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| MarcH United Kingdom. June 03 2012 23:57. Posts 349 | Profile # |
Watching the replay I think your were aggressive way to long off of 5 rax.By the time your third was mining ( it sat idle as a CC with no SCV's or mules their for some time) he had his up and mining for the best part of 7 minutes so why you were trading more cost effectively than him, he could more afford to trade those units due to his much larger income and ability to resupply so quickly.
If you want to be aggressive in that situation then I would try the 7 rax style DeMuslim and Thorzain have been using recently (more players may be doing this but those are the main pro's I have seen doing it) as with the extra units and better Medivac rallies you could well have just crushed his army destroyed his third and marched up to his nat to end the game (see Demu vs Hasuobs in the NASL for the style Im on about).
The other option is to get your Third up much sooner than you did in this game and then get a fast Fourth base whilst applying pressure off of only 3 rax focus more on economy so you can trade much more evenly with him and do everything you can to stop him getting additional bases. Add on extra Orbitals and sac SCV's and use a ton of ghosts. You can then keep trading Army's with him and you should eventually come out on top unless you have an awful engagement because as long as your trading evenly if your ahead on bases he will run out of money before you.
Short version, You went too middle of the road with your aggression and expanding you should commit to either Army or Econ much more and you could have won that game.Last edit: 2012-06-04 00:04:39 |
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| teamamerica United States. June 04 2012 00:02. Posts 660 | Profile Blog # |
I think you should have been able to win by 12:30. Despite getting supply blocked 2x and throwing up 2 bunkers (just saying it slowed down your timing), and throwing down your factory about 15 seconds late, you were in a good position by then.
However your medivacs are misrallied, your macro slips, and you take this time to thrown down addons in the middle of the battle. You queue maruders and don't always produce 4 marines (or could have been 6 if you didn't make addons mid battle), and so he very narrowly holds. Sure each time it's only a few seconds but it adds up to like 10 missed marines, a few missed maruders, and add that up to the troops you had at 12:30 (+ the 2 or 3 medivac you lost then) and I think he would have lost his 3rd.
Just my thoughts, gl hf Jinro! |
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| BronzeKnee United States. June 04 2012 00:09. Posts 2633 | Profile # |
On June 03 2012 23:49 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 23:47 Tassadarstarcraft2 wrote:
i m almost eu gm and i ve got to say
the hardest pvt is the lategame with planetarys and mass ghosts,sensortowers, mass vikings,gasworkers+mules,etc
i always think the terrans just should be practicing that and play it
it works the best on maps like daybreak and shakuras
tvp is getting harder for the terran, because the protosses figured out the timings when to defend drops and when to move out/expand etc
now terran has to figure out how to play when they are ahead and transition into the lategame
do you get what i want to say? my english is not the best
Yeah you are probably right, I think on a map like Daybreak it might just be that I should cease aggression much sooner than what I did. I used to play it almost purely defensively, but I think that's a mistake as well since it makes life a bit too easy for toss.
Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 23:48 BronzeKnee wrote:
At 11:05 it was 109 to 125 supply with Protoss ahead with Protoss having 67 workers to Terran's 50 (+2 Mules). Protoss also had their third base up at 7:40 and was saturated while the Terran third was still building and at 55%.
Thus the Protoss player is down only 1 supply, with a significant economic advantage by the 11:05 minute mark. I actually haven't finished watching beyond the 11:05 mark yet as I type this, but you're only advantage was in tech (you had +1, combat shield and stim and Medivacs out) and with his 8 Gates worth of production, he can afford inefficient trades with you. I'd say you were quite far behind at this point in the game, and that you never had any advantage before that point either. You misread what he was doing, while his third was building you were throwing down an additional Bunker and Missile Turret at your natural. Additional scouting prior to throwing down that bunker could have changed this game.
Continuing on with the replay now. The battle that ensued went about as well as possible for you because his force fields weren't that great, but you didn't have the Medivacs for a sustained battle and you were on a timer because Charge was about to finish. Again he can afford to trade inefficiently because he has such a large economic advantage.
After the battle ends and you pull back you even out the economic situation and take a supply lead, but he is catching up quite quickly with tech. After a failed drop in his main and an engagement below his center expansion, I'd say the game is even, but your opponent is taking his 4th. Had you hit a timing sooner before storm finished you might be have been able to do significant damage there, but it would have been difficult/almost impossible know when to attack so this is kind of moot point, but the fact when you did attack it was the anti-timing as storm has just finished lead to him evening up the supply.
Fair points, but I don't think you can rely on scouting the 3rd, if the protoss is careful you shouldn't be able to get past the two watchtowers (and you can't really risk chasing away stalkers from the watchtower in case he's about to 4 or 6 gate you). That doesn't mean I shouldnt have tried, obviously  Small risk, great reward.
I accidentally posted before I had finished writing, so I added some more about the rest of the game, but I noted that it was his game to lose. If he had thrown down better forcefields at the initial engagement, then he would (and should) have won the game quite easily. Somehow you have to include some kind of scouting because honestly you should have lost the game there. You only had 1 Medivac so you couldn't escape the forcefields.
Perhaps save a scan, or better yet have your initial scouting SCV sit behind the minerals at the third. Most players don't check there before throwing down such an early third (he did not), especially when they have so few units in the field they can't afford to be out of position vs some early push. And even if they do find your SCV before putting up the third it is then likely they are taking a third base, so you can assume that, or better yet, just use the scan at 7:30 and hit the third instead of the natural with it (I actually think you should scan before throwing down 2nd Bunker but I don't play Terran so I don't know all the timings). At the moment you scanned, he has 1 Zealot, 1 Stalker and 3 Sentries vs 16 Marines, so you might have been able to push with Marines and SCVs and denied the third, or you could have just taken a third of your own at that point.
Finally, you could have pushed out with your Marines in the early game and contested the hold on the Xel Naga on your side of the map. He was only holding it with a Probe. Simply taking it for a short amount of time allows you sneak a SCV along the bottom part of the map which could allow you to scout his third.
I believe that should solve the issue here.Last edit: 2012-06-04 00:31:37 |
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| Notaa Canada. June 04 2012 00:13. Posts 51 | Profile Blog # |
Jinro, have you considered skipping the +1 in your timing? Skipping +1 and engineering bay, so you stay on 2 gas in your main, however this means your attack will be a minute earlier, and when you move out put down 2 eng bays to catch up. I feel like +1 delays the attack so much that the protoss was able to get his 8 gates up with many sentries. The fact that you won the exchange was pretty impressive. But I feel like the +1 only makes a minor difference as stim/shield/shell/medevac were the most important parts of that pressure.
In the last max fight you were at 180 with most of your units still being produced so your standing army was more like 165 food and only 4 ghosts, as a result you weren't able to use EMPs on the archons which makes them close to unkillable. Overall, watch the replay made me feel even worse about TvP  |
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 Liquid`Jinro Sweden. June 04 2012 00:32. Posts 32587 | Profile Blog # |
With regards to scouting, I think something that could be considered is whether it's worth trying to scout the first expansion, since it's very rare for 1 base play on daybreak anyway, so might be better to just keep it hidden and try to find a 3rd.
As for bunker timings/whether to scan nat or 3rd... the problem is you need to scan the nat to see if he has 1) his army there 2) double gas there or not. The bunker is made at 6:20 to finish in time for the 7 min 1 gate nex -> 4 gate timing.
Also, I actually have 2 medivacs in th e first engagement, and could have had 4 if I just met up with the 2 rallied ones.Last edit: 2012-06-04 00:36:35 |
| | tell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n Formerly FrozenArbiter |
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| OtoshimonoU United States. June 04 2012 00:35. Posts 470 | Profile # |
His economy destroyed you.
Your third wasn't mining until 14:30
His third was up and mining at 8:30 |
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| BronzeKnee United States. June 04 2012 00:42. Posts 2633 | Profile # |
| I didn't even think about Protoss going 1 base, I can see why you tried to poke into his natural now. Still you were unable to to scout with your SCV whether he was going for a one base play or not, but at least with the positioning of his units you could pretty much rule out a one gas 4 Gate, but that is one of the least threatening 1 base plays in my opinion, especially with your early Bunker. I think you would be better off contesting the Xel Naga with a Marine early for information (you may be unable to hold it, but if he is really fighting you for it, you get suspicious) and leaving the SCV behind the third. Alternatively, you could drop a Depot or Ebay at the third prior to scouting into the natural. I don't know if that is feasible because I don't play Terran, but I often a Pylon behind the mineral line of my opponents third. Last edit: 2012-06-04 00:44:12 |
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| captainwaffles United States. June 04 2012 00:42. Posts 842 | Profile Blog # |
Okay, I've watched the rep twice now (super excited you posted man, big fan here ^_^).
Early game went pretty well for you, as you said in your OP. I can' think of anything useful to add to this.
Mid game however, the toss player had a eco advantage but you have the tech advantage, in upgrades (1-1 mostly, but the techlab upgrades too) If it were me in this situation I would have stopped after the first attacked, kept on poking and moving back and forth just to show him that given the chance I will pounce like a wolf.
But back at home I think your ghosts could have been much much earlier. I'm finding in my experience against toss lately that midgame agression via drops and multi prong attacks are not working out so well anymore, especially with builds like this, 8 gates off the bat makes them almost drop proof from anything less than a full on committed doom drop. So what do you do? extend your tech advantage and add ghosts (not a few mind you, I'm talking ridiculous amounts, ~20-30 ghosts with the proper medivac/viking support is actually nearly impossible to kill from Protoss, at best they can trade evenly (and on this map you have the center PF to fall back on :D).
I know what I'm saying seems counter intuitive, letting protoss get bigger in economy and tech, but have you ever had 30 ghosts with like 8 medivacs and 16 vikings? (and the rest of supply in bio) Now granted you can't be aggressive and in their face when you do this, but you don't have too, you simply trade so cost efficiently in every engagement and deny a base (so that you're on equal bases or ahead on bases against him).
And if you chilled back with your bio units you can afford macro orbitals once you're maxed or near max, and then you sac scvs and it becomes even harder for protoss to win direct engagements.
I know a lot of what I just said doesn't pertain to specific situations in your game, but tbh I don't see how you win the game the way you're playing with out A) Him fucking up or B) having a massive econ advantage, which you didn't have, he did. So one last time to reiterate, your advantage was in tech I think after you sniped his third base in that multi prong attack would have been a good time to get your ghost/viking count up and prepare for super late game.
I really hope this helps, regardless I'm eagerly awaiting your response. (Jinro Fighting :D)
Edit- Here is a rep from me and my friend, TvP on daybreak. I think it is a good example of a lot of what I'm talking about here. On the other hand you're the progamer so you tell me lol http://drop.sc/190688Last edit: 2012-06-04 00:46:40 |
| | Be excellent to each other. Party on, dudes! |
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| Talin Montenegro. June 04 2012 00:42. Posts 8183 | Profile Blog # |
I have a feeling that from player's perspective it's easy to be happy about that first engagement (and it was pretty well controlled), but the Protoss got a much better deal out of the opening builds / quick 3rd and it was very much playing from behind ever since.
The small window of opportunity after that very first engagement (around his pocket expo) was largely negated by Daybreak rally distance. At the point of your greatest advantage, a third of the Terran army was constantly out of the equation as they were walking towards rally point and it's worth noting that there were also 2 idling Medivacs (one at the watch tower, the other down south) during all this, later there were 4 (3 south).
I don't like the idea of a sustained ground aggression by Terran bio on Daybreak in general, I don't think it uses the map layout to your advantage (quite the contrary). With a long rush distance and a linear base arrangement, dual pronged drops/attacks on the main and third should give Terran more of a chance to do more critical damage (economy, tech) instead of burning 3-base Protoss' minerals (Zealots).
There was a point where you could see his Zealot reinforcements around 12:00 at his third that would indicate 7+ operational warpgates. To me that would have been a sign that there is no more chance of doing much damage with a straight-up frontal assault (even though you actually did end up pushing your advantage there for a little longer).Last edit: 2012-06-04 00:45:58 |
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| Liquid`Jinro Sweden. June 04 2012 00:44. Posts 32587 | Profile Blog # |
On June 04 2012 00:42 BronzeKnee wrote:
I didn't even think about Protoss going 1 base, I can see why you tried to poke into his natural now. Still you were unable to to scout with your SCV whether he was going for a one base play or not, but at least with the positioning of his units you could pretty much rule out a one gas 4 Gate, but that is one of the least threatening 1 base plays in my opinion, especially with your early Bunker. I think you would be better off contesting the Xel Naga with a Marine early for information (you may be unable to hold it, but if he is really fighting you for it, you get suspicious) and leaving the SCV behind the third. Alternatively, you could drop a Depot or Ebay at the third prior to scouting into the natural. I don't know if that is feasible because I don't play Terran, but I often a Pylon behind the mineral line of my opponents third.
You know, i actually like that idea lol
If he takes the 3rd, I see it, worth 100 minerals. If he doesnt take the 3rd, he will likely not see the supply depot for a long time... Pretty interesting move lol
Reminds me of human players in WC3 building scout farms inside other players base just because they took so long to kill :DLast edit: 2012-06-04 00:48:08 |
| | tell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n Formerly FrozenArbiter |
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| ohampatu United States. June 04 2012 00:55. Posts 1431 | Profile # |
On June 04 2012 00:44 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 00:42 BronzeKnee wrote:
I didn't even think about Protoss going 1 base, I can see why you tried to poke into his natural now. Still you were unable to to scout with your SCV whether he was going for a one base play or not, but at least with the positioning of his units you could pretty much rule out a one gas 4 Gate, but that is one of the least threatening 1 base plays in my opinion, especially with your early Bunker. I think you would be better off contesting the Xel Naga with a Marine early for information (you may be unable to hold it, but if he is really fighting you for it, you get suspicious) and leaving the SCV behind the third. Alternatively, you could drop a Depot or Ebay at the third prior to scouting into the natural. I don't know if that is feasible because I don't play Terran, but I often a Pylon behind the mineral line of my opponents third.
You know, i actually like that idea lol If he takes the 3rd, I see it, worth 100 minerals. If he doesnt take the 3rd, he will likely not see the supply depot for a long time... Pretty interesting move lol Reminds me of human players in WC3 building scout farms inside other players base just because they took so long to kill :D
Instead of doing an ebay or depot, just do a bunker. Instead of putting in in the middle of where the 3rd base would go, hide it just outside range like he states behind the mineral line or just outside sight range of the nexus. That way if he does scout it you can start to salvage and it doesn't cost you anything but 25 minerals for a free scout. Or if he has no units and you get the bunker up and he starts the third, you can bitbybit the third with a handful of marines and scv's to keep him on two base. If he finishes his third you'll prolly get a free nexus kill, but 9/10 you'll prolly get a free cancel on his third if he doesn't scout the bunker quick enough. I guess all of this depends on the first two units from protoss and whether or not the scouting scv is caught while building the bunker.
edit: i guess it also depends on if a handfull of marines/scv's is worth forcing a cancel on the third
Last edit: 2012-06-04 00:56:27 |
| | I am become death, for I am the destroyer of worlds.....You will be missed KT Violet!!! |
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| HeroMystic United States. June 04 2012 01:01. Posts 894 | Profile # |
I decided to watch the replay from your perspective first to see your POV on things and how they lined up with your thoughts, and honestly I can't see how you thought you were ahead.
You took out his army a bunch, but due to Warp Gate and his 3rd base he can replenish his numbers to even it out again. Your 3rd was delayed and it was actually sitting there for an entire 2 and a half minutes. In an MMM vs Templar tech match-up, what's always going to be important is the number of bases you have.
Eventually you take out his 3rd and get ahead on bases, but at this point his tech is higher than yours. You were on equal upgrades and you were with the basic MMM composition which absolutely relies on having better upgrades. On equal upgrades, Protoss' higher tech just murders marines and Archons don't really care about marauders. In an engagement where Army supply is even, Protoss will always win the trade. You didn't really get ahead from sniping that 3rd.
Your ghosts have been far too delayed and when you begin to use them, they instantly die to a counterpush due to the lack of cloak. I would actually say once Protoss lost his third and counterpushed is when the game was decided. Staying on MMM would've been suicidal as you could no longer be aggressive (also doesn't help that Daybreak doesn't have good drop locations), and teching to Ghosts and going defensive would've allowed Protoss to kill you with a maxed push.
So I would actually agree with what MarcH said and that you were too middle of the road. If you were going to aggressively chip away at Protoss you have to do economy damage and not constantly trade armies. As a Terran player who off-races as Protoss, I can say it's pretty easy as Protoss to bounce back from an army trade thanks to Warp Gate. |
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| MarcH United Kingdom. June 04 2012 01:02. Posts 349 | Profile # |
On June 04 2012 00:55 ohampatu wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 00:44 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On June 04 2012 00:42 BronzeKnee wrote:
I didn't even think about Protoss going 1 base, I can see why you tried to poke into his natural now. Still you were unable to to scout with your SCV whether he was going for a one base play or not, but at least with the positioning of his units you could pretty much rule out a one gas 4 Gate, but that is one of the least threatening 1 base plays in my opinion, especially with your early Bunker. I think you would be better off contesting the Xel Naga with a Marine early for information (you may be unable to hold it, but if he is really fighting you for it, you get suspicious) and leaving the SCV behind the third. Alternatively, you could drop a Depot or Ebay at the third prior to scouting into the natural. I don't know if that is feasible because I don't play Terran, but I often a Pylon behind the mineral line of my opponents third.
You know, i actually like that idea lol If he takes the 3rd, I see it, worth 100 minerals. If he doesnt take the 3rd, he will likely not see the supply depot for a long time... Pretty interesting move lol Reminds me of human players in WC3 building scout farms inside other players base just because they took so long to kill :D
Instead of doing an ebay or depot, just do a bunker. Instead of putting in in the middle of where the 3rd base would go, hide it just outside range like he states behind the mineral line or just outside sight range of the nexus. That way if he does scout it you can start to salvage and it doesn't cost you anything but 25 minerals for a free scout. Or if he has no units and you get the bunker up and he starts the third, you can bitbybit the third with a handful of marines and scv's to keep him on two base. If he finishes his third you'll prolly get a free nexus kill, but 9/10 you'll prolly get a free cancel on his third if he doesn't scout the bunker quick enough. I guess all of this depends on the first two units from protoss and whether or not the scouting scv is caught while building the bunker. edit: i guess it also depends on if a handfull of marines/scv's is worth forcing a cancel on the third
Suppose that would depend on the outcome if the P just 6 or 7 gates you and you cant hold it as you have some of your marines on the other side of the map sat in a bunker then no if you could hide the bunker until after the third has finished and shove 4 marines in it then defiantly |
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| HeroMystic United States. June 04 2012 01:08. Posts 894 | Profile # |
On June 04 2012 00:55 ohampatu wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 00:44 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On June 04 2012 00:42 BronzeKnee wrote:
I didn't even think about Protoss going 1 base, I can see why you tried to poke into his natural now. Still you were unable to to scout with your SCV whether he was going for a one base play or not, but at least with the positioning of his units you could pretty much rule out a one gas 4 Gate, but that is one of the least threatening 1 base plays in my opinion, especially with your early Bunker. I think you would be better off contesting the Xel Naga with a Marine early for information (you may be unable to hold it, but if he is really fighting you for it, you get suspicious) and leaving the SCV behind the third. Alternatively, you could drop a Depot or Ebay at the third prior to scouting into the natural. I don't know if that is feasible because I don't play Terran, but I often a Pylon behind the mineral line of my opponents third.
You know, i actually like that idea lol If he takes the 3rd, I see it, worth 100 minerals. If he doesnt take the 3rd, he will likely not see the supply depot for a long time... Pretty interesting move lol Reminds me of human players in WC3 building scout farms inside other players base just because they took so long to kill :D
Instead of doing an ebay or depot, just do a bunker. Instead of putting in in the middle of where the 3rd base would go, hide it just outside range like he states behind the mineral line or just outside sight range of the nexus. That way if he does scout it you can start to salvage and it doesn't cost you anything but 25 minerals for a free scout. Or if he has no units and you get the bunker up and he starts the third, you can bitbybit the third with a handful of marines and scv's to keep him on two base. If he finishes his third you'll prolly get a free nexus kill, but 9/10 you'll prolly get a free cancel on his third if he doesn't scout the bunker quick enough. I guess all of this depends on the first two units from protoss and whether or not the scouting scv is caught while building the bunker. edit: i guess it also depends on if a handfull of marines/scv's is worth forcing a cancel on the third
That... actually is a good idea, lol. I never thought of using a bunker like that before. |
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| ohampatu United States. June 04 2012 01:09. Posts 1431 | Profile # |
On June 04 2012 01:02 MarcH wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 00:55 ohampatu wrote:
On June 04 2012 00:44 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On June 04 2012 00:42 BronzeKnee wrote:
I didn't even think about Protoss going 1 base, I can see why you tried to poke into his natural now. Still you were unable to to scout with your SCV whether he was going for a one base play or not, but at least with the positioning of his units you could pretty much rule out a one gas 4 Gate, but that is one of the least threatening 1 base plays in my opinion, especially with your early Bunker. I think you would be better off contesting the Xel Naga with a Marine early for information (you may be unable to hold it, but if he is really fighting you for it, you get suspicious) and leaving the SCV behind the third. Alternatively, you could drop a Depot or Ebay at the third prior to scouting into the natural. I don't know if that is feasible because I don't play Terran, but I often a Pylon behind the mineral line of my opponents third.
You know, i actually like that idea lol If he takes the 3rd, I see it, worth 100 minerals. If he doesnt take the 3rd, he will likely not see the supply depot for a long time... Pretty interesting move lol Reminds me of human players in WC3 building scout farms inside other players base just because they took so long to kill :D
Instead of doing an ebay or depot, just do a bunker. Instead of putting in in the middle of where the 3rd base would go, hide it just outside range like he states behind the mineral line or just outside sight range of the nexus. That way if he does scout it you can start to salvage and it doesn't cost you anything but 25 minerals for a free scout. Or if he has no units and you get the bunker up and he starts the third, you can bitbybit the third with a handful of marines and scv's to keep him on two base. If he finishes his third you'll prolly get a free nexus kill, but 9/10 you'll prolly get a free cancel on his third if he doesn't scout the bunker quick enough. I guess all of this depends on the first two units from protoss and whether or not the scouting scv is caught while building the bunker. edit: i guess it also depends on if a handfull of marines/scv's is worth forcing a cancel on the third
Suppose that would depend on the outcome if the P just 6 or 7 gates you and you cant hold it as you have some of your marines on the other side of the map sat in a bunker then no if you could hide the bunker until after the third has finished and shove 4 marines in it then defiantly
Well, you wouldn't have units there unless you saw the third 'drop'. As long as he stays on 2 bases you can just leave an 'unmanned' bunker near the third for scouting purposes. I wouldn't recommend sending a handfull or marines or scv's untill after you have seen the third drop. This is also at a point in time where 6/7 gate is pretty unfeasable. The protoss opponent doesn't even have a saturated second base at the time he takes his third, so you should be able to scout whether he is remaining on 2 base or taking a third without too many issues.
Also, a bitbybit marines/scv allin will crush a 6/7 gate if it hits before warp is done. Its similar to 4 gate. You go from 'being easily killed' to 'killing' in a matter of moments. I personally think that everytime a terran decides to do his 'first' push he should add 5 scv's. It messes up the AI, lets you kill zealots without taking marine damage, etc. |
| | I am become death, for I am the destroyer of worlds.....You will be missed KT Violet!!! |
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| dynwar7 June 04 2012 01:11. Posts 1945 | Profile # |
On June 03 2012 23:33 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 23:29 dynwar7 wrote:
I dont really get the title of this thread, Jinro, but can I just suggest something that will sound noobish to you - Ghosts.
If I remember correctly, at one point you only had....3 or 4 ghosts? I think you need so many more, try to transition to mass ghosts while applying pressure of course, and he had sooo many zealots and archons, both of which are weak vs Ghosts.
I am starting to love ghosts, tbh. With 3/3 they do 26 to light, just like marauders do vs armored. Marauders DPS vs armor is really good, and that is the same as ghosts, excluding stimpack, yes...
Hm, could be a good point. The title of the thread is because I felt like I might have been staying on an aggressive composition for too long (lots of marine marauders, slow ghosts, kinda high scvs because you'll be fighting a lot so trading). When going more mass ghost, more of a long term plan, more ccs, gradually less scvs, getting more of a 1 gigantic army kind of deal...
Yup, just try utilize ghosts more. They are really really good. GL with your game |
| | Regarding the imbalance, hilarious to see Zergs defending themselves.... |
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| Jazzman88 Canada. June 04 2012 01:11. Posts 253 | Profile # |
On June 04 2012 01:08 HeroMystic wrote:
That... actually is a good idea, lol. I never thought of using a bunker like that before.
Heh. You think that's funny, try engi-bay blocking a Protoss natural sometime. I've done it a couple of times and it's VERY funny how they react. I do this (sometimes) on smaller maps if I see they're getting greedy by skipping the first Zealot. Takes them forever to get a Stalker out to kill the structure. |
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| Oatsboats United States. June 04 2012 01:15. Posts 20 | Profile # |
| This may sound really crazy, and I could be way off in my thinking...but... Since the Protoss 3rd will be up and running long before the normal timing of you starting your 3rd, it will be too late for him to turn back ( aka canceling his 3rd ) when he sees that you are NOT taking a 3rd. Yes it is all-in but I think if you can turtle til max off two base and attack before more than 3- colossus or storm, it may be an alternative. Yes he may have a huge gateway army if he sees you not taking 3rd he may just stick to mass gate and go that route. I say just go gas-lite or take 4th gas and make a couple ghost. I am just pulling off the top of my head, don't really know how the money will pan out. You should be maxed before 14 minutes at your skill level off two base with 1 rax fe build...tech will be delayed for him due to saturating 3 base. Guess you have to check to see if he cuts probes before full saturation ( not ideal seeing as he plopped down 400 mineral nexus that he will not fully utilize) and also storm/colo timing, should also be delayed because he will need to mass gate units to be safe. GOAL: army advantage. I am gold..so take that with grain of salt. |
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| Eraserhead June 04 2012 01:20. Posts 159 | Profile # |
It is obviously a case of superior Zealot/Archon micro from the protoss player
no but seriously, I think your ghost academy was way too late |
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 ][Primarch][ Sweden. June 04 2012 01:22. Posts 302 | Profile # |
I would say the protoss ends the early game with advantage, 70 probes mining on 3 base, he can throw zealots at you all day defending his third and just trade away minerals while teching up so storm. Since Protoss have the early game advantage in this match-up every terran who plays standard have to hide behind bunkers.
Soo...if protoss takes a third and can deny scouting thus hindering you from all-inning him he will build up a midgame where the protoss can dominate the terran.
The snipe on his third is (sadly) of no importance when it happens, our barcode friend doesn't even notice his third going down, his minerals stays on above 500 and he is even switching in to collosi and starts chronoing his upgrades.
About relying on marine-ghost instead of mixing in marauders, this also implies that you have to emp/snipe every ht, any kind of splash-damage will melt the marines in about 5-6 seconds. Demuslim talked about how he tried marine-ghost and that he felt it didn't work, he went back to getting marauders and the extra durability.
If the terran don't want to play "smart" and all-in the only solution I can see is to build up for a late game with mass orbitals. 15 scvs mining gas and only vikings + ghost with nukes and vikings doing infinite scan- observer snipes thus allowing cloaked ghost to nuke cannons, cloak and then go mad on the protoss deathball. I have very rarely seen a terran being a able to pull this strat of but if you can get there it is possible with good sniping on speed-observers.
This match-up is really strange though atm for the terran and I understand that even pro-gamers turn to forums to discuss it. TBH I feel dumb giving advice here to someone like Jinro as I can't even break in to masters just because of TvP. |
| | Huge fan of Empire Kas, The Destroyer of Worlds, The Machine, The Second Terminator, The Supreme Robot! |
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