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| 13Julia Canada. June 13 2012 06:59. Posts 77 | Profile # |
They are generalizations, but it's a bit of improvement over the 1st post ;p
A good zerg should always defend vs certain builds, or he sucks 
I see it like this: doing a 2 gate rush, you give the game to your opponent, the pressure is on him. Either he can play well defend and win/gain advantage, or play badly and lose/fall behind - but it's on him, once you choose such play, you give away the possibility to win on your opponent's skill. There are much better and open plays than main builds vs zerg.
DT in pvp... well, maybe it's just me and the fact that i suck doing DTs in pvp. Sure you can win with them. Consistantly, on high level? I really don't think so, while you can be consistent with goon/reavers. There are situation when to make DTs, sure.
Of course nothing is black/white. But I'm really giving a nice advice here when I talk about main builds in pvz :> They are very very limited. Whereas FE is so much less limited and more powerful play. |
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| JMave Singapore. June 13 2012 09:46. Posts 1754 | Profile Blog # |
if you have good worker split and early game mining efficiency control, you can easily get the assimilator at 11 without having to delay the probe at all.
On June 10 2012 09:25 Miwyfe wrote:
Welcome.
Heres a dangerously simplistic but trying to be noob friendly summary:
PvT
1 zealot then 3 Dragoons with range.
Expand.
Add a gate and get more Goons and also get Observers.
Expand.
Add two more gates.
Get all the other tech buildings (citadel, forge, templar archives and star, arbiter tribunal).
Go up to 10 to 12 gates.
this is quite ok but you have to send the zealot out first to deal some harassment otherwise the delay in the core and subsequently range can be potentially deadly if he decide son an fd. |
| | 火心 Jealous. I always loved that feeling when I was young. Embrace it. | |
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| JMave Singapore. June 13 2012 09:49. Posts 1754 | Profile Blog # |
On June 13 2012 06:59 13Julia wrote:
DT in pvp... well, maybe it's just me and the fact that i suck doing DTs in pvp. Sure you can win with them. Consistantly, on high level? I really don't think so, while you can be consistent with goon/reavers. There are situation when to make DTs, sure.
on higher levels, the game plan goes far beyond the dt tech. the dt gives you the opportunity to get probe kills at the mineral line if he is careless but at the very least, it will give you enough map control so you can expand much faster. |
| | 火心 Jealous. I always loved that feeling when I was young. Embrace it. | |
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| Chef June 13 2012 09:56. Posts 9708 | Profile Blog # |
2gate is not all in. If the Zerg has a stiff defence then you can transition into a lot of different strategies. What it gets you used to is know when the Zerg has too much and attacking is not worth it (therefore transition), or it is worth it and you can do a little damage and get a little ahead and then transition (even vs a good zerg, tho it might not outright kill him good micro will do damage).
You are incorrect about 1base pvz builds are limited, because that was how PvZ was played for a very long time and there was a great deal of variety in that match up. Two base builds give you more gas to get more stuff simultaneously, but most players end up just getting storm obs and a bulky main army because they have no finesse when they are new. 1 base builds allow new players a small enough number of units and macro to manage that they can learn the finesse of StarCraft and gain skills that are hard to gain when you are barely managing to macro and the answer to your loses is almost always you didn't macro well enough. 1 base builds can give you really clear ideas of why you lost that go beyond basic mechanics, such as 'I shouldn't have been so aggressive with that reaver and lost it so easily' or whatever. It also forces you to think about the game on your own because there are not many guides these days on how to do it, so you can't blindly follow them.
If you say you can't win with DTs at a high level, you are really foolish too. DTs have always been a strategy in rotation among pro players, and that is the highest level.
2base builds are good and will give you free wins at D vs zergs without optimized builds to defend many locations at once, but you will hit a wall once you find zergs who know what they are doing and find you learn very slowly the subtleties of StarCraft. And if the Zerg is smart and does an aggressive strategy which works vs dumb D protoss players who don't really understand how they're meant to defend an FE (it's actually quite hard vs a Zerg with a few optomized 'all-ins'), then you will again be slow to learn the skills that actually involve pressuring a zerg (and not just overwhelming them with a huge army because they play passive but don't know how to power drones to compete with protoss FE).
I won't say there aren't skills to both, and definitely at the highest levels the FE has been favoured in almost all PvZs, but I will say for a new player looking to learn this game, they will get a lot more out of aggressive strategies that allow them to think about the ways that they can control their opponent's actions and figure out what they're doing, than passive economic strategies which try to just barely defend everything so that you can come out with an overwhelming force (and for which the aggression and controlling of opponent's actions starts 7 minutes later in the game, many months later for the player learning, who has to learn how to survive those first 7 minutes and find opponents that they how to set themselves up to play that mid game without just dying to the first big attack.) A nooby's one base (to start..) games will tend to be much more dynamic and back and forth than his FE games, and the ones that aren't will only last 4 minutes instead of 12.
Fast speedlots with +1, fast storm, fast reavers, fast DTs, fast corsair... 1 base protoss will get to do a lot and experience a lot of builds, where as noob FE player will be overwhelmed by the amount of macro he has to do and probably not do any sort of harassment or pressure play, just make a perfect big army of zealots and dragoons and storm and obs and 1a2a3a4a hoping his army is bigger than the Zergs, thinking 'well if I macroed perfectly, then this must be the optimal time for attack!' and nothing else. Maybe he takes a third gas and starts shuttle dropping 25 minutes into a game that didn't end, but he does it with no finesse because his units aren't precious to him. He has too much difficulty optimizing 2base reaver drop because there is too much to learn already just in getting to 2base, let alone teching to something not speedlot storm.
Well, I've written way too much, but that's my defence of 1base play at this level. I don't think you learn much about StarCraft when you overwhelm yourself with build orders beyond your skill level. |
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| 13Julia Canada. June 13 2012 21:30. Posts 77 | Profile # |
"You are incorrect about 1base pvz builds are limited, because that was how PvZ was played for a very long time and there was a great deal of variety in that match up"
That is why fe is so much better and 1 base builds are not played if you want to win consistently.
I doubt a new player will take two years of time to understand every build and after those 2 years switch to fast exp, because it is better.
As with all, I invite to test all theorys in play on high ranks. Both main builds and dts :>
_
http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/S.A-Brzoza.html |
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| ThAsinineOne August 11 2012 11:26. Posts 6 | Profile # |
Silver Level Protoss, I win almost every game that is within 15 minutes but when the game drags on, I tend to lose focus and lose the game...
Any tips on late game strategy as protoss? |
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| FlaShFTW United States. August 11 2012 11:40. Posts 4960 | Profile Blog # |
On August 11 2012 11:26 ThAsinineOne wrote:
Silver Level Protoss, I win almost every game that is within 15 minutes but when the game drags on, I tend to lose focus and lose the game...
Any tips on late game strategy as protoss?
>silver level.
wrong thread much? |
| | Never Surrender. Never GG. Always Fighting. BW4LYF. Woo Jung Ho Never Forget. |
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| dRaW Canada. August 11 2012 12:15. Posts 3516 | Profile Blog # |
| i recommend playing lots of 3v3,4v4 and so on asia server or fish because there are way more games than on iccup, and you will just get used to early game mechanics and micro. (money maps are better for end game learning, i.e no rush map max 0 clutter, etc so you get used to macroing up). Maybe after 500games or so, you can start to dive into 1v1 and learn build orders. (the reason is because most of the ppl you play in bw already know how to play, so you can't learn much in 1v1 situations when you are trying to learn the game, follow a build, then compete against someone better than you all at the same time) |
| | I don't need luck, luck is for noobs, good luck to you though | |
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| tryummm August 11 2012 13:26. Posts 762 | Profile # |
On June 13 2012 09:56 Chef wrote:
I won't say there aren't skills to both, and definitely at the highest levels the FE has been favoured in almost all PvZs, but I will say for a new player looking to learn this game, they will get a lot more out of aggressive strategies that allow them to think about the ways that they can control their opponent's actions and figure out what they're doing, than passive economic strategies which try to just barely defend everything so that you can come out with an overwhelming force (and for which the aggression and controlling of opponent's actions starts 7 minutes later in the game, many months later for the player learning, who has to learn how to survive those first 7 minutes and find opponents that they how to set themselves up to play that mid game without just dying to the first big attack.) A nooby's one base (to start..) games will tend to be much more dynamic and back and forth than his FE games, and the ones that aren't will only last 4 minutes instead of 12.
I don't think your statement could be any more wrong. And your interpretations of playing a macro oriented style are completely wrong. Hence, I am lead to believe you don't even understand macro based strategies.
The reason I argue a player should learn passive, macro based strategies is because it forces the player to learn optimized tech patterns, optimized micro skills, scout timings and optimized unit distributions. These four things are generally what separate professional players from non professional players. Anybody can copy an all in and perform the build for the all in and beat an opponent who doesn't know how to micro optimally and who doesn't understand scout timings (Pretty much any player on iccup). All in builds are easy to execute unit wise (It generally takes me 2-3 games without an opponent to learn an all in from a proleague game and get my units/buildings at the same game time as a pro gamer). And its much easier to attack and win with an all in than it is to play a macro oriented game and defend an all in your not prepared for. The reality is, players on iccup and fish have not mastered the essential skills of the game to be prepared to deal with all ins. First of all, most players don't understand scout timings and they don't even know what their scouting Probe/SCV/etc...should be looking for or how the scout timings works in the flow of their strategy. Without this essential component, its literally impossible to play optimally in any situation. The only way you can learn how to play optimally is by knowing exactly what your opponent is doing, 100% of the time, if you are in a situation where your opponent could do something that requires different strategies to deal with it.
An easy example is PvT. In the PvT matchup if a Terran goes for a Barracks CC the Protoss will play differently after building their Robotics. No matter what, the standard build order in PvT is exactly the same until the Robotics (It doesn't matter if the Terran is going 2 Fact or Racks CC or FD, etc...) a perfectly standard PvT build doesn't deviate until the Robotics has been built. Against a 2 Fact, FD, or Siege Expand the Protoss then adds two Gateways. Against a Racks CC the Protoss rather expands then later adds 3 Gateways. Therefore, all a Protoss needs to look for in PvT is whether or not the Terran is doing a racks CC or not (This is not counting proxies, though a Protoss doesn't necessarily have to scout a proxy to stop it). This is why for practically an entire season of proleague Protoss players were scouting with their initial Dragoon (Terrans then began to go CC before barracks or using proxy builds so Protoss players have started Probe scouting again). So how come practically every player on iCCup and Fish scout with their probe and run it around the Terran base until it dies? Its because the player doesn't understand scout timings, they don't know what to look for when scouting, and they don't understand the matchup. This is a byproduct of developing their skills based on attempting to get cheap wins with aggressive builds rather than playing strategically (aka macro oriented and passive) and learning how to play optimally against any opening their opponent chooses.
The only reason a player would choose to play aggressively is to win games without actually developing the skill set to be a good enough player to win with macro oriented builds. If you play macro based and learn tech paths, scout timings, unit distributions, and micro management techniques then when you do choose to use aggressive builds they will be a lot stronger. This is because you learn how to make them more deceptive, it allows you to understand why the timing exists, and it strengthens your transition if the attack is stopped.
Essentially I think the best way to improve in BW is to stop exclusively caring about winning and losing and learn how to play optimally. If you lose to a strategy watch professional games and see what the professional players did differently and then identify why they played differently from you. If you just look for scout timings, tech patterns, micro techniques, and unit distributions then BW really isn't that difficult of a game to play. Its just that a lot of players seem to be too lazy to study the game and learn how to play optimally. |
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| therockmanxx Peru. August 11 2012 13:50. Posts 1095 | Profile # |
Whenever I see people talk about playing BW after SC2
I think of this
This is just a joke:
+ Show Spoiler + |
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| 3FFA United States. August 11 2012 14:12. Posts 2656 | Profile Blog # |
| Whenever people continuously bump old threads and then respond to super old posts as if they were made yesterday I question many things... |
| | I no longer expect the best in people. Sadly, I am beginning to expect much worse. |
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| Severedevil United States. August 12 2012 01:05. Posts 4499 | Profile Blog # |
>One-base PvZ
Yes, please. At the professional level, it may only be viable because it's unexpected, but at every other level, it's fine. Besides, if you've not tried to combat speedlings without a walled-and-cannoned natural, how will you learn why Forge FE became the standard?
A one-base corsair opening (zealot core zealot, perhaps) is simple, safe, and flexible, and lets you see everything. It's a solid platform from which to do whatever you want.
On June 12 2012 02:20 Chef wrote:It's 11, lol. 12 gas 14 core is the old unoptimised way, 11 gas 13 core is the new way (people didn't do it before because I guess the didn't want to risk not having 100 minerals between constant probes, or minerals lines weren't efficient enough to get them those 100 minerals while still having constant probes).
I'm pretty sure 10 gate 12 gas 14 core is what you get if you scout early. |
| | My strategy is to fork people. |
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