[D] MKP's MMM vs Zerg

Hi guys

As most of us would've seen at MLG, in Game 3 MKP used Marine Marauders and LOTS of Medivacs to fight Stephano. I don't remember if Stephano had blings and infestors, Im pretty sure he did. PLus he had roaches.

So basically, as a Terran I hate seeing blings splash damage melting my marines, in MKP's case he used Marauders to tank the bling splash damage too.

I would love to hear your opinion whether this style (MMM with heavy medivacs) will actually work vs Zerg? Or you need insane micro to achieve this and only people like MKP can do it? I assume so because you need to split perfectly, etc. etc without the help of tanks.

Or if this does not work...then I guess we will just go back to marine/tank/medivac standard style?

Please discuss, would love to hear some people's opinions regarding his crazy play vs Stephano and whether this will be viable vs Z or not.

Regarding the imbalance, hilarious to see Zergs defending themselves....

HoMM Estonia. June 11 2012 16:02. Posts 560

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banes are still ok vs marauders, stephano lost since he was unable to kill the medivacs, he wouldve won if he could afford a few more infestors to cover both fungalling the army and fungaling the medivacs

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Battousai13 United States. June 11 2012 16:07. Posts 570

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MarineKing's play sits on a razor's edge. It is very dependent on his ability to micro. At the same time, it's a double-edge blade because a mis-step in micro or decision making and it all falls apart.

While the overwhelming amount of Medivacs surely helped MarineKing weather the swarm of Stephano, it was his unit composition that rounded it out. MarineKing had just enough Marauders to make the Banelings and Infestors not cost efficient. When this happens, Ling, Baneling, and Infestor will not defeat bio play from Terran. Being unable to kill the Medivacs was just the last nail in the coffin.

Yoshi Kirishima United States. June 11 2012 16:09. Posts 9002

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Well MKP's been doing this style for a long time, and a few other terrans have done it too, though not as often. Seeing as it works in Code S, yes it does work, but obviously you need decent micro.

@HoMM unless the baneling hits the maximum amount of marauders, I would not say they are even close to OK. You need that gas to be killing marines or for infestors to fungal the marine/medivacs, or else the high medivac number will keep any roach/ling you have from dealing enough damage to him.

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ETisME Hong Kong. June 11 2012 16:15. Posts 4835

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a few terrans have been doing it too but it requires a lot of good micro. In fact, his micro is so good that he just pushes and sometimes ignoring creep all together.
it has a different kind of micro, letting marauders to act as a barrier between banelings and marines and the marine splitting.

plus this do fairly well against roach ling baneling infestors style and just lings infestors still.

Beeblistical Australia. June 11 2012 16:31. Posts 26

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In lower leagues, pre splitting before an engagement can help out if you're using MMM against zerg. This is bronze to platinum I think?

Even if your micro isn't hardcore like the King's pre splitting does wonders and when he rushes in to engage you with lings and infestors at the back; he'll quickly realize that his fungals won't do much but he'll fungal anyway. Meanwhile your army is pre split and in a concave and you're just a firing squad for those lings. During the battle try pulling back groups of units like, whenever they're almost surrounded. It's like kiting chargelots with MMM you pull back different groups depending on what situation they are in but you do it group by group and maintain a concave.

Also, if you go MMM against zerg and they go ling infestor you can always chuck in ghosts for EMPs and snipes. MarineKing doesn't do this because he's a boss but it's not too hard for someone going MMM to throw in ghosts. They are from barracks with tech labs anyway. Get cloak, most zergs don't keep an overseer with their army unless they know they need it. So grab 5 ghosts get cloak and surprise him with surprise EMPs and snipes.

Basically, MMM should work against zerg, it's just that you need to know how to utilize your bio units properly against infestor ling. It should work despite you not having marineking-esque micro. I am platinum terran and being the Marineking fan I am, I copy his style and build and against zerg I do use MMM and this is what my experience has taught me.

Omnomnom

FabledIntegral United States. June 11 2012 16:31. Posts 8357

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ling/bling/muta is a much stronger counter to this style. MMM is fairly strong vs infestor/ling and infestor/bane/ling. It seems counterintuitive, but mutas are super strong vs it.

derpinator June 11 2012 16:31. Posts 74

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I would love to hear your opinion whether this style (MMM with heavy medivacs) will actually work vs Zerg?

Im still amazed why most terrans havent figured out yet that MMM is THE way to play TvZ.

FabledIntegral United States. June 11 2012 16:33. Posts 8357

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On June 11 2012 16:31 derpinator wrote:

Show nested quote +

Im still amazed why most terrans havent figured out yet that MMM is THE way to play TvZ.

It's very susceptible to mass baneling busts, as well as super heavy ling/bling with fast ups WITHOUT teching to infestors. Slow teching to mutas makes it very strong, but far more delayed than the 11 or 12 minute mark.

derpinator June 11 2012 16:37. Posts 74

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On June 11 2012 16:33 FabledIntegral wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

It's very susceptible to mass baneling busts, as well as super heavy ling/bling with fast ups WITHOUT teching to infestors. Slow teching to mutas makes it very strong, but far more delayed than the 11 or 12 minute mark.

If you have a wall of 3raxes you can defend the bust very well. I do agree super heavy lin/bling is a good reaction to MMM but I wouldnt call it autoloss for terran.

SiNKami United States. June 11 2012 16:37. Posts 1756

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Ive been playing mmm vs z for a while now. MarineKing actually did one of my builds vs stephano. I was really shocked.

Im black. TrainerRedNA.382 "It's not about how many fights you've won, it's about who you've fought"

MHT Sweden. June 11 2012 16:42. Posts 990

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Tried it for awhile now on ladder and it work very well with even with shit micro on plat - low-dia. Just basic select marines and move behind the marauders before the engagement usually wins the fight. Try to stay as aggressive as possible and don't let him get a deathball.

FabledIntegral United States. June 11 2012 16:43. Posts 8357

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On June 11 2012 16:37 derpinator wrote:

Show nested quote +

If you have a wall of 3raxes you can defend the bust very well. I do agree super heavy lin/bling is a good reaction to MMM but I wouldnt call it autoloss for terran.

You still need a bunker.

This is coming from experience from someone who walls in with 3 rax and plays MMM vs Zerg since the release of the game, sometimes mixing in Thors, and very occasionally BFH.

T.O.P.

Hong Kong. June 11 2012 16:43. Posts 4442

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On June 11 2012 16:37 derpinator wrote:

Show nested quote +

If you have a wall of 3raxes you can defend the bust very well. I do agree super heavy lin/bling is a good reaction to MMM but I wouldnt call it autoloss for terran.

Think he's talking about mid game mass bane busts. Either way, 3 rax wall is not the way to go when doing this build imo. You should open 1 rax cc reactor hellion into this build. Puts much more pressure vs zerg early on and it makes you safe vs early ling bane busts.

Oracle comes in, Scvs go down, never a miscommunication.

mizU United States. June 11 2012 17:23. Posts 9976

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I do this against Zergs on ladder and it really comes down to multitasking and being constantly aggressive.

I open with 2rax fact cc with hellion marauder, similar to what polt does, and then it comes down to trying to limit creep and keep Z's drone count low. You do need really good micro, bungling one engagement can really, really hurt. I think Polt gets siege tanks for pure defensive purposes.

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ysnake Bosnia-Herzegovina. June 11 2012 17:26. Posts 194

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It really comes down to your micro. For example, MKP lost a game in which Stephano caught him off guard (he was on the creep, way inside Zerg territory), Fungal on his entire army and Banelings ate Marines.

That was the only time I saw his entire army melt away like that.

Still ended up winning 2-1 though.

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Mahtasooma Germany. June 11 2012 17:37. Posts 374

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Medivacs are the counter to infestors if you can avoid them getting fungaled (which is pretty hard, agreed).

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Flonomenalz Nigeria. June 11 2012 17:56. Posts 2862

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I think it's a metagame shift in TvZ.

Back when us Z's were going Muta/Ling/Bane, MMM fell out of style due to marauders being pretty useless, and Terrans went to marine tank/pure marine strats (with the occasional mech). But with Ling/Infestor, pure marine and marine tank aren't as good as MMM.

I think it's good as long as you micro well.

I love crazymoving

KnofiSan Germany. June 11 2012 18:06. Posts 1

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Hey Guys,
since the queen range-buff hellions aren't that viable anymore in TvZ imo.
Inspired by MKP's bio-builds against zerg, I've been experimenting with 1rax-fe into bio-play and doing quite well.
Since you just skip hellions, you're able to put some pressure onto the zerg with at least 12-14 marines at the 7 minute mark.
If the zerg is going for an early third(~06:-7:00) you're able to deny that base going up and also snipe some overlords all over the map. In addition to that you can kill off a good amount of lings,utilizing mineralpatches and other chokepoints in your favour.
The keypoint is not to overcommit with this force.
After this push, you should build your third inside your main. The goal is setting up a good economy for your everlasting attacks against the zerg.
At the 10-11min mark you're able to execute a devastating attack with 1/1 ,stim, combat shields and 2 medivacs, having mostly marines but also couple of marauders in your mix.
NOTE: This push can be executed slightly earlier, depending on the infestor-timing.

The maingoal of this bio-build is to exhaust the zerg's most important ressource: larvae
If you pressure the zerg permanently he will not be able to drone up and invest many larva in his eco, cause you're forcing an in-time-reaction out of the zerg to fend off your pressure(that means you will be able to keep up in economy and get ahead, since the pressure continues).

It's time to kick ass and chew bubble gum... and I'm all outta gum.

BoggieMan June 11 2012 18:09. Posts 460

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Since litterally every zerg started going ling infestor and the queenbuff alot of terran players started experimenting with new stuff.

MKP has always done this crazy bio with no tanks style, however it recently started getting more popular among some players.
Some other terrans has started to do the opposite, adding in more tanks as a reaction to linginfestor.

i don't think theres a best style for the time being, mostly comes down to personal prefference or what fits your style of play best.

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