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| TangSC Canada. June 12 2012 07:17. Posts 1614 | Profile Blog # |
[G] DRG's Roach/Ling/Bane "All-in" (Or is it?)
Good day ladies and gentlemen of Team Liquid, I'd like to thank you all for reading my newest Zerg guide. I'm thrilled to present a style popularized by "The Final Boss" himself, DongRaeGu.
Naturally, there is a lot of talk over DRG's recent victory over Alicia (Protoss) in the MLG Spring Championship, but I'd actually like to take a step back to analyze what has become one of the most common and powerful Zerg vs Terran timing attacks - the 8:45-9:30 Roach/Ling/Baneling. There seems to be mixed opinions from casters and players - some have referred to this style as "all-in", others call it an "aggressive opening." Regardless of which side you stand on, we cannot deny that it is an effective style used in tournament play by top-notch Zerg players like Stephano, Sheth, vioLet, and of course, DRG.
Reddit Link:
+ Show Spoiler +
The Basic Concept:
+ Show Spoiler +Click Here to download the replay that the screenshots below are taken from. This is an introductory analysis of the 2 hatchery, 2 gas timing attack which generally arrives at the Terran expansion between 8:40-9:30 with 8-12 roaches, 8-10 banelings, and 20+ zerglings. Since this composition functions well against low-tech units like marines/hellions/marauders, it is generally used in response to Terrans who take a fast expansion without gas. However, the push comes early enough that you can often trade armies against Tank/Banshee builds to equalize the game. There are multiple variations of the build, but they tend to follow this basic structure: 1: Go hatch-first and drone scout.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NlFwx.jpg)
2: Get your first gas, two queens, and a few zerglings to defend/scout again.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/veU7n.jpg)
3: Defend yourself early - optional third queen, spine crawler, additional zerglings.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xVcTl.jpg)
4: Use your first 100 gas on zergling speed and continue droning.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WSc0E.jpg)
5: Get your second gas and roach warren at 44 supply.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/R7Enf.jpg)
6: Produce additional overlords (3-4 are needed for roaches)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yGkZU.jpg)
7: Build 8-12 roaches, a baneling nest, and zerglings.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rZgbX.jpg)
8: When the roaches complete, move out. If possible, run lings ahead to morph earlier/closer to your opponent's base.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CVHZA.jpg)
9: Morph in and gather up.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fhcsA.jpg)
10: Bust then reinforce or transition.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Vh80a.jpg)
DRG's Style
+ Show Spoiler +Click Here to view DRG vs MMA from MLG Providence. As you know, MvP's DongRaeGu was the first professional to utilize this build in competitive tournaments. DRG opts for both a later drone scout (13) and a later gas (23) than most players, which allows him to secure a slight economic lead in the early stages. By building 3-4 sets of lings before the roaches, he's also able to morph in his banelings to bust earlier than most: 9 Roaches, 11 Banelings, 20~ Speedlings arrive at 8:45: The Build Order:9Overlord 13Scout 15Hatch 16Pool 17Overlord 17Queen x 2 (Double Inject) 21Lings x 4 (2 Sets) 23 First gas (4:00) Drones to 26 26 Overlord Drones to 31 31 Overlord Drones to 36 36 Zergling speed (first 100 gas, keep drones harvesting gas) 36 Overlord Drones to 42 42 2nd Gas/Roach Warren Drones to 44 Overlord x 3 Baneling nest when warren is halfway done (6:30) 44 Lings x 6 (Total of 9-12 Speedlings to move out across the map and morph into banelings) 47 Roaches x 9 65+ Lings 11 Banelings morphing by 8:20 The Transition:Start droning Lair and 3rd/4th gases started (9:00) Macro Hatch (10:00) Mix Drone/Ling Production, make sure you have map vision and at least 2-3 banelings if you're building drones. Baneling Speed and Spire when Lair finishes (11:00) Third Base (12:15) Muta Production by 12:30 with +1 Air Attack, deny drops/harass while you mass zerglings/banelings/mutas/upgrades 14:00 double evolution chamber Once you reach a large enough ling/baneling/muta army off 2bases with a macro hatch, start saturating your 3rd (Don't rush this!). Start a 4th by 17Minutes and use your large zergling/baneling/mutalisk army to delay/deny the terran's third. Eventually Infestation pit for infestors and hive tech.
vioLet's Variation:
+ Show Spoiler +Click Here to view vioLet vs Demuslim from IEM São Paulo. Empire's vioLet is known for his aggressive style of timings and counter attacks, so it's no surprise that he incorporates builds like this. vioLet plays the opening "safer" than DRG by drone scouting at 1:15, going gas-before-pool for early zergling speed, and building 3 sets of zerglings as soon as the pool is done. While these precautions do help in the event of early pressure, the reduced economy forces him to build an earlier warren at 39 supply to hit with a smaller push at the same time as DRG's: 9 Roaches, 9 Banelings, 16 Lings arrive at 8:45The Build Order:10Overlord 10-11 Extractor Trick (The drone that built/cancelled extractor moves out to scout at 1:15) 15 Hatchery 16Gas 15Pool 18Overlord 18Queen x 2 22 Lings x 6 (3 Sets) Speed with first 100 gas (Remove 2 from gas until 6:00) 26 Overlord 31 Spine (5:30) 32 Overlord Drones to 36 (Refill gas at 6:00) 36 Overlord 36 Lings x 6 (3 Sets) 39 Roach Warren (6:15) 38 2nd Gas Drones to 41 41 Overlord x 3 41-57 Roaches x 9 / Baneling Nest 57+ Lings 9 Banelings morphing by 8:20 Note: vioLet does not transition and instead follows through with continued zergling/baneling production.
Sheth's Variation:
+ Show Spoiler +Click Here to view Sheth vs PuMa from IPL Liquid vs Evil Geniuses. Kudos to the nicest professional Zerg player out there, LiquidSheth, for showing that well-mannered players can open aggressively too! Although his push arrives about 30-45 seconds later than the others, he is able to create a few more roaches and banelings for a larger push at 9:30. With no attempt to place evolution chambers or a 3rd base, Sheth's timing is the most all-in version of this style: 12 Roaches, 12 Banelings, 28+ Speedlings arrive at 9:309Overlord 13Scout 15Hatchery 16Pool 16Gas (2 in gas) 17Overlord 17 Queen x 2 (Double Inject) 21 Lings x 4 (2Sets) Drones to 28 28 Overlord 28 Spine Drones to 31 31 Speed (First 100 Gas) 31 Overlord (Fill gas 5:30) Drones to 42 42 Supply 2nd gas 41 Supply 2-3 Sets of lings (If pressured by hellions) 42 Roach Warren (6:45) Drones to 44 44 Overlords x 3 44-68 Roaches (Roaches start around 7:45) 68 Overlord 68 Baneling Nest 68 Overlord x 3 68+ Lings Baneling morph at 9:00 Sheth does not transition, instead favours a continued zergling/baneling all-in.
Stephano's Variation:
+ Show Spoiler +Click Here to view Stephano vs PuMa from the Assembly ASUS ROG SemiFinals. Stephano goes for the most macro-oriented build and transition, opting to start an early third queen to spread creep as well as taking a third base at 8:20. Even though he starts such an early third, his roach/zergling/baneling timing hits at a comparable time with other pros: 10 Roaches, 8 Banelings, 24 Zerglings arrive at 9:00The Build Order:9Overlord Early Scout (10 Supply/1Min Mark) 15Hatch 16Pool 18Gas (For early ling speed, take drones out after you start the upgrade) 17Overlord 17Drone 18 Queen x 2, Lings x 4 (2 Sets) Drones to 26 26 Overlord Drones to 28 28 Queen/Overlord (Giving up to 44 supply) Drones to 33 33 Spine (~5:15/5:20) Drones to 36, refill gas 36 2nd Gas Drones to 44 44 Warren, Overlordsx4, Baneling nest (Replace drones to 44 supply) 44 Roaches x 10 (~7:15) 64+ Lings 8:20 3rd Base 8:30 8 Banelings morphing Transition: Early third base by 8:20 Double Evo Chamber by 10:00, back into drones around this time too. Take 3rd/4th gas after +1+1 started LOTS of creep through the center and to the 3rd Lair by about 11:30/12:00 (first 100 gas after +1+1) Infestation pit when Lair is done, Pathogen Glands and Hive immediately Eventual goal of Hive tech with three fully saturated bases and a macro hatch, max-out with fully-upgraded zergling, ultralisks, and infestors.
All-In (Or is it?):
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Do you think this style Roach/Ling/Baneling push is all-in?No, this push transitions well into the mid and late game. (141) 57% Yes, if the attack fails to do significant damage, you're too behind to transition. (107) 43% 248 total votes Your vote: Do you think this style Roach/Ling/Baneling push is all-in? (Vote): Yes, if the attack fails to do significant damage, you're too behind to transition.
(Vote): No, this push transitions well into the mid and late game.
Guide Feedback:
+ Show Spoiler +If you read this guide, I ask that you please provide input about what you like and dislike about it. As always, your constructive comments and criticism are valued and appreciated! Poll: Are you happy with the content, structure, and style of this guide?5 - Excellent guide, relevant and concise information, interesting style. (90) 66% 4 - Solid guide, good analysis, pretty helpful. (24) 18% 1 - There is nothing to be learned from you, Tang. You're ruining eSports. (15) 11% 3 - Average guide, could be improved but probably will help some people. (5) 4% 2 - Some helpful material, overall not very informative. (2) 1% 136 total votes Your vote: Are you happy with the content, structure, and style of this guide? (Vote): 5 - Excellent guide, relevant and concise information, interesting style.
(Vote): 4 - Solid guide, good analysis, pretty helpful.
(Vote): 3 - Average guide, could be improved but probably will help some people.
(Vote): 2 - Some helpful material, overall not very informative.
(Vote): 1 - There is nothing to be learned from you, Tang. You're ruining eSports.
- Tang
Courtesy of www.TangStarcraft.comLast edit: 2012-06-14 08:18:21 |
| | Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC |
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| Mahtasooma Germany. June 12 2012 07:19. Posts 375 | Profile # |
<3 Tang, <3.
Here's VibE's version:
http://www.sixpoolgaming.com/videos/vibe-zvt-allin-strategy/
I like VibE's version because it hits at around 8:25, which can be cruicial if siege is researched.
It's basically along the lines of
blablabla speed, drones till 36
36 Warren, 2nd gas
drone back to 36
36 3 Overlords
8-10 Roaches, THEN Baneling Nest
Overlords, Lings
morph banes
Control groups I use is one for army, one for banes, one for roaches.
Replay pack would help if you can get hands on.Last edit: 2012-06-12 07:26:18 |
| | http://twitch.tv/mahtasooma |
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| HelloSon United States. June 12 2012 07:20. Posts 387 | Profile # |
How does this work against players who don't get a fast third? Do they scout for quick third before committing to this attack?
'tis good guide tho, been lookin for early-mid game pressures against quick 3 CC.Last edit: 2012-06-12 07:21:26 |
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| TangSC Canada. June 12 2012 07:23. Posts 1614 | Profile Blog # |
On June 12 2012 07:19 Mahtasooma wrote:
Replay pack would help if you can get hands on.
Absolutely! I will post additional replays and stream videos as they come in  |
| | Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC |
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| PhoenixVoid Canada. June 12 2012 07:24. Posts 8695 | Profile Blog # |
| Great guide to this strat. Really helps with the timings and idea behind the attack. Can't wait for the next guide! |
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| oOOoOphidian United States. June 12 2012 07:25. Posts 1240 | Profile # |
haha nice thread title...
I would definitely argue this is only all-in if you actually morph all the banelings, make extra rounds of lings, and commit all the units to an attack. You can take a 3rd and tech behind this quite nicely without having to do damage, though most of the time you can kill a lot of army or workers with it. The reactor hellion/cloak banshee build is a soft counter, as are tank openers, but you can definitely still do some damage to them or even kill them on occasion.
I've been using this style and transitioning (often not ever morphing the banelings even unless I scout my opponent playing too greedy) for a lot of my ZvTs over the past few seasons, along with fast 3 hatch builds. Both openers have their advantages and I don't feel the roach/baneling build is gimmicky, it just requires good decision making.
The main thing you are vulnerable to if the attack doesn't do much damage would be drop play (especially in multiple prongs if you took a 3rd), so prepare for that.
I can provide some replays of the style if it would help, though there are a lot already out there from pros. ZENEX_Line had a great variety of ways to do this build that are worth looking at as well. In particular I noticed you didn't talk at all about the roach/baneling builds that delay gas until ~30 supply, then they get 3. DRG has used this style in several MLGs.Last edit: 2012-06-12 07:28:42 |
| | http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian |
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| jaminski England. June 12 2012 07:27. Posts 82 | Profile # |
| i think this build is just dependent on the damage dealt either a good army trade or alot of worker kills with use of the ling / bane i wouldnt call it all in tho as i think even if u 1a u can still deal good damage to transition out of it |
| | [ Macrophobia ] [ EU Protoss ] [ Mid Master ] |
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| syriuszonito Poland. June 12 2012 07:44. Posts 291 | Profile # |
Nice guide, was looking for something like this.
I wouldnt call it an all-in since I think its impossible for terran to defend it without heavy army or econ loss and zerg can easily secure third + drone hard after it, in worst scenario you are slightly behind. |
| | The one || My stream http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/syriuszonito |
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| TangSC Canada. June 12 2012 08:05. Posts 1614 | Profile Blog # |
On June 12 2012 07:27 jaminski wrote:
i think this build is just dependent on the damage dealt either a good army trade or alot of worker kills with use of the ling / bane i wouldnt call it all in tho as i think even if u 1a u can still deal good damage to transition out of it
I agree, although it does require a certain level of micro and multitasking to transition effectively.Last edit: 2012-06-12 08:06:15 |
| | Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC |
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 chaosftw June 12 2012 08:13. Posts 24 | Profile # |
| can you tell me the difference with your other all in (can't find it right now), that was similar to this all in? |
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| TangSC Canada. June 12 2012 08:17. Posts 1614 | Profile Blog # |
On June 12 2012 08:13 chaosftw wrote:
can you tell me the difference with your other all in (can't find it right now), that was similar to this all in?
Do you mean the "Big Bust"? The roach warren goes down at 28 with that build, which makes it harder to transition than DRG's style which gets a 44 warren. However, the push arrives much earlier (8:20) so most tank builds don't finish siege mode.Last edit: 2012-06-12 08:18:33 |
| | Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC |
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| mahi29 United States. June 12 2012 08:33. Posts 235 | Profile # |
| fyi, its "top-notch" not "top-knotch" |
| | The mind is its own place, and in it self Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. |
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| TangSC Canada. June 12 2012 08:35. Posts 1614 | Profile Blog # |
On June 12 2012 08:33 mahi29 wrote:
fyi, its "top-notch" not "top-knotch"
Updated, thanks - I hate typeos  |
| | Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC |
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| calvinL Canada. June 12 2012 08:42. Posts 405 | Profile # |
My favourite variation is a recent build I saw Stephano doing at Redbull LAN, he hits as fast as your original "Big Bust" guide and has a healthy econ to back it up so transitions easier.
He puts down a 42 warren, puts down a 3rd at 8:00, and attacks at 8:20 with 8 roaches/9 banelings/16 zerglings. Much less zerglings but hits really fast and transitions really well. Last edit: 2012-06-12 08:42:47 |
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| oOOoOphidian United States. June 12 2012 08:44. Posts 1240 | Profile # |
On June 12 2012 08:42 calvinL wrote:
My favourite variation is a recent build I saw Stephano doing at Redbull LAN, he hits as fast as your original "Big Bust" guide and has a healthy econ to back it up so transitions easier.
He puts down a 42 warren, puts down a 3rd at 8:00, and attacks at 8:20 with 8 roaches/9 banelings/16 zerglings. Much less zerglings but hits really fast and transitions really well.
Could you find a vod of that? I would like to try it. |
| | http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian |
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| calvinL Canada. June 12 2012 08:57. Posts 405 | Profile # |
http://blip.tv/day9tv/illusion-t-vs-stephano-z-g2-red-bull-battlegrounds-austin-group-a-day-1-6168941
The rep is somewhere out there. Sure it doesn't work out perfectly here since Illusion didn't go for fast 3rd CC, as well as Stephano overdroning after the attack. However, I tried it myself and really liked it as it transitions pretty well if you can recognize when the push doesn't work and pull back, as well as outright killing the Terran if he went for a very greedy style. Last edit: 2012-06-12 09:02:41 |
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| Lobotomist United States. June 12 2012 09:01. Posts 1230 | Profile # |
| Jesus, what a well formatted guide. links to the VODs and breaking down by player/variation is great. it would be sick if you'd theory craft on when this build gets done. is it blind, or a response? what builds does it fair well against, what builds does it fail against? are there any scout timings (where the terran scouts you) that you'd consider abandoning the build? how important is siege timing, and how does one make such a read? Last edit: 2012-06-12 09:06:17 |
| | Teching to hive too quickly isn't just a risk: it's an ultrarisk |
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| TangSC Canada. June 12 2012 09:31. Posts 1614 | Profile Blog # |
On June 12 2012 09:01 Lobotomist wrote:
Jesus, what a well formatted guide. links to the VODs and breaking down by player/variation is great. it would be sick if you'd theory craft on when this build gets done. is it blind, or a response? what builds does it fair well against, what builds does it fail against? are there any scout timings (where the terran scouts you) that you'd consider abandoning the build? how important is siege timing, and how does one make such a read?
Thanks Lobotomist!
And those are all good questions. At the top level, this style of Roach/Ling/Baneling is generally a response to 1Rax gas-less FE and the reason is simple - fast tech banshee/siege tank builds can shut it down better than marines/hellions/medivacs. If your opponent goes 1-rax FE into hellions, it's nearly impossible for them to defend. Basically, a build order loss. At a none-pro level, I think this push is a viable opening against any build and a good way to practice multitasking.
As for scouting, you want to drone scout and then check the front once with zerglings to confirm hellions so you can build a spine. Other than that, there's no real information you need - I think saccing an overlord would actually be a waste considering your push will determine his tech choice (i.e. if he goes banshees, he'll need them to defend which gives you time to transition).
If the terran player gets a 13 gas and goes right into tanks, it's possible to get siege mode in time for this push but even then you can often trade moderately well or consider immediately pulling back and going straight for a third, drones, and +1/+1 like Stephano. |
| | Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC |
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| Walitgon Australia. June 12 2012 09:33. Posts 542 | Profile # |
Finally.
I've been waiting for this guide for months now
Thank you Mr All-In master Tang! |
| | BRB laddering ^_^ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
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| Walitgon Australia. June 12 2012 09:37. Posts 542 | Profile # |
[B]On June 12 2012 08:35 TangSC wrote: Updated, thanks - I hate typeos
I truly hope this is intended to be irony! |
| | BRB laddering ^_^ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
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