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| Inkstorm United States. June 12 2012 00:40. Posts 10 | Profile # |
I really don't get everyone's obsession with the widow mine. I can see some select strategies that they counter which I'll point out, but I simply don't believe that justifies their spot in the game.
Advantages Against Each Race
vTerran
+ Show Spoiler +- Banshee / Cloaked Banshee Rush: Widow mines feel like they were designed specifically to destroy banshees. They only require a factory as tech, have an incredibly short build time, can detect cloaked, and can be placed near the mineral lines to ensure a kill. A smart player could even plant a widow mine near the ramp between their natural and lure the banshee with a SCV transfer.
- Dropship Play: Same concept as the banshee though less reliable. Medivacs usually unload in odd spots before attacking and there's also the chance that the mine might randomly target a unit that was just deployed. The 10 second is also detrimental to their effectiveness here.
vProtoss
+ Show Spoiler +- Starport Tech: Phoenixes, voidrays, and oracles all fall to the spider mine in a similar fashion as the banshee. The phoenix will be the most likely to get caught with their fast movement speed and scouting role. Oracles, on the contrary, will protection if pre-ordain is used on the nexus to scout for widow mines within the mineral line (though that also leads to predictability).
- Dark Templar: The fact that Protoss loses a 100 gas when a spider mine attaches to one of these units is horrifying for how well they counter them. A widow mine placed in a choke point can easily serve as both detection and general defense against Protoss. If not, the mines within the mineral lines will get the dark templars regardless.
vZerg
+ Show Spoiler +- Mutas: If the pattern wasn't already obvious, widow mines work exceptionally well against flying units that try to counter-attack while Terran's main force is away. The short attack-range of mutas also forces them into predictable positions while being unable to directly attack the mines. A morphed overseer added into the muta pack, however, makes this significantly less effective.
- Burrowed Infestors: Note that this only counters infestors burrowing into Terran's base if an overseer hasn't already scouted it's path. If an overseer has, then expect the infestors to either destroy them for 25 energy or use a different, safer route into the unsuspecting base.
Counters
vTerran
+ Show Spoiler +- Marines & Marauders: The bread and butter of bio as well as the main units that will be found in a counter-attack. The uncontrollable nature of widow mines means these will be the likely targets and result in inefficient trades.
- Hellions: Mech's mineral dump, a.k.a. the hellion, results in a 25 mineral for 25 gas trade. That also assumes that the hellion neither kills any unit nor scouts any valuable information in the 10 seconds it has before detonation.
- Warhouds: The warhound's high health allows them to survive the blast and their anti-mech missiles will automatically rip them out of the ground.
- Thor: Same reasoning as the warhound.
- Raven / Scans: Detection if sacrificing units isn't a reasonable option.
vZerg
+ Show Spoiler +- Zerglings & Roaches: Though roaches might not always be in a zerg army; I gaurantee that zerglings will. They're present from beginning to end and will likely be the front-runners of any counterattack. This combination of T1 units makes the resources traded simply painful for the Terran player. The saving grace is that Zerg has better things to do then micro units.
- Overlords: Designate one or two to sweep for mines. They don't take up supply so the Zerg army isn't affected and the trade in resources is beneficial.
- Broodlings, Locusts & Infested Terrans: These temporary units may not force detonations but that doesn't stop them from destroying the widow mines when given detection.
- Nydus Network: An alternate path that avoids the widow mines entirely.
- Ultralisks: Can survive multiple widow mines with the added benefit that only one can latch on at a time to prevent a guaranteed kill.
- Banelings: ...
- Spine Crawler: ...?
vProtoss
+ Show Spoiler + I'm not going to deny that losing any unit, save possibly the zealot, is a heavy loss when taken out by a widow mine. The question, however, is how often will that happen? Most Protoss builds already have some kind of innate protection against widow mines.
- Blink Stalker: The observer that grants vision on the high ground will also allow your stalkers to pick off mines as they move across the map.
- Collossus Timings: Same as before with using the observer to destroy mines.
- Immortal Timings: Let the immortals lead the way and widow mines will waste themselves to deal a measly 10 rechargeable damage.
- Warp Prism: A route along the edge of the map ensures that you avoid the widow mines and it really doesn't matter if you collect one while in the base. The small aoe and 10 second delay should warp prism to both unload and warp in a set of units before being destroyed.
- Stargate Tech: Incorporate an oracle into the build and pre-ordain the pylon on the low ground for detection (2nd part is optional and used to take out widow mines buried on the edge).
- Chargelot / Archon: Sacrifice some zealots and it's good to go.
So, what is it that everyone sees in the widow mine that I have overlooked?
- - - - - - - - - -
PS: You are delusional if you believe widow mines shouldn't be able to target air. Those are the most reasonable, cost effective units that widow mines will trade with.
Also, if anyone could help answers these questions for me then I would greatly appreciate it.
1. What happens if a unit with a widow mine attached is killed before the timer runs out?
2. Can widow mines attach to biological buildings (spine crawlers for instance)?
3. What happens to the spider mine attached when a drone begins to morph into a building?Last edit: 2012-06-12 03:25:29 |
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| ZenithM France. June 12 2012 00:41. Posts 8301 | Profile # |
On June 11 2012 23:48 Noocta wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 23:33 s3rp wrote:
On June 11 2012 23:32 TeeTS wrote:
So, after finally having the time to carefully read those stats...
The Reaper change will make them much more easy to use (range 7, hello? isi kiting for everyone!)
Otherwise the terran units are simply boring. Battle hellion and warhound are just plain strong into your face units, nothing tricky, sneaky about them. I would've loved to see an interesting spellcaster for terran instead. Ghosts are cool and useful, but Raven are just bullshit, I truly hate them.
Zerg and Protoss have got very interesting spellcasters and the tempest.... I think a 22 range unit with a slow shooting high dmg shot can be really cool, maybe really imbalanced. I'm very interested to see how it's gonna work out. The Mothership Core looks way too powerful. You'll get much sooner than many may think right now. Especially the energy recharge is insanely good. I think this will have to be fixed during the beta.
The Viper may also have to be changed. I don't think Zerg need a second unit that manipulates enemy movement directly (fungal growth!). This will turn out to be way too much, I'm very very sure at this point.
Overall it looks good. I would love blizzard for thrashing the warhound or the raven and come up with a new spellcaster for terran. Everything else will turn out in the beta, I think.
This is wrong from what i've heard they still have the same range.
They will need to buff their range or something anyway. Reaper unable to kite queens make them uselness pretty much. And you can't even bunker rush that effectively with reaper now that they don't have the building attack.
I agree. 1 reaper won't do shit against the UltraQueen. I think if you commit to 3 though you could hop in the main, kill 1 or 2 drones without losing any reaper and hop back, but for one, do you really want to commit to 3 reapers? ("no" is the answer), and for two, zerg probably has speed by then and reapers are fucked without their own speed upgrade... |
| | MarineKing is my way of Terran. |  |
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| mick007 Belgium. June 12 2012 00:46. Posts 2 | Profile # |
I have 3 quick questions regarding the ghost, the corruptors and the raven for those who play at the mlg :
- Do corruptors have the "syphonning ability" in Hots ? Or was the ability removed ?
- Do the ghosts have the new cloaking ability (something like "x" seconds cloaking duration with "y" seconds cd maybe?)
- Any little modifications about the raven ? (slight redution in cost, build time slighty reduced ?)
thanks  |
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 YouMake United States. June 12 2012 01:00. Posts 262 | Profile Blog # |
On June 09 2012 17:57 firehand101 wrote:
Spoiler would be nice, but other than that good job!
And warhound price does not sound too bad, it is like a mini thor so it should be a lot cheaper
It's pretty much a Goliath from SC1 so does that mean big thor is gone? |
| | It's time to kick ass and chew bubble gum, but all out of bubble gum! - Duke Nukem! |
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| ZeromuS Canada. June 12 2012 01:04. Posts 8291 | Profile Blog # |
On June 12 2012 01:00 YouMake wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 17:57 firehand101 wrote:
Spoiler would be nice, but other than that good job!
And warhound price does not sound too bad, it is like a mini thor so it should be a lot cheaper
It's pretty much a Goliath from SC1 so does that mean big thor is gone?
No, the warhound doesnt shoot up so the thor still in. |
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| SarcasmMonster June 12 2012 01:05. Posts 2897 | Profile # |
On June 12 2012 01:00 YouMake wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 17:57 firehand101 wrote:
Spoiler would be nice, but other than that good job!
And warhound price does not sound too bad, it is like a mini thor so it should be a lot cheaper
It's pretty much a Goliath from SC1 so does that mean big thor is gone?
The Warhound is nothing like the Goliath in terms of gameplay... |
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| Noocta France. June 12 2012 01:08. Posts 8626 | Profile # |
On June 12 2012 00:37 Jermstuddog wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 00:08 ilikeLIONZ wrote:
tbh: the viper just seems incredibly imbalanced with its hook ability.
About as imba as infestors with neural parasite. Amirite?
They isn''th any counter play at " My unit got pulled"
Against NP, you kill the infestors who can't move and it end. Counter play.Last edit: 2012-06-12 01:08:34 |
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| Teoita Italy. June 12 2012 01:09. Posts 4252 | Profile Blog # |
On June 12 2012 00:37 Jermstuddog wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 00:08 ilikeLIONZ wrote:
tbh: the viper just seems incredibly imbalanced with its hook ability.
About as imba as infestors with neural parasite. Amirite?
It's a bit different though; you can focus fire an infestor channeling neural, but once you get the abduct off that unit is basically down for good. We'll see how it plays out.Last edit: 2012-06-12 01:10:05 |
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| Charon1979 Austria. June 12 2012 01:11. Posts 309 | Profile # |
So, what is it that everyone sees in the widow mine that I have overlooked?
You just see its defensive capabilities while other people see their huge aggression potential too. By the time you do a reactor hellion expand, you could have produced 6 mines, burrowing them next to gateways (and kill every unit coming out before detection) or right under queens, in mineral lines, or anywhere you think 200 guaranteed damage would add nicely. |
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| moskonia Israel. June 12 2012 01:12. Posts 932 | Profile # |
On June 12 2012 01:00 YouMake wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 17:57 firehand101 wrote:
Spoiler would be nice, but other than that good job!
And warhound price does not sound too bad, it is like a mini thor so it should be a lot cheaper
It's pretty much a Goliath from SC1 so does that mean big thor is gone?
It is very different from the Goliath in SC1, since they don't attack air and they have anti mech focus with the missiles. Also, the Thor is still here |
| | "He who learns to walk, should never crawl again" |  |
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| s3rp Germany. June 12 2012 01:39. Posts 2798 | Profile # |
On June 12 2012 00:41 ZenithM wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 23:48 Noocta wrote:
On June 11 2012 23:33 s3rp wrote:
On June 11 2012 23:32 TeeTS wrote:
So, after finally having the time to carefully read those stats...
The Reaper change will make them much more easy to use (range 7, hello? isi kiting for everyone!)
Otherwise the terran units are simply boring. Battle hellion and warhound are just plain strong into your face units, nothing tricky, sneaky about them. I would've loved to see an interesting spellcaster for terran instead. Ghosts are cool and useful, but Raven are just bullshit, I truly hate them.
Zerg and Protoss have got very interesting spellcasters and the tempest.... I think a 22 range unit with a slow shooting high dmg shot can be really cool, maybe really imbalanced. I'm very interested to see how it's gonna work out. The Mothership Core looks way too powerful. You'll get much sooner than many may think right now. Especially the energy recharge is insanely good. I think this will have to be fixed during the beta.
The Viper may also have to be changed. I don't think Zerg need a second unit that manipulates enemy movement directly (fungal growth!). This will turn out to be way too much, I'm very very sure at this point.
Overall it looks good. I would love blizzard for thrashing the warhound or the raven and come up with a new spellcaster for terran. Everything else will turn out in the beta, I think.
This is wrong from what i've heard they still have the same range.
They will need to buff their range or something anyway. Reaper unable to kite queens make them uselness pretty much. And you can't even bunker rush that effectively with reaper now that they don't have the building attack.
I agree. 1 reaper won't do shit against the UltraQueen. I think if you commit to 3 though you could hop in the main, kill 1 or 2 drones without losing any reaper and hop back, but for one, do you really want to commit to 3 reapers? ("no" is the answer), and for two, zerg probably has speed by then and reapers are fucked without their own speed upgrade...
The guy in the battle report build 3 Reapers and although the Zerg had zero lings or spines he killed 4 Drones at most before they died . Great investment. |
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| Inkstorm United States. June 12 2012 01:51. Posts 10 | Profile # |
On June 12 2012 01:11 Charon1979 wrote:
You just see its defensive capabilities while other people see their huge aggression potential too. By the time you do a reactor hellion expand, you could have produced 6 mines, burrowing them next to gateways (and kill every unit coming out before detection) or right under queens, in mineral lines, or anywhere you think 200 guaranteed damage would add nicely.
Let's take things one step at a time.
1. You open the with a reactor factory build and produce 6 widow mines. Awesome, widow mines can be good but it's important to note that we no longer have hellions.
2. You take your 6 widow mines into your opponent's base.
- Your Protoss opponent didn't make a forge which would grant detection (i.e. cannons), wall himself off to prevent units from entering his base, research warpgate so that his T1 units come out directly from his gateways, or create any units to destroy the widow mines whlie they spend 3 seconds burrowing.
- Your Terran opponent also didn't wall himself, create any marines which could destroy the spider mines from a safe distance, or upgrade his CC into a observatory which would grant him scans.
- Your Zerg opponent has no zerglings which would trip the mines nor any that would attack them. In addition, their queen is spamming the stop command so she also attack or simply waddle away. If that wasn't enough, they didn't see the widow mines move on their creep nor have a spine crawler gaurding their base.
3. You take out some of their T1 units and all of your widow mines are now dead.
So... how again does this make widow mines good again?
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On June 12 2012 02:11 willoc wrote:
Just like banelings they will totally suck! Everyone always stays 100% focused on their army ball when they are moving it around the map anyway! /sarcasm.
How can compare rolling banelings with widow mines?
Banelings: Detonates on contact (or manually if necessary) with a bonus to light units which they're supposed to counter. They also serve the role of weakening your opponent's army so that the muta / zergling back-up can clear away the remains.
Widow Mines: Take 3 seconds to burrow, independently select a unit to attach to within their range (which I believe is 4), and have a 10 second delay before exploding...
Tell me how that works half your spider mines are destroyed before burrowing at your opponent's feet while the other half are don't matter because your opponent took two steps back.Last edit: 2012-06-12 02:26:06 |
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| Jermstuddog United States. June 12 2012 01:54. Posts 2054 | Profile Blog # |
On June 12 2012 01:09 Teoita wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 00:37 Jermstuddog wrote:
On June 12 2012 00:08 ilikeLIONZ wrote:
tbh: the viper just seems incredibly imbalanced with its hook ability.
About as imba as infestors with neural parasite. Amirite?
It's a bit different though; you can focus fire an infestor channeling neural, but once you get the abduct off that unit is basically down for good. We'll see how it plays out.
I was more pointing out how NP got nerfed from 9 range to useless.
And people are already complaining about abduct from 7 range and it hasn't even hit the game yet. Can't wait for the future 4 range abduct... Will be awesome... |
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| zhurai United States. June 12 2012 02:01. Posts 5560 | Profile Blog # |
I'm still saying that abduct should be like devourer/pudge hook cause it'll be kinda funny
I also don't think that the widow mines + swarm hosts' locusts should be able to shoot up
(also if the locusts dont' hit up, then maybe I can use ravens to try to hsm the swarmhosts - like lurker+sci vessel, but atm I don't think you can do that cause the locusts would just kill it...) |
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| Yourmomsbasement Canada. June 12 2012 02:08. Posts 35 | Profile # |
Hydra speed and burrow charge for ultras will bring back the feeling of zerg swarming, fast and fragile is how I like my zerg. In WoL zerg felt so slow... hydras almost never see play, ultra is so easy to micro against, broods....
Now we can mix in speed hydras to protect broods and have a better reason to switch the ultra!
Love that the mineral lockout is not purely time based, the spine crawler hitting them off fixed all my fears of Protoss becoming mass harassment.
Warhound: THANK YOU. TvT really needs this! Not sure how useful it will be against other races. Battle mode hellions don't make sense as far as storyline. Why do hitpoints change? I fell that it should be a change to armour, +2 in battle mode. Like if a transformer morphed to a mode that allowed it to be better covered by plating at the cost of speed. curious how it will work if they keep it as hitpoint change, what if it's taken damage before morphing? Will it scale or just stay at the level of damage ie: 50/100 hp scaled down to 25/50 or still 50/50. |
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| willoc Canada. June 12 2012 02:11. Posts 982 | Profile # |
On June 12 2012 01:51 Inkstorm wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 01:11 Charon1979 wrote:
You just see its defensive capabilities while other people see their huge aggression potential too. By the time you do a reactor hellion expand, you could have produced 6 mines, burrowing them next to gateways (and kill every unit coming out before detection) or right under queens, in mineral lines, or anywhere you think 200 guaranteed damage would add nicely.
. 1. You open the with a reactor factory build and produce 6 widow mines. Awesome, widow mines can be good but it's important to note that we no longer have hellions. 2. You take your 6 widow mines into your opponent's base. - Your Protoss opponent didn't make a forge which would grant detection (i.e. cannons), wall himself off to prevent units from entering his base, research warpgate so that his T1 units come out directly from his gateways, or create any units to destroy the widow mines whlie they spend 3 seconds burrowing. - Your Terran opponent also didn't wall himself, create any marines which could destroy the spider mines from a safe distance, or upgrade his CC into a observatory which would grant him scans. - Your Zerg opponent has no zerglings which would trip the mines nor any that would attack them. In addition, their queen is spamming the stop command so she also attack or simply waddle away. If that wasn't enough, they didn't see the widow mines move on their creep nor have a spine crawler gaurding their base. 3. You take out some of their T1 units and all of your widow mines are now dead. So... how again does this make widow mines good again?
Just like banelings they will totally suck! Everyone always stays 100% focused on their army ball when they are moving it around the map anyway! /sarcasm. |
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| Yourmomsbasement Canada. June 12 2012 02:11. Posts 35 | Profile # |
On June 12 2012 02:01 zhurai wrote:
I'm still saying that abduct should be like devourer/pudge hook cause it'll be kinda funny
I also don't think that the widow mines + swarm hosts' locusts should be able to shoot up
(also if the locusts dont' hit up, then maybe I can use ravens to try to hsm the swarmhosts - like lurker+sci vessel, but atm I don't think you can do that cause the locusts would just kill it...)
You'd send a raven out without any support? Try sending a few marines to engage the locust, they don't seem to be very strong units. |
| | General game streamer and improving SC2 player |
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| Plansix United States. June 12 2012 02:13. Posts 5378 | Profile Blog # |
On June 12 2012 01:54 Jermstuddog wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 01:09 Teoita wrote:
On June 12 2012 00:37 Jermstuddog wrote:
On June 12 2012 00:08 ilikeLIONZ wrote:
tbh: the viper just seems incredibly imbalanced with its hook ability.
About as imba as infestors with neural parasite. Amirite?
It's a bit different though; you can focus fire an infestor channeling neural, but once you get the abduct off that unit is basically down for good. We'll see how it plays out.
I was more pointing out how NP got nerfed from 9 range to useless. And people are already complaining about abduct from 7 range and it hasn't even hit the game yet. Can't wait for the future 4 range abduct... Will be awesome...
It is easier just to change the distance it pulls, rather than the range of the spell. It allows them to balance it's effects on the battle without forcing the controling play to put a super pricey unit at extream risk every time. |
| | Nony on PvT: "It's not imbalanced, the protoss wins and then there is a five minute death animation for the Terran" |  |
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| Snoodles June 12 2012 02:22. Posts 393 | Profile # |
| Can anyone recreate this into the HoTs custom map? I for one want to see how TvT plays out now. I mean, the warhound is cheaper than the tank, more mobile, directly counters it. What is that going to look like? |
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| gurrpp United States. June 12 2012 02:26. Posts 407 | Profile Blog # |
On June 12 2012 00:40 Inkstorm wrote:
PS: You are delusional if you believe widow mines shouldn't be able to target air. Those are the most reasonable, cost effective units that widow mines will trade with.
Also, if anyone could help answers these questions for me then I would greatly appreciate it.
1. What happens if a unit with a widow mine attached is killed before the timer runs out?
2. Can widow mines attach to biological buildings (spine crawlers for instance)?
3. What happens to the spider mine attached when a drone begins to morph into a building?
1. No explosion at all. This is why the widow mine will be useless in main engagements. Your units at the front that get mined will either die from enemy fire or can be easily focused by your own units.
2 and 3 are interesting, but I haven't tried them out.
I found that the widow mines were the most useful as an aggressive map control tool(rather than being used defensively against drops), especially against zerg. Often zergs will move their vipers between their base and army to recharge energy. Catching out a vipers with widow mines is very cost effective. |
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