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| myRZeth Germany. June 04 2012 03:00. Posts 818 | Profile # |
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OVTty.jpg)
1. Introduction
Hey Guys,
I m a 15 year old high master protoss playing for Myrevenge from Germany.
My ingame name is Zeth and I ve won a lot of games vs the professional players.
Recently there has been a lot of discussion about the Stephano style and the unability of protoss to take a 3. base safely. There have been some suggestions, but I think they are all bad/ not optimal.
You can find the discussion here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320894
So i started experimenting.
This will be the guide, how to expand safely and punish the zerg for sticking to roaches and lings (if he does).
2. General
So, let s start with when to do this build and against what. This style should only be played against a fast 3 hatchery player starting without gas.
Your goal is to take a nexus between 7.30 and 7.45 and defend it.
Afterwards you just go kill him if he sticks to roach/ling or you can get into a macro game if he decides to go for mutas or infestors.
This style depends heavily on the map. On some it s easier, on some it s harder, on some it s almost impossible.
I suggest doing this style on the following maps and i m also rating the difficulty from 1-10 (10 hardest):
- Cloud Kingdom (5)
- Daybreak (7)
- Korhal Compound (4)
- Ohana (5)
- Antiga (2)
- Entombed (4)
- Metalopolis (6)
- Shakuras (8)
- Taldarim (6)
3. The Buildorder
You open up with your forge fast expansion you prefer, then you continue with the normal buildorder. That means:
gate -->core-->+1weapon-->zealot-->warpgate-->sentry (skip the stalker)-->chrono your warpgate 2-3 times
now to the important ones:
@ minute 6.30 you throw down 3 additional gates, you stop building probes and you immidiatly build a robotics facility
@ minute 7:30 you build your nexus and immidiatly build a pylon to the position where you can wall off (e.g. can be seen on my replay in cloud kingdom vs bakuri, you will know which positions i mean)
@ after the nexus is being started get the 2 additional gases and continue probe production till you re full saturated at your natural
Then depending on how much chrono you have spent on your warpgate you can either transform your gateways to warpgates now, or you have to build your units from your gateways.
Now build 2-3 additional units from them (sentry,sentry,zealot).
After that start +1 armor, get hallucination or an observer, which i prefer, but that s up to you and start probe production to your 3.base.
You now have to add 2-4 additional gates to your pylon you have build to the position to wall off.
This is again map depending, because the gates are also used to block your enemy units, they are not just used for production. For example on Daybreak you need 4 gates to wall off the entrance to your natural, while on Ohana you want 1 gate to complete the wall of to your natural and 2 more to wall off a little bit on your 3. base.
Add as much additional cannons as you need to defend, depending on your and your opponents skill and as always on the map.
4. defending your 3.
The first thing you have to do is to try and deny your opponents scouting. He shall not scout your 3. base, but if he does, what good zergs do, don t worry, like I said it s a safe expansion build.
So now, your opponent has seen your expansion.
What can he do from now?
- he can take a 4.base, get additional gases and tech to mutas or infestors
- he can commit and attack with roaches and lings to kill you
You have to have constant production out of your 4 gates with sentrys and zealots. This is very important and also NEVER EVER STOP YOUR IMMORTAL PRODUCTION, i can t even say how important that is.
Now you have to try to figure out what your opponent is doing, is he getting aggressive or not?
First is to stay defensivly and try to survive if he s getting aggressivly. I can t say you more than have good forcefields, keep your immortals alive and make the right unit compositions. Please watch the replays and see how i do it.
Next step,
1. I defended succesfully my 3. base
Now use your hallucination because you can afford to use your sentry energy and try to get information. If he s still making units, just stay defensivly and kill him after you have enough units, nothing more to say.
You see him not making units, but drones?
Now you have to scout your opponents tech, this is the key to fully transition to the macro game.
Is he going infestors or mutas?
Then just counter his build with either hts/colossus or blinkstalkers/hts and transition into a macro game.
2. I didn t have to defend and my opponent stays passive
You have to use your hallucination or your observer as fast as possible, and you have to see what tech he s doing, just read everything above it just continues after defending succesfully, it s some kinda the same  .
Don t worry about muta timings, the zergs spire finish at the earliest time at minute 10, normally even later, you should be able to scout that in time.
5.Replays
http://drop.sc/190738 Shakuras vs Roaches, don t mind the chat, just talking trash to make at least him go mutas
http://drop.sc/190739 Cloud Kingdom vs Roaches
http://drop.sc/191742 Ohana vs Mutas, game was played vs progamer ec elvis
http://drop.sc/198298 Antiga vs Roach/lingdrops, game was played vs progamer liquid haypro
http://drop.sc/235144 Daybreak vs Mutas into Broodlord Infestor
http://drop.sc/235863 Ohana vs Infestation Pit, i go for a timing push just before his broodlords NEW VERSION
my smurfs name is exsanguis
more replays will come soon, I ll update this thread tomorrow and feel free to ask me questions
I m sorry for my English, if you find any mistakes feel free to correct me, I m just 15 and still going to school.
thx TL♥
ZethLast edit: 2012-08-10 02:24:01 |
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| FoolieCoolie Serbia. June 04 2012 03:10. Posts 69 | Profile # |
| Very cool, thanks for the guide. |
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| myRZeth Germany. June 04 2012 03:51. Posts 818 | Profile # |
On June 04 2012 03:10 FoolieCoolie wrote:
Very cool, thanks for the guide.
thank you
guys what should i add and improve? |
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| FreshVegetables Finland. June 04 2012 04:02. Posts 485 | Profile Blog # |
Nice guide. Could use a few more replays, other than that decent guide.
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| Docta-thunder United States. June 04 2012 04:15. Posts 52 | Profile # |
| That's a very cool guide man! I applaud your attempt at writing a vocabulary intense guide in a different language from your own. I'm 24 and still do not know any others fluently. GG sir. |
| | Ignorance is bliss, but knowledge is power! |
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| dTox United Kingdom. June 04 2012 04:55. Posts 231 | Profile # |
| This is a very strong build and have encountered it myself multiple times on ladder, impossible to punish with Stephano fast 3rd since you have no ling speed in time. Zenio style works well however, which looks like a fast 3rd build but they take gas @ 20 and get ling speed with a slightly later 3rd so you can deviate if you scout correctly. |
| | My Master Zerg UK stream, tune in - http://www.justin.tv/dtoxstarcraft |
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| ChEDo Canada. June 04 2012 05:27. Posts 165 | Profile # |
Title seems misleading, I thought it was 1 base 4 gate robo expo so i was like O_O
Good strategy, I do almost similar build and had great success with it :D
I like how you point out the difficulty of it on certain |
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 ThePlayer33 Australia. June 04 2012 05:30. Posts 2377 | Profile # |
4 gate robo off 1 base sounds like something nshs-tassadar would do
User was temp banned for this post. |
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| vaderseven United States. June 04 2012 05:34. Posts 2266 | Profile # |
On June 04 2012 05:30 ThePlayer33 wrote:
4 gate robo off 1 base sounds like something nshs-tassadar would do
OPENING POST
You open up with your forge fast expansion you prefer, then you continue with the normal buildorder. That means:
gate -->core-->+1weapon-->zealot-->warpgate-->sentry (skip the stalker)-->chrono your warpgate 2-3 times
Read the opening post.
Last edit: 2012-06-04 05:34:24 |
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| EtherealDeath United States. June 04 2012 05:47. Posts 8189 | Profile Blog # |
| I'm more in anticipation of the vs muta part o.o gogogo ^^ |
| | SC2: Kasu.767 ////////// Dota 2: 1a2a3a | |
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| sleepingdog Austria. June 04 2012 05:48. Posts 6130 | Profile # |
First: obvious suggestion - change title from "expansion" into "3rd"; I too was expecting a bizarre 4 gate robo off one base
Second: I've seen WhiteRa doing this successfully numerous times - it's definitely something to consider even for high level play. (I'm addicted to his stream) Recently people are leaning more and more towards robo + quick 3rd instead of stargate. Since zergs nowadays deal so perfectly with void/phoenix I do this too.
The part where the fun begins is that this style is really underdeveloped right now and there are a million different things to figure out yet. Some things to mention:
1. When build TC for blink and +2.
2. How to defend vs mutas (in my opinion it should be doable although really tough)
3. Might a 2nd robo be useful? WhiteRa does this occasionally, 2 robos for immortals and delay more gates and blink. Of course you have to be sure that no mutas are coming
4. How many cannons you a) need and b) are prudent vs quick 4th/5th and/or fast-ish hive
5. Warpprism harass? The best reason why to do this would probably be the scouting intel - if you use the prism for one round of zealots at the zerg's third you keep him honest on his roach count.
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| Mikelius Germany. June 04 2012 14:23. Posts 503 | Profile # |
On June 04 2012 05:48 sleepingdog wrote:
First: obvious suggestion - change title from "expansion" into "3rd"; I too was expecting a bizarre 4 gate robo off one base
Second: I've seen WhiteRa doing this successfully numerous times - it's definitely something to consider even for high level play. (I'm addicted to his stream) Recently people are leaning more and more towards robo + quick 3rd instead of stargate. Since zergs nowadays deal so perfectly with void/phoenix I do this too.
The part where the fun begins is that this style is really underdeveloped right now and there are a million different things to figure out yet. Some things to mention:
1. When build TC for blink and +2.
2. How to defend vs mutas (in my opinion it should be doable although really tough)
3. Might a 2nd robo be useful? WhiteRa does this occasionally, 2 robos for immortals and delay more gates and blink. Of course you have to be sure that no mutas are coming
4. How many cannons you a) need and b) are prudent vs quick 4th/5th and/or fast-ish hive
5. Warpprism harass? The best reason why to do this would probably be the scouting intel - if you use the prism for one round of zealots at the zerg's third you keep him honest on his roach count.
The first person I've seen them do this consistently is iS.Asxlav, it's pretty much his go to build and he tries to hit a 16-17 minute timing with a max Blink Stalkers/Colo/Immortal army while getting his mothership behind it. It's pretty freaking strong as it hits just as the first Brood Lords are popping out.
He's said that it is paramount to scout for a muta transition as well as the hive timing, and in case the Zerg gets greedy and tries a pre 15 minute hive, you must punish him for it. |
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| xHerodotusx United Kingdom. June 04 2012 14:31. Posts 110 | Profile Blog # |
On June 04 2012 03:51 Tassadarstarcraft2 wrote:thank you guys what should i add and improve?
DON'T SHARE THIS BUILD!
My ladder experience will get much more difficult  |
| | Zero - Seal - Life - Taeja - Parting - Squirtle |
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| AmericanUmlaut Germany. June 04 2012 14:53. Posts 2275 | Profile # |
| Thanks very much for the post. I've been using a very similar build everywhere but Shakuras (where holding a third seems to be impossible) for the last month or so, and it's very successful for the most part. The issue that I'm currently having with it is that, as I start hitting better opponents, they're getting much better at multi-pronged attacks that make it extremely difficult to have the correct number of units positioned at each base, and so I frequently end up with either a runby into my nat/main, or a large force of Roaches sniping my third while I'm out of position. I'd be very appreciative if you'd post a bit of discussion of how you position and control your army during the 12-minute Roach aggression phase to keep from ending up dead or way behind. |
| | The frumious Bandersnatch |
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| Belial88 United States. June 04 2012 15:07. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
Interesting, watching rep.
Recently I've begun that, as soon as I notice your going robo/immortals, I will cancel all roach related tech and upgrades (if it's early enough, not even make the roach warren or evo, but normally it's just like I've maybe started roach speed and +1 and I just cancel them and not make any roaches, and I'll go fast spire.
NrGMonk said it was a bad idea in the "Nestea's anti-immortal/sentry all-in build" thread, because sentry/immortal hits at 11:30, but the shittiest thing about immortal/sentry is you can't really tell definitively if they are all-inning, or just playing a macro build (like 5 gate robo, or in this case, 4 gate robo). The push moves out at 11:30 I believe, so I use lots of lings made (i dont drone greedily, stop pretty standard 8:30 time) to force you to really take your time across the map (think ling/bane/muta vs siege tanks), threaten counter-attacks to pull you back, to buy that extra minute I need, and besides, your only killing one of my 3 bases when my mutas pop out.
I don't know yet if it's a good reaction against immortal/sentry all-in, but I do think it's a good reaction against your build. it would slaughter you, since I'm not getting less drones, nor am I making more drones, so I have a standard economy, but just a ton of mutas early on and the only way to punish that is with some sort of timing (if anything, maybe it becomes new metagame vs robo openers).
So... if you have an NA account, maybe we can test out our 2 builds ^^
I dont think any zergs do this besides what I saw nestea do in the gsl (anxiously waiting him to play more zvp). It was quite crazy. |
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| myRZeth Germany. June 04 2012 15:34. Posts 818 | Profile # |
On June 04 2012 05:48 sleepingdog wrote:
First: obvious suggestion - change title from "expansion" into "3rd"; I too was expecting a bizarre 4 gate robo off one base
Second: I've seen WhiteRa doing this successfully numerous times - it's definitely something to consider even for high level play. (I'm addicted to his stream) Recently people are leaning more and more towards robo + quick 3rd instead of stargate. Since zergs nowadays deal so perfectly with void/phoenix I do this too.
The part where the fun begins is that this style is really underdeveloped right now and there are a million different things to figure out yet. Some things to mention:
1. When build TC for blink and +2.
2. How to defend vs mutas (in my opinion it should be doable although really tough)
3. Might a 2nd robo be useful? WhiteRa does this occasionally, 2 robos for immortals and delay more gates and blink. Of course you have to be sure that no mutas are coming
4. How many cannons you a) need and b) are prudent vs quick 4th/5th and/or fast-ish hive
5. Warpprism harass? The best reason why to do this would probably be the scouting intel - if you use the prism for one round of zealots at the zerg's third you keep him honest on his roach count.
obvious suggestion is obvious
sorry for the misleading title
you brought up some very good questions which i mostly already thought about and i m not sure 100% sure whether my answers are the the optimum.
1. TC timing: i build the TC as soon as i m safe, because then i can afford it to tech and i also need the TC against his follow up tech, i think building it earlier is just greedy
2. you ll have to take a look at the replays how i do it, but you will scout it in time as long as your hallucination is in time, so you can decide between stargates or blink
3. i was thinking a lot about that and i m thinking 1 robo is enough, but to make it easier you can add a 2. one after your TC has finished
making it earlier is in my opinion just too greedy as well and not working, because you also need meatshield for immortals
4. i think this is heavily depending on the map
e.g. on antiga i build 1, on daybreak i build up to 4, but this has to be developed more
5. i don t think you can warpprism harass with that build,it s too much of an investment, you can do it when you re safe, but that s then just a normal prism in a macro game, nothing special
On June 04 2012 15:07 Belial88 wrote:
Interesting, watching rep.
Recently I've begun that, as soon as I notice your going robo/immortals, I will cancel all roach related tech and upgrades (if it's early enough, not even make the roach warren or evo, but normally it's just like I've maybe started roach speed and +1 and I just cancel them and not make any roaches, and I'll go fast spire.
I don't know yet if it's a good reaction against immortal/sentry all-in, but I do think it's a good reaction against your build. it would slaughter you, since I'm not getting less drones, nor am I making more drones, so I have a standard economy, but just a ton of mutas early on and the only way to punish that is with some sort of timing (if anything, maybe it becomes new metagame vs robo openers).
So... if you have an NA account, maybe we can test out our 2 builds ^^
I dont think any zergs do this besides what I saw nestea do in the gsl (anxiously waiting him to play more zvp). It was quite crazy.
well that s the reason why i say don t warp stalkers till you see your opponent going for a lot of roaches. it s not a problem to have zealot/sentry and 1-2 immortals while just defending lings.
we can test that out if you want, please pm me to change us ID and so on
MORE REPLAYS WILL COME TODAY
thank you all for your feedback, i m motivated to update everything
please mod change the title again to [G] PvZ 4 gate robo into 3. base
sorry and thanks |
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| AlphaDotCom United States. June 04 2012 16:07. Posts 43 | Profile # |
why do u get hallucination instead of obs or 2, i know your immortals are delayed a bit but you usually dont start them immediately when your robo is done plus obs build pretty quick now. Also hallucination becomes useless when sentries die so if they trade with you early on like in cloud kingdom you cant scout anything besides what they are attacking with. Also 1 or two obs allow you to spot his army at all times to get in much better position defensively.
Also, when do you feel you need to add a robo bay with this fast third, only if you see infestor tech? |
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| myRZeth Germany. June 04 2012 16:11. Posts 818 | Profile # |
On June 04 2012 16:07 AlphaDotCom wrote:
why do u get hallucination instead of obs or 2, i know your immortals are delayed a bit but you usually dont start them immediately when your robo is done plus obs build pretty quick now. Also hallucination becomes useless when sentries die so if they trade with you early on like in cloud kingdom you cant scout anything besides what they are attacking with. Also 1 or two obs allow you to spot his army at all times to get in much better position defensively.
Also, when do you feel you need to add a robo bay with this fast third, only if you see infestor tech?
the thing with the obs... i m also not sure there yet, i have to try that more. please remember this style is still under developement
i add the robo bay as soon as i see the infestor tech, banelings or hydras, because i don t it need it against ling roach.
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| lalapo Hong Kong. June 04 2012 16:43. Posts 13 | Profile # |
| This is a very solid build that doesn't depend on the opponent making a mistake or not scouting, thank you for taking your time to write this guide. One question though, when do you recommend taking a second robo? In your replays you took your 2nd robo a little bit late, since you were under a lot of roach pressure and probably forgot. Do you think we can take the 2nd robo the same time as the twilight council? I think the timing of the 2nd robo is an important piece as it can make defending and especially countering a lot easier. (Of course under the context that the zerg is staying on 3 base going roach pressure) |
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| Vanadiel France. June 04 2012 16:50. Posts 238 | Profile # |
| Nice guide. However, I think you should developp how to stop roach ling attack from different angle. For example, I saw Stephano on his stream giving advices to a protoss player who tried a similar build, how to split the army. What he said (it was on Daybreak) was that the protoss should keep the majority of his army defending the third base and have a couple of sentry keeping the front and getting ready to force field the ramp. |
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