes late kills the fact that you went double ups

Why did you move out pre 2-2 and 1-0 for your tanks?

I think when you're that far behind i would dig in deep wait till about 180 supply then move out

Went double engineering bays and your 3-3 finishes at 23 minutes

something went wrong here

I really hate to critique someone better than me but i feel like your lacking the concept of your own build. You go double engineering bay and a fast third, wouldn't your goal be to get a big mid to lateish game army and push? Not a 140 supply 20 marines 3 tank 16 minute army. Way too aggressive with your main army ball be aggressive with drops. The loss in your natural never really should of happened if you see 8 roaches incoming and you know his main is protected fall back and play some defence. Hope any of this helps <3

OH YEAH

Rulker United States. June 04 2012 02:50. Posts 1395

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Early game the roach push litterally mauled you and you were down like 4-800 in income for a few minutes, while he kept expanding.

The banshee opening is ok strong but ohana is a map with such narrow chokes a stronger build is 3cc with faster tanks. because with ThorZaIN's 3cc opening siege mode and 2 tanks are completed by 8:10-8:20, and in your game the roach pressure began at ~9:30.

With the banshee hellion openings you litterally don't have enough time to get defenses that will stop that roach pressure without losing so many scvs, and either way in the long run the banshee/raven stuff isnt as effective at stopping creep if the zerg 4queens and then makes extras to combat banshees.

In the early game if you get 6 hellions over 4 you can deny creep spread (as long as you go in with all hellions at once) even though queens have the ridiculous range now. Queens are pretty easy to snipe also.

You should use more economical openings like 3cc because the timinsg on it are way better,.

3cc) 15 minutes: anywhere from 160 to maxed on supply, 2-2 +1 on mech and combat shields finishing up, hellions have been pressuring and denying the third or creep spread.

Your going to be pushing when the first medivacs pop.

Banshee hellion opening) 15 minutes) 104 supply in your game, 2-2 just starting ,third base just landing.

Banshee hellion openings seem like they pressure alot but your midgame followup is INCREDIBLY delayed/weaker.

Later-midgame/late-game

You need 3 starports and to get an extra armory

your vehicle weapons were +1 insteaad of +3 and you should start at least +1 on air.

vBr Sweden. June 04 2012 02:59. Posts 175

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On June 04 2012 00:47 zmansman17 wrote:
I disagree with some of what was stated by other posters. The 3rd OC is certainly necessary and seems to be common on KR. Also, if you take a lot of damage from a Zerg all-in such as this, you are not entirely out of the game and can come back because of the OC.

One idea to defend:

I think one possible response would simply be to lift your natural OC to main, upon seeing the Roach with your first banshee, and then to bunker or double bunker the top of your main ramp. If you shift attack click the roaches, the roaches will take fire as they approach your base.

In this instance, you would at least save most, if not all, of your natural SCVS, even if you lose both refineries and the depot at your natural. However, if the Zerg ventures to kill these buildings, they are likely to lose all of their roaches from banshee fire. Then you should be able to hold and well ahead (With similar SCV count with few killed and the 3rd OC). I really think that would be the biggest advice for that first push which put you behind.

This is true, but Koreans arent famous for their tactical mastermind. In general, koreans find a suitable style and perfect it without many questions asked. Just because a korean does something, it is not necessarily the right thing so your argument has a vital flaw.

Also, in this game the third orbital is totally wasted and this is the game we are commenting on. How is it vital?

babysimba June 04 2012 03:18. Posts 798

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Not sure if this small observation of unit composition might help.

Foreigner terrans (thorzains vs monster in dreamhack comes to my mind) tend to never add marauders into their army, even after gas has free-ed up after completion of 3-3 upgrades. Korean terrans always try to add some marauders even if there are no ultras. They are pretty good at tanking (banes & surface area for fungals).

Koreans also tend to prioritize bio & medivac production over tank production. They use tanks like support units for targeting firing banelings and infestors at the back. I think it will be easier to retain more tanks if you have more meat in your bio.

I'm quite sure the best thing those hellions could do during the attack was cutting off ling reinforcement.

iTzSnypah United States. June 04 2012 03:30. Posts 1207

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With the popularity of ling/infestor, the queen buff and the straight line attack path of Ohana marine tank just loses its appeal.

Your opponent opened 4queen (before making more after seeing banshee's). Creep spread in a straight line is pretty fast. By the time you stabilize your 3rd and start to push, The creep is already to your Xel'naga Tower (His creep spread wasn't even that good). This is at 17:12. Now imagine playing against TLO and his ridiculous creep spread. You have to push basically the WHOLE map before you can actually force the Zerg to be defensive.

I think getting banshee's is too much of a gamble on this map. Your first banshee pop's at 7:40. Your opponent already has creep connecting bases with starting the creep spread to his future 3rd. He makes more queens after seeing the banshee. Which survive and help creep it up.

Getting an early factory is pointless against zerg anymore. Opening 14cc into bio and not making any tanks until 3rd is saturated is what I think TvZ on Ohana will turn into. Bio just lets you be agressive (see MKP vs DRG MLG Winter Arena) and on a small map its king.

Last edit: 2012-06-04 03:31:11

Team Liquid needs more Terrans.

Facultyadjutant Sweden. June 04 2012 03:59. Posts 1158

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What do you think of bombers game vs stephano?

Was just like you described, of course you maybe want another opening/transition capabilites tech wise

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tjosan Sweden. June 04 2012 04:34. Posts 120

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Hello Jinro! I try to play the same opening (albeit at a much lower level) and I find it much easier to deal with such roach pressure if I always (unless definitely scouting something different) make a second tech lab on my barracks after switching the first to the starport, and start making at least one marauder (which can be cancelled subsequently if you gain scouting knowledge of course). Call it a safe guard, and a way to perhaps add a bit of extra punch to your 1/1 push/pressure to keep denying the third.

[edit] Of course this delays your tank by a minute or so, but as you said doing siege pushes through his fourth is less enticing now because of change expansion patterns. Defending any roach ling bling attacks after floating your third requires some good sim-city and a bit of micro but should be doable with hellions, banshees and a bunker behind your third mineral cordoned off by a supply depot or two.

[edit2] At least, unless you delay your third for faster tanks like bomber does, you dont lose much by making the tech lab right away and leaving it on the barracks until you want to switch to tanks anyway.

Last edit: 2012-06-04 04:57:00

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