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[G] DRG's Roach/Ling/Bane "All-in" (Or is it?)

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 All
 
 TangSC   Canada. June 12 2012 07:17. Posts 1614
Profile Blog # 
[G] DRG's Roach/Ling/Bane "All-in" (Or is it?)

[image loading]

Good day ladies and gentlemen of Team Liquid, I'd like to thank you all for reading my newest Zerg guide. I'm thrilled to present a style popularized by "The Final Boss" himself, DongRaeGu.

Naturally, there is a lot of talk over DRG's recent victory over Alicia (Protoss) in the MLG Spring Championship, but I'd actually like to take a step back to analyze what has become one of the most common and powerful Zerg vs Terran timing attacks - the 8:45-9:30 Roach/Ling/Baneling. There seems to be mixed opinions from casters and players - some have referred to this style as "all-in", others call it an "aggressive opening." Regardless of which side you stand on, we cannot deny that it is an effective style used in tournament play by top-notch Zerg players like Stephano, Sheth, vioLet, and of course, DRG.

Reddit Link:

+ Show Spoiler +

The Basic Concept:

+ Show Spoiler +

DRG's Style

+ Show Spoiler +

vioLet's Variation:

+ Show Spoiler +

Sheth's Variation:

+ Show Spoiler +

Stephano's Variation:

+ Show Spoiler +

All-In (Or is it?):

+ Show Spoiler +

Guide Feedback:

+ Show Spoiler +

- Tang

Courtesy of www.TangStarcraft.com
Last edit: 2012-06-14 08:18:21
Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC
Old Post

 
 Mahtasooma   Germany. June 12 2012 07:19. Posts 375
Profile # 
<3 Tang, <3.

Here's VibE's version:

http://www.sixpoolgaming.com/videos/vibe-zvt-allin-strategy/

I like VibE's version because it hits at around 8:25, which can be cruicial if siege is researched.

It's basically along the lines of

blablabla speed, drones till 36
36 Warren, 2nd gas
drone back to 36
36 3 Overlords
8-10 Roaches, THEN Baneling Nest
Overlords, Lings
morph banes

Control groups I use is one for army, one for banes, one for roaches.


Replay pack would help if you can get hands on.
Last edit: 2012-06-12 07:26:18
http://twitch.tv/mahtasooma
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 HelloSon   United States. June 12 2012 07:20. Posts 387
Profile # 
How does this work against players who don't get a fast third? Do they scout for quick third before committing to this attack?

'tis good guide tho, been lookin for early-mid game pressures against quick 3 CC.
Last edit: 2012-06-12 07:21:26
yo
Old Post

 
 TangSC   Canada. June 12 2012 07:23. Posts 1614
Profile Blog # 

On June 12 2012 07:19 Mahtasooma wrote:
Replay pack would help if you can get hands on.

Absolutely! I will post additional replays and stream videos as they come in
Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC
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 PhoenixVoid   Canada. June 12 2012 07:24. Posts 8695
Profile Blog # 
Great guide to this strat. Really helps with the timings and idea behind the attack. Can't wait for the next guide!
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 oOOoOphidian   United States. June 12 2012 07:25. Posts 1240
Profile # 
haha nice thread title...

I would definitely argue this is only all-in if you actually morph all the banelings, make extra rounds of lings, and commit all the units to an attack. You can take a 3rd and tech behind this quite nicely without having to do damage, though most of the time you can kill a lot of army or workers with it. The reactor hellion/cloak banshee build is a soft counter, as are tank openers, but you can definitely still do some damage to them or even kill them on occasion.

I've been using this style and transitioning (often not ever morphing the banelings even unless I scout my opponent playing too greedy) for a lot of my ZvTs over the past few seasons, along with fast 3 hatch builds. Both openers have their advantages and I don't feel the roach/baneling build is gimmicky, it just requires good decision making.

The main thing you are vulnerable to if the attack doesn't do much damage would be drop play (especially in multiple prongs if you took a 3rd), so prepare for that.

I can provide some replays of the style if it would help, though there are a lot already out there from pros. ZENEX_Line had a great variety of ways to do this build that are worth looking at as well. In particular I noticed you didn't talk at all about the roach/baneling builds that delay gas until ~30 supply, then they get 3. DRG has used this style in several MLGs.
Last edit: 2012-06-12 07:28:42
http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian
Old Post

 
 jaminski   England. June 12 2012 07:27. Posts 82
Profile # 
i think this build is just dependent on the damage dealt either a good army trade or alot of worker kills with use of the ling / bane i wouldnt call it all in tho as i think even if u 1a u can still deal good damage to transition out of it
[ Macrophobia ] [ EU Protoss ] [ Mid Master ]
Old Post

 
 syriuszonito   Poland. June 12 2012 07:44. Posts 291
Profile # 
Nice guide, was looking for something like this.

I wouldnt call it an all-in since I think its impossible for terran to defend it without heavy army or econ loss and zerg can easily secure third + drone hard after it, in worst scenario you are slightly behind.
The one || My stream http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/syriuszonito
Old Post

 
 TangSC   Canada. June 12 2012 08:05. Posts 1614
Profile Blog # 

On June 12 2012 07:27 jaminski wrote:
i think this build is just dependent on the damage dealt either a good army trade or alot of worker kills with use of the ling / bane i wouldnt call it all in tho as i think even if u 1a u can still deal good damage to transition out of it

I agree, although it does require a certain level of micro and multitasking to transition effectively.
Last edit: 2012-06-12 08:06:15
Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC
Old Post

  chaosftw   June 12 2012 08:13. Posts 24Profile # 
can you tell me the difference with your other all in (can't find it right now), that was similar to this all in?
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 TangSC   Canada. June 12 2012 08:17. Posts 1614
Profile Blog # 

On June 12 2012 08:13 chaosftw wrote:
can you tell me the difference with your other all in (can't find it right now), that was similar to this all in?

Do you mean the "Big Bust"? The roach warren goes down at 28 with that build, which makes it harder to transition than DRG's style which gets a 44 warren. However, the push arrives much earlier (8:20) so most tank builds don't finish siege mode.
Last edit: 2012-06-12 08:18:33
Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC
Old Post

 
 mahi29   United States. June 12 2012 08:33. Posts 235
Profile # 
fyi, its "top-notch" not "top-knotch"
The mind is its own place, and in it self Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
Old Post

 
 TangSC   Canada. June 12 2012 08:35. Posts 1614
Profile Blog # 

On June 12 2012 08:33 mahi29 wrote:
fyi, its "top-notch" not "top-knotch"

Updated, thanks - I hate typeos
Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC
Old Post

 
 calvinL   Canada. June 12 2012 08:42. Posts 405
Profile # 
My favourite variation is a recent build I saw Stephano doing at Redbull LAN, he hits as fast as your original "Big Bust" guide and has a healthy econ to back it up so transitions easier.

He puts down a 42 warren, puts down a 3rd at 8:00, and attacks at 8:20 with 8 roaches/9 banelings/16 zerglings. Much less zerglings but hits really fast and transitions really well.
Last edit: 2012-06-12 08:42:47
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 oOOoOphidian   United States. June 12 2012 08:44. Posts 1240
Profile # 

On June 12 2012 08:42 calvinL wrote:
My favourite variation is a recent build I saw Stephano doing at Redbull LAN, he hits as fast as your original "Big Bust" guide and has a healthy econ to back it up so transitions easier.

He puts down a 42 warren, puts down a 3rd at 8:00, and attacks at 8:20 with 8 roaches/9 banelings/16 zerglings. Much less zerglings but hits really fast and transitions really well.

Could you find a vod of that? I would like to try it.
http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian
Old Post

 
 calvinL   Canada. June 12 2012 08:57. Posts 405
Profile # 
http://blip.tv/day9tv/illusion-t-vs-stephano-z-g2-red-bull-battlegrounds-austin-group-a-day-1-6168941

The rep is somewhere out there. Sure it doesn't work out perfectly here since Illusion didn't go for fast 3rd CC, as well as Stephano overdroning after the attack. However, I tried it myself and really liked it as it transitions pretty well if you can recognize when the push doesn't work and pull back, as well as outright killing the Terran if he went for a very greedy style.
Last edit: 2012-06-12 09:02:41
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 Lobotomist   United States. June 12 2012 09:01. Posts 1230
Profile # 
Jesus, what a well formatted guide. links to the VODs and breaking down by player/variation is great. it would be sick if you'd theory craft on when this build gets done. is it blind, or a response? what builds does it fair well against, what builds does it fail against? are there any scout timings (where the terran scouts you) that you'd consider abandoning the build? how important is siege timing, and how does one make such a read?
Last edit: 2012-06-12 09:06:17
Teching to hive too quickly isn't just a risk: it's an ultrarisk
Old Post

 
 TangSC   Canada. June 12 2012 09:31. Posts 1614
Profile Blog # 

On June 12 2012 09:01 Lobotomist wrote:
Jesus, what a well formatted guide. links to the VODs and breaking down by player/variation is great. it would be sick if you'd theory craft on when this build gets done. is it blind, or a response? what builds does it fair well against, what builds does it fail against? are there any scout timings (where the terran scouts you) that you'd consider abandoning the build? how important is siege timing, and how does one make such a read?

Thanks Lobotomist!

And those are all good questions. At the top level, this style of Roach/Ling/Baneling is generally a response to 1Rax gas-less FE and the reason is simple - fast tech banshee/siege tank builds can shut it down better than marines/hellions/medivacs. If your opponent goes 1-rax FE into hellions, it's nearly impossible for them to defend. Basically, a build order loss. At a none-pro level, I think this push is a viable opening against any build and a good way to practice multitasking.

As for scouting, you want to drone scout and then check the front once with zerglings to confirm hellions so you can build a spine. Other than that, there's no real information you need - I think saccing an overlord would actually be a waste considering your push will determine his tech choice (i.e. if he goes banshees, he'll need them to defend which gives you time to transition).

If the terran player gets a 13 gas and goes right into tanks, it's possible to get siege mode in time for this push but even then you can often trade moderately well or consider immediately pulling back and going straight for a third, drones, and +1/+1 like Stephano.
Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC
Old Post

 
 Walitgon   Australia. June 12 2012 09:33. Posts 542
Profile # 
Finally.

I've been waiting for this guide for months now

Thank you Mr All-In master Tang!
BRB laddering ^_^ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Old Post

 
 Walitgon   Australia. June 12 2012 09:37. Posts 542
Profile # 

[B]On June 12 2012 08:35 TangSC wrote:
Updated, thanks - I hate typeos


I truly hope this is intended to be irony!
BRB laddering ^_^ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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