I am a huge fan! Much love and here are my 2 cents. Hopefully you can find something useful -
1) The game plays out with toss investing into army and econ (3 base+mass gateway), terran investing in some econ tech and army (fe, bio, stim+medivacs, +1 etc)
2) Terran presses tech advantage as toss takes third. Toss barely holds on by sniping medivacs and using mass warpins (he has more production)
3) Terran adds more production and takes a third and catches up with toss in econ and production, toss techs up and is now sitting on templar tech with econ and production. Terran still has map control because HTs don't have storm and toss cannot afford to lose any gas heavy units at this point
4) Terran attacks into toss turtling with cannon, HT archon speedlots. AFter some cost ineffective engagements, toss takes a 4th and gets colossus. This puts him ahead of terran.
5) Toss closes out the game with better tech.
I feel the error happenned at step 4 where instead of attacking into a turtling toss, a better use of the map control would have been to take quicker 4th base gas (maybe even a plantary for extra defense if you can afford it) and start massing ghosts.
Either way, you are a much better player to judge what to do with that map control and how to play late game. I think going into even stronger late game composition and transitioning out of 200/200 MMM with multi-pronged drops to free up supply vs trying to kill a turtling toss would be better. Esp on Daybreak that has so any chokes and turtling in general is easy on that map.
Last edit: 2012-06-04 01:37:52
babyToSS here! Can u go easy on me plzzz?
monk United States. June 04 2012 01:58. Posts 6993
I'll try to touch upon some points other people haven't brought up.
First, you say:
scan around 7 min seeing nothing at nat/no gas means 6-8 gate or 3rd, transfering probes means 3rd most likely.
I would argue that seeing just one sentry standing there is another indication of a 3rd. I agree that seeing no gas that that timing(7:35) probably means your opponent is either gateway pressuring or taking a 3rd. Another indication that he's going for the third is that sentry. If your opponent is gateway pressuring or all-ining you, there's no reason for him to have one lone sentry standing at this natural. It's far more likely that he just has very few units scattered across the map to deny scouts to his third.
I don't understand why you finish a turret only to scan right when the turret finishes. That turret timing seems to suggest that you're afraid of one base dts, but it's still too early for 1 base dt, because you scouted your opponent only took one gas. If anything, keep the turret at 99% and then scan. If you see something that suggests he's not going 1 base dts, such as that one sentry plus the timing of his nexus, then cancel that turret.
Next, and probably the most important point is that I have a problem with the mentality with which you pressure. I believe that the key to consistent pressure against protoss is to sustain a high medivac count. With that in mind, I have a few criticisms of that game. First, I question your choice of going dual reactor before factory for the starport instead of factory -> double reactor, which is the standard. What you're currently doing doesn't help for 1 base all-ins and doesn't help for pressure imo, so the only thing it might be better for is 2 base gateway pressures, but even that is questionable. I'd like to hear your thoughts. I'm sure you know the standard build I'm talking about btw, but just in case you don't, check MKP vs Parting from the GSTL finals for 2 usages of the build. Anyways, your current build delays your first 2 medivacs by about 50 seconds. For reference, the standard fast medivac with 2 reactor build hits at 10:00 on a big map like daybreak while yours hits at 10:50. The head start on medivacs is huge imo. Another problem is that your +1 doesn't exactly line up with your pressure.
In the theme of medivac retention, you also don't make it a point to keep your medivacs alive. You lose all four of your medivacs rather carelessly and this, in conjunction with your delayed starport, is the reason your pressure eventually fizzles out even though you seem to do so much damage, killing all his sentries. 5 rax of production with rax 4/5 delayed just can't keep with 8 gateways of production if you don't have meidvac retention. If you watch MKP's games, he makes it a point to keep his medivac count high and he just kites a seemingly much larger and insurmountable zealot force all the way across the map. Again, a good example of this is MKP vs Parting in their re-game from GSTL.
By between 13:00 and 14:00, it should begin to become clear that your pressure is beginning to fizzle out. There are two schools of thought on how to play Terran, one pressure based, andthe other late game based with heavy ghost/pf/upgrade usage. I would argue that although both are good, if you can't keep your momentum going with pressure based played, it's probably not going to work out. Thus, at this point I previously mentioned in your specific game, I would recommend transitioning into more late-game focused play. Start your upgrades faster, start viking ups, get your expo gases faster, get a faster ghost academy, and take a faster 4th and pf it.
Your late game army also wasn't ideal, because around 4 ghosts in an army isn't enough sustainable for a modern late game TvP army imo. I believe this type of maxed army with 4 ghosts is only good for hitting timings to kill your opponent straight away. More common modern TvPs involve 10+ ghosts in a late game army. Thorzain has always used this style, but a lot of Koreans have recently, in the past few months, begun to switch over.
To warp it up, in your game, I believe you overestimated the advantage you had. You killed a lot, but he had more economy so he could lose more. You lost your momentum and your medivacs (imo the key to continuous pressure play), so it wasn't realistically viable to expect to definitively kill or really damage him with the forces you had. Thus, you invested too much into pressure moves later on into the game and not enough into late game, where you died. Hope this helped!
Last edit: 2012-06-05 02:25:23
ArchAngelSC England. June 04 2012 03:51. Posts 241
Just watched through the game from your POV and here are some of the things I picked up on.
Tbh I don't really like the double reactor before factory as it delays your starport tech too much which I feel is more important in almost all situations (and considering the map I think we can assume the protoss is going for a macro build).
There's not much to say from then until 11:10. You tried scouting the natural which got denied, the only thing I can say is what was said by someone else earlier, maybe build a depot/bunker at the third to know when he takes it. But then most protoss' scout down there for an scv anyway so it might just end up being a waste.
At 11:10 things start to go wrong. You mess up putting the extra 2 scvs in gas, which is a huge deal. The following fight goes pretty well for you. You pick off several sentries and at the end the protoss has about 2200 more resources lost than you do. The problem is that your 1-1 finishes at 12:10 and your armoury soon after, but because you messed up with your 4th gas you don't have the gas to start 2-2.
At 11:50 I think you should have stopped pushing as your army is too small and kinda just streaming in 1 at a time and your medivacs are all spread out over the map not helping at all. At this point you're just microing without doing any significant damage, which is APM that would be better spent macroing more efficiently. However you keep going until about 13:50 and then start your 2-2 at 14:00, almost 2 minutes after when he could have been started.
You scan/push at 15:40 and see templar tech, but don't start your ghost academy until 16:50, even going for a blind secondary starport (though at this point we can probably assume he's going to be getting collos fairly soon considering how good his eco is) before getting the academy. Your first ghosts don't hit the field until 21:10 which is unbelievably late.
Your 2-2 finishes at 17:30 but you don't start your 3-3 until 18:40 which means in total you've added 3 minutes onto the time your 3-3 completes, meaning the protoss actually completes 3-3 before you do, which was pretty much the only advantage of your build over his as you're both as maximum tech now.
Something I'd like to add that wasn't actually incredibly relevant this game, but you couldn't have known that, is that you should be upgrading ship weapons. If the protoss goes for a crazy amount of collos that have level 3 armour they're going to wipe out your army before your 0-0 vikings can tickle them to death. I say it's not very relevant this game because the protoss didn't make that many collos, and those that he didn't make died before they could do much damage. The bigger problem was your very few/late ghosts. He was really templar/archon heavy and you just cannot take that sort of army without a ton of ghosts.
I understand this post sounds really negative but if I was going to post about all the things I thought you did well then I'd be here all day It also focusses mostly on upgrades, but as this was the main advantage of your build over his I feel it's a valid point to make.
architecture United States. June 04 2012 09:28. Posts 556
Very good points about the reactors before factory - I think I just carried that over from TvT without thinking.
tell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n Formerly FrozenArbiter
The best thing to do in this scenario is spread him out. double drop in the main require a lot of units to defend especially without tier 3 or twilight upgrades. you do this while pressuring third you only need to micro one to do game ending damage.
Your upgrades like everyone has mentioned shouldve been focused on more heavily a second engi bay and armory faster wouldve been great while taking third.
Continue the pressure in the midgame scenario have one medivac in main only for him to warp in and then bring it with army if you need to just to force some units in his main. He will likely overeact. You lost medivacs that you shouldnt have. Those were the biggest flaws midgame and led to you losing the game.
I think it's slowly becoming clearer as time progresses being aggressive for too long is hurting Terran more and more as protoss is learning to deal with all forms of multi-pronged harass and aggressiveness in general. I think we need to see more and more Terrans trying to shoot for extreme late-game in the same way protoss currently is, with focus on heavy upgrades and high tech units (ghost or BC's in mass).
Pretty much any time protoss is allowed to get 170+ food in clossi/HT/archon based armys and the terran has anything less than 10+ ghost(some going as high as 25..) or a decent chunk of BC army or at the least progressing towards that with proper defenses they are almost always losing. It does not matter how you got to that point - if he gets to that army comp and you're still on MMMV with out heavy heavy ghost or going into BC you are just losing.
Last edit: 2012-06-04 12:33:44
Ercster United States. June 04 2012 14:46. Posts 519
I'm probably going to say things that other have said, but oh well. Your 4th could have been up earlier (around 14-15 min) You didn't scan mid-game to see his tech, although, it might have been apparent since he only had gateway units. Knowing that, you should/would have made ghosts earlier. And as for your BC question, maybe just building 2-4 would have been perfect.
Last edit: 2012-06-04 14:57:04
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” -Neil deGrasse Tyson
I second the idea of building a supply depot at his third before sending your worker into his natural. Additionally I don't like continuing to be aggressive the entire game, once the timer hits 16-17 minutes your strategy should be shifting more towards getting a higher ghost count than you had and adding 3-4 silos. Your harass at this point should turn into nukes while you turtle behind planetary fortresses, add orbitals and gradually add battlecruisers into your composition. *If you would like to see a couple replays of this at high masters I can provide them and I also believe avilo does a similar transition in late-game tvp.
On a sidenote, against that particular 3 quick nexus build into 8 gates you could play with adding a couple of cloaked banshees upon your starport finishing while delaying medvacs/bio aggression or even adding a second starport to produce medvacs/banshees at the same time.
CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr June 07 2012 11:21. Posts 544
A lot of good points have already been made about early game scouting so i wanted to comment on that but its done already, but really always try to get a second scv scout mvp is the only player to do that consistently afaik but it really win games by itself sometimes, and yea its hard to always get a scout at 6min for 3rd but its doable.
Now im not sure if u really want to talk about what is the best style on daybreak lot of ppl think more lategame focussed is better due to how easy it is to split and how hard it is to reinforce, but it seems like u can be aggressive and u did fairly well in this game so im just gonna focus on what u did which is modern tvp style anyway; i feel like ur micro and tactical decision making were really good so i wont talk about it, (mb mkp could do better but i personnaly cant say what he would do there) and i dont think u were that far behind despite early 3rd for toss, u really did great dmg midgame so it more than made up for it.
Since u lost anyway and it seems that ur decision and control werent the reason to me the solution seems to be economy management, and lategame setup, and while u went for an aggressive style, i think u really could have afforded ghosts earlier, but i know it usualy means less aggression. so i went over the replay and i think u could have just added ghosts while being as aggressive, with as many units, maybe even more which would have resulted in straight up winning/keep building on ur lead around 20min. Thats where i think u lost the game, yea u traded armies okish but then 1 minute later the protoss repops with a way superior composition, 2 colo for 2vikings, 6hts and 4 archons for 4 ghosts, and he has 20 lots for 20 rines with rauders being useless as always late game which is obv imbalanced. So u cant compete with that army, ur tech units are too few, u cant nukes, u have same amounts of worker, imo the game is over whether or not he capitalized as quick as he did.
So the only way for this to not happen is by getting more tech units quicker, in that case ghosts since he was massing archon lots templars, and i agree if u made that decision in game u wouldnt have as many bio units and would have been more defensive, which u are really good at from what i recall, but u want to avoid it. The only solution is by getting more money quicker, and better production, and i think that with ur build it was doable.If we look at when u took the battle, 11 min mark, income is 1500 to 2100, which is obv awful (one thing is that if u used Bomber style tvp u could have started ur third at 9 or so instead of 10.30 and still have the exact same number of units ). With ur build ur third is done at 12.00, and thats where the problem is. u dont take advantage of it until the 15minute mark, and it results in the income staying on the same disparity for 3 additionals minutes, 1600 to 2100, barely improved. while u keep focussing on the fights, u have 7 iddle scvs, u have 6 scvs too many on ur main, ur third has zero mining and is not even morphed into an orbital, and u dont MULE enough. 13.00 u just morph it and u have 150 extra energy on all ur ccs and a mule that missed the patch lol -_-. around 15 is where u rearange everything properly. so its good, but u still dont take ur geysers at the third, u also delayed putting workers on gas at nat for 2 minutes, and u have 70 workers, so u can afford geyser since a bit. What this translates into is that u only have 6 barracks, u should have 8 or 9 by now, and ghost tech ready with the gas u could have mined. u still overmin despite not having maximised income, and u will add the extra rax way too late, even after ur 2nd port which was a luxury u could not afford. Also your only control mistakes was the medivacs like others pointed out, and if u did save indeed 6 medivacs or so u would have been able to get even more gas units, be it just more medivacs or more ghosts.
So it really looks like u could have played the exact same game, made the same decisions, hurt protoss as much as u did, which i think u did a really good job of, but u could have also like 10 ghosts, better productions and whatnot at the 20 minute mark where the protoss takes a decisive lead, almost out of nowhere. Thats the issues u were focussing on in the op, and i think my observations are directly related to that, even if they dont solve everything, but mb ud have to transition to nuke bcs whatever, toss is always almost impossible to kill. I think u were doing a really good job, and if u can really eliminate all smalls mistakes out of ur play, like the ones i pointed, ur winrate would increase quite a bit. Thats my opinion and thats what i thought of watching the replay, but dont hesitate to tell me if u think im full of bs lol, hope it helps a bit and it was readable.
On June 03 2012 23:23 Josh_rakoons wrote: Just a question, but why is TL giving advice to a pro gamer? When half of the population of TL is gold or lower? o.o
Because he asked for it
Yup, pretty much covers it. I welcome all discussion.
Not only that but it's much easier to cover ground with more people (whether gold or lower). The more people that see the reply, the more chances of something important being pointed out (even a pro may not notice something when he or she analyzes their own replay just by oneself).
Last edit: 2012-06-07 14:55:26
https://connect.microsoft.com/WindowsServerFeedback/feedback/details/741495/biggest-explorer-annoyance-automatic-sorting-windows-7-server-2008-r2-and-vista#details Allow Disable Auto Arrange in Windows 7+
As the game progresses to lategame (post 16mins), MnM's start to lose their juice from my point of view as a Protoss player. Once I have HTs, Colossus, Archons with endless reinforcing chargelots, the game becomes more in my favour even if your constantly trading units (but not killing my bases).
I've gone up against a few master Terrans going 4-5 vikings with about 8-10 cloaked banshees when late game hits and what they do is scan to snipe obs and I'm left with no detection and my HTs+colossus start getting picked off and there is absolutely nothing I can do until I chrono out more obs. I spam my storms at where the banshees are cloaked but it doesn't kill them off. Not used to having to micro my obs around as the focal point (with speed, they are usually a bit ahead of my army if I group them, without speed, they are a little too slow for my liking). Of course, they are still supported by a decent ground army of MMM.
Empire.Beastyqt Serbia. June 07 2012 15:36. Posts 379
1) if you already see only one gas on start, you know its FE or 4g, save first scv and scout third later on instead going on natural with it - you can defend 4g with 1 bunker anyway.
2) build reactors on rax after you start factory, not before because your medivacs come much later.
3) first fight you had very good exchange with killing couple of sentries and all zealots, after that instead fighting again after he got charge you should have loaded everything into medivacs and droped main while rallying units to his 3rd and killing probes there.
4) after 15min in game you had marauder marine 1:2 ratio which is bad vs what he was doing, you should go for 1:3 or even 1:4 ratio with couple of ghosts.
5) you went late game vs protoss on even bases.
Hope I helped
My stream! http://www.twitch.tv/Beastyqt
washikie United States. June 07 2012 15:41. Posts 42
It is odd commenting on such a great player as you jinro. But I was able to notice few things not already mentioned in this thread. in your engage around the 23 minute mark when you start to position your army you end up committing to an attack while your down on upgrades your at 2 armor and 3 weapons to the Protoss 3 armor 3 weapons you finish 3 armor halfway through the engage but the Protoss army has all ready taken out a large chunk of your army. I'm also unsure if theirs anything you can do about it when using a bio based unit comp but you ended up in a position were the protoss was able to use his gas income to enhance his army's value far beyond yours. At the end of the game you had 1700 gas in the bank and he was low on all resources. Protoss used this money to build alot of hts and archons which brought him up in supply and allowed him to land a killing blow. perhaps you could have not mined this gas and had more mins to spend on your army or used it for some more techy units maybe if you had another base you could have used these scvs mining gas to collect mins so you had more money to replenish your bio?
From my perspective you played well, like someone said i think you should sneak an scv or a marine to the third to be always sure if its going down or not. And also get some more ghosts. Apart from that I know what the reaction might be to this kind of post, but I think that protoss is a joke currently. Terran is actually forced to play MMMGV perfectly, and protosses are facing bio terran 99% of the time, When T is forced to play given bio composition in order to have chances, the element of surprise is totally gone from Terrans. Especially considering the tech paths protoss can choose, and terrans MUST add vikings/ghosts desperately. I might be crying Terran tears here, but seriously im having faith in HotS, I hope it brings some more viable strats than MMMGV.
I'm a big fan and would like to re-iterate a few points that have already been mentioned but without the emphasis they deserve.
SCV production: At the time you threw down your natural you should have had 53 SCV's at 10 Mins. You had made 46 (45+1dead), so thats 7 SCV's short or 119 seconds of idle CC time, that's quite a lot. As someone has already mentioned I think you could benefit from queuing an extra SVC.
The other thing that stood out for me was your lack of barracks, you stayed on 6 barracks for much too long and didn't throw down barracks 7/8/9 until 16:40. I think they could have gone down much sooner as you were floating a lot of minerals throughout the mid game.
The build you used in this game is very similar to one I've seen in a tutorial recently, I hesitate to mention it because the video's are aimed at noobs like me, but I really think they could help you tighten up your early game.
The video's are done by Filter and are an excellent series of video's that focus on benchmarks. Link is below.
Thank you Jinro for posting this. I have learned a lot just reading the comments and seeing the replay. Would be nice if you can post the replay when you try to use some of the tips, and see if it helps. Could be a part of the team liquid site, "help Jinro become a better player", and you post replays and fans can give you feedback and see if it works.
Pro advice from a forever diamond. Instead of trying to match toss resource bank just build enough rax so you have the equivalent of a toss/zerg insta remax then try to win in that brief 30 second window of the previous engagement you hopefully partially won. (SUPER LATE GAME SCENARIO)
Alternatively never EVER engage, just go for a base trade every single time.
Or you can drop cloaked ghosts into their main or around the map and try to get winning nukes or try really convoluted and complicated paths to get emp's off lol!