Website Feedback
Closed Threads
IRC Chat
irc.quakenet.org #teamliquid
IRC Web ClientTeamSpeak 3 (61 users) | |
|
| Skyro United States. June 14 2012 01:56. Posts 1414 | Profile # |
On June 14 2012 01:30 HardlyNever wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 23:27 Xpace wrote:
On June 13 2012 23:03 alQahira wrote:
Well, to be fair Xspace, inflation hurts everybody, since as prices rise, it takes longer hours of legitimate play to farm decent things. So in a sense, botters are costing the rest of the players billions of gold over the lifetime of the game.
I can understand where this argument is from, but from a gamer's perspective; Right now there's a huge disparity between people who are not in Inferno, and people who are. And even on Inferno, there's a huge disparity to those still sticking to Butcher, to those clawing their way through Act 2, to those endlessly farming Siegebreaker/Azmodan, to the ones farming Diablo; on top of the Whimsyshire runs. If you're in Inferno, you're getting sell-able loot. And in a coming patch, higher chances for maximum tier loot. When people have tons of Gold, they sell it for real-money, or they spend it on gear (which could the piece you're selling). Since there's a ton of gold floating around, prices go up. So the piece you're selling is worth double what it was. On the other hand, if they sell it for real-money, the gold is going into the hands of a person who again will be spending it on items. The people who are just stepping into Act 1 Inferno these days are coming in with 800 dps weapons, because they're so cheap, because there's more and more geared players farming Inferno, and the loot quality on the AH increases. I entered Inferno with a weapon half that DPS -.- Nobody loses..
What you are saying... doesn't make a lot of sense. You are saying they are "worth more" but don't seem to understand inflation at all. More gold in the economy = each piece of gold is worth less. Really what you said is basically nothing, and wasn't even really relevant to what alQahira even said. Regardless, I am wondering how the game-limit change has affected your botting (has it slowed it down, required more micro-management from you, nothing at all?) Second, you need to consider that botting is a double-edged sword. An economy can only hold together within a certain inflation rate. If TOO many people bot, the economy will just implode, and the game will either a) move to a different type of economy (items, real money, etc., making gold-farming next to worthless) or b) the game itself will simply collapse and you'll have to move on to bot something else. Botters ruin games. Period. Just look at D2. It is always a question of how much money they can get it out of it before the game is ruined. The "legit" players always lose, to some degree or another.
I believe you the term you are looking for is hyperinflation. |
|
|
| gingerfluffmuff Austria. June 14 2012 02:12. Posts 593 | Profile # |
| @XSpace: How much money did u generate since the RMAH openeing? My guess is like 1-2 xxx$. With all the nice OPness of the Dh/Wiz in the first days and the willingness of people to spend money, i really start to regret my d3 boycott :D. |
|
|
| HardlyNever United States. June 14 2012 02:20. Posts 890 | Profile Blog # |
On June 14 2012 01:56 Skyro wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 01:30 HardlyNever wrote:
On June 13 2012 23:27 Xpace wrote:
On June 13 2012 23:03 alQahira wrote:
Well, to be fair Xspace, inflation hurts everybody, since as prices rise, it takes longer hours of legitimate play to farm decent things. So in a sense, botters are costing the rest of the players billions of gold over the lifetime of the game.
I can understand where this argument is from, but from a gamer's perspective; Right now there's a huge disparity between people who are not in Inferno, and people who are. And even on Inferno, there's a huge disparity to those still sticking to Butcher, to those clawing their way through Act 2, to those endlessly farming Siegebreaker/Azmodan, to the ones farming Diablo; on top of the Whimsyshire runs. If you're in Inferno, you're getting sell-able loot. And in a coming patch, higher chances for maximum tier loot. When people have tons of Gold, they sell it for real-money, or they spend it on gear (which could the piece you're selling). Since there's a ton of gold floating around, prices go up. So the piece you're selling is worth double what it was. On the other hand, if they sell it for real-money, the gold is going into the hands of a person who again will be spending it on items. The people who are just stepping into Act 1 Inferno these days are coming in with 800 dps weapons, because they're so cheap, because there's more and more geared players farming Inferno, and the loot quality on the AH increases. I entered Inferno with a weapon half that DPS -.- Nobody loses..
What you are saying... doesn't make a lot of sense. You are saying they are "worth more" but don't seem to understand inflation at all. More gold in the economy = each piece of gold is worth less. Really what you said is basically nothing, and wasn't even really relevant to what alQahira even said. Regardless, I am wondering how the game-limit change has affected your botting (has it slowed it down, required more micro-management from you, nothing at all?) Second, you need to consider that botting is a double-edged sword. An economy can only hold together within a certain inflation rate. If TOO many people bot, the economy will just implode, and the game will either a) move to a different type of economy (items, real money, etc., making gold-farming next to worthless) or b) the game itself will simply collapse and you'll have to move on to bot something else. Botters ruin games. Period. Just look at D2. It is always a question of how much money they can get it out of it before the game is ruined. The "legit" players always lose, to some degree or another.
I believe you the term you are looking for is hyperinflation.
I'm aware of the term, but I don't know if he would be, thus using it would be meaningless.
|
|
|
| FallDownMarigold United States. June 14 2012 03:15. Posts 3192 | Profile Blog # |
K I mentioned this half-jokingly somewhere else, but why don't game companies hire someone like R1CH to work round the clock on preventing not only existing/obvious hacks/bots/scripts/whatever, but also going above and beyond and researching on the fore front what could be coming next -- and then preemptively stopping it. If you know anything about R1CH here at TL you understand he is ridiculously beast at this sort of thing. Wouldn't it be really valuable for a company to employ someone or - maybe 10 people - like R1CH doing something like I described, or is my lack of knowledge just asking for something that can't be done?
TL;dr I don't see why all instances of botting and all that shit can't be stopped cleanly. Does it cost too much? What's the reasonLast edit: 2012-06-14 03:16:10 |
| | "You are the thesis of why we can't have responsible gun control in america." lol |
|
|
| Xpace United States. June 14 2012 03:29. Posts 2037 | Profile # |
On June 14 2012 02:12 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
@XSpace: How much money did u generate since the RMAH openeing? My guess is like 1-2 xxx$. With all the nice OPness of the Dh/Wiz in the first days and the willingness of people to spend money, i really start to regret my d3 boycott :D.
Come back and play!
Last edit: 2012-06-14 04:02:27 |
|
|
| Xpace United States. June 14 2012 03:52. Posts 2037 | Profile # |
On June 14 2012 02:20 HardlyNever wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 01:56 Skyro wrote:
On June 14 2012 01:30 HardlyNever wrote:
On June 13 2012 23:27 Xpace wrote:
On June 13 2012 23:03 alQahira wrote:
Well, to be fair Xspace, inflation hurts everybody, since as prices rise, it takes longer hours of legitimate play to farm decent things. So in a sense, botters are costing the rest of the players billions of gold over the lifetime of the game.
I can understand where this argument is from, but from a gamer's perspective; Right now there's a huge disparity between people who are not in Inferno, and people who are. And even on Inferno, there's a huge disparity to those still sticking to Butcher, to those clawing their way through Act 2, to those endlessly farming Siegebreaker/Azmodan, to the ones farming Diablo; on top of the Whimsyshire runs. If you're in Inferno, you're getting sell-able loot. And in a coming patch, higher chances for maximum tier loot. When people have tons of Gold, they sell it for real-money, or they spend it on gear (which could the piece you're selling). Since there's a ton of gold floating around, prices go up. So the piece you're selling is worth double what it was. On the other hand, if they sell it for real-money, the gold is going into the hands of a person who again will be spending it on items. The people who are just stepping into Act 1 Inferno these days are coming in with 800 dps weapons, because they're so cheap, because there's more and more geared players farming Inferno, and the loot quality on the AH increases. I entered Inferno with a weapon half that DPS -.- Nobody loses..
What you are saying... doesn't make a lot of sense. You are saying they are "worth more" but don't seem to understand inflation at all. More gold in the economy = each piece of gold is worth less. Really what you said is basically nothing, and wasn't even really relevant to what alQahira even said. Regardless, I am wondering how the game-limit change has affected your botting (has it slowed it down, required more micro-management from you, nothing at all?) Second, you need to consider that botting is a double-edged sword. An economy can only hold together within a certain inflation rate. If TOO many people bot, the economy will just implode, and the game will either a) move to a different type of economy (items, real money, etc., making gold-farming next to worthless) or b) the game itself will simply collapse and you'll have to move on to bot something else. Botters ruin games. Period. Just look at D2. It is always a question of how much money they can get it out of it before the game is ruined. The "legit" players always lose, to some degree or another.
I believe you the term you are looking for is hyperinflation.
I'm aware of the term, but I don't know if he would be, thus using it would be meaningless.
Did I hit a nerve, or something? I haven't even replied to what you wrote, chill out.
I was explaining the situation purely from a gameplay perspective. Regardless of the value of gold to money or money to gold, players will always be selling, and players will always be buying.
a) There's no doubt in my mind. You're absolutely right. Just in the past 12 hours, the value of gold has dipped ridiculously. Yesterday, gold prices were around $15/m. Today they were $10/m, and some sites in Russian/Spanish were going as low as $8/m. Hardcore AH didn't see a change. RMAH made people buy, buy, buy.
b) Gold will collapse, and real-money takes over. That was quite obvious a long time ago, which is why everyone I know is rushing RMAH.
c) Duping, bugged items, and all that shit ruined D2. I botted in D2, and the income was nowhere close to duping. SOJs, Occy rings, 08 bugged gear, 300% Cruels, Zod/Chams.Last edit: 2012-06-14 03:55:52 |
|
|
| dmfg United Kingdom. June 14 2012 06:20. Posts 566 | Profile # |
On June 14 2012 03:15 FallDownMarigold wrote:
K I mentioned this half-jokingly somewhere else, but why don't game companies hire someone like R1CH to work round the clock on preventing not only existing/obvious hacks/bots/scripts/whatever, but also going above and beyond and researching on the fore front what could be coming next -- and then preemptively stopping it. If you know anything about R1CH here at TL you understand he is ridiculously beast at this sort of thing. Wouldn't it be really valuable for a company to employ someone or - maybe 10 people - like R1CH doing something like I described, or is my lack of knowledge just asking for something that can't be done?
TL;dr I don't see why all instances of botting and all that shit can't be stopped cleanly. Does it cost too much? What's the reason
Blizz do have a team of people responsible for this, and they're the people who code Warden.
The problem is that for every person Blizz employs to counter hacking, there are dozens more equally talented people working against them to find new exploits and new vulnerabilities. Not just that, but some of the low tech scripts are pretty hard to uncover, even for the professionals.
Maybe you can prevent direct memory injections into D3, but it's harder to police scripts that simulate mouse/keyboard inputs. Even if you can detect those, how do you detect scripts that send in actual mouse/keyboard inputs to the OS? What about a little lego robot that physically presses the keys on a keyboard just as a human would?
There's an arms race, and "beating" the most determined and capable hackers isn't a possibility. What is a possibility is catching and banning enough people who use their hacks, that the majority of people think "this isn't worth the risk - I won't bother". |
|
|
| HardlyNever United States. June 14 2012 09:20. Posts 890 | Profile Blog # |
On June 14 2012 03:52 Xpace wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 02:20 HardlyNever wrote:
On June 14 2012 01:56 Skyro wrote:
On June 14 2012 01:30 HardlyNever wrote:
On June 13 2012 23:27 Xpace wrote:
On June 13 2012 23:03 alQahira wrote:
Well, to be fair Xspace, inflation hurts everybody, since as prices rise, it takes longer hours of legitimate play to farm decent things. So in a sense, botters are costing the rest of the players billions of gold over the lifetime of the game.
I can understand where this argument is from, but from a gamer's perspective; Right now there's a huge disparity between people who are not in Inferno, and people who are. And even on Inferno, there's a huge disparity to those still sticking to Butcher, to those clawing their way through Act 2, to those endlessly farming Siegebreaker/Azmodan, to the ones farming Diablo; on top of the Whimsyshire runs. If you're in Inferno, you're getting sell-able loot. And in a coming patch, higher chances for maximum tier loot. When people have tons of Gold, they sell it for real-money, or they spend it on gear (which could the piece you're selling). Since there's a ton of gold floating around, prices go up. So the piece you're selling is worth double what it was. On the other hand, if they sell it for real-money, the gold is going into the hands of a person who again will be spending it on items. The people who are just stepping into Act 1 Inferno these days are coming in with 800 dps weapons, because they're so cheap, because there's more and more geared players farming Inferno, and the loot quality on the AH increases. I entered Inferno with a weapon half that DPS -.- Nobody loses..
What you are saying... doesn't make a lot of sense. You are saying they are "worth more" but don't seem to understand inflation at all. More gold in the economy = each piece of gold is worth less. Really what you said is basically nothing, and wasn't even really relevant to what alQahira even said. Regardless, I am wondering how the game-limit change has affected your botting (has it slowed it down, required more micro-management from you, nothing at all?) Second, you need to consider that botting is a double-edged sword. An economy can only hold together within a certain inflation rate. If TOO many people bot, the economy will just implode, and the game will either a) move to a different type of economy (items, real money, etc., making gold-farming next to worthless) or b) the game itself will simply collapse and you'll have to move on to bot something else. Botters ruin games. Period. Just look at D2. It is always a question of how much money they can get it out of it before the game is ruined. The "legit" players always lose, to some degree or another.
I believe you the term you are looking for is hyperinflation.
I'm aware of the term, but I don't know if he would be, thus using it would be meaningless.
Did I hit a nerve, or something? I haven't even replied to what you wrote, chill out. I was explaining the situation purely from a gameplay perspective. Regardless of the value of gold to money or money to gold, players will always be selling, and players will always be buying. a) There's no doubt in my mind. You're absolutely right. Just in the past 12 hours, the value of gold has dipped ridiculously. Yesterday, gold prices were around $15/m. Today they were $10/m, and some sites in Russian/Spanish were going as low as $8/m. Hardcore AH didn't see a change. RMAH made people buy, buy, buy. b) Gold will collapse, and real-money takes over. That was quite obvious a long time ago, which is why everyone I know is rushing RMAH. c) Duping, bugged items, and all that shit ruined D2. I botted in D2, and the income was nowhere close to duping. SOJs, Occy rings, 08 bugged gear, 300% Cruels, Zod/Chams.
You didn't hit a nerve, nor was I trying to be mean. I was simply saying you seemed to be unaware that botting caused inflation, so you might not be familiar with "hyperinflation."
I find it sort of odd that you would expect a good reception, when you doing more or less the equivalent of maphacking in SC2. I guess people care less when they don't directly "lose" from it, even though they are losing long term.
I disagree that it wasn't botting that ruined D2, but there were many things wrong with it, like you said duping was also a big issue. That really isn't that important, though.
As far as the future of gold, it is in sort of in an interesting position. I definitely think it will devalue, but the thing is they made crafting a way to turn gold into items, and it will turn into an item economy (or items tied to a specific real money value). Now, most of the stuff you can craft is trash, and would never be all that valuable, but there are exceptions. For instance, I just found blacksmithing plans for an ilvl62 rare crossbow with 6 random properties. While ilvl62 isn't quite as good as ilvl63, having 6 stats is pretty damn good. The only thing holding me back from going to town and just pumping about a bunch of these is that they cost 175k(ish) to make, plus mats. The mats aren't the problem, it is the gold. Now put in a scenario where I would have "infinity" gold, I would pump out tons of these, and some of the would eventually turn out to be quite valuable. This isn't like D2, were gold is worthless except for repairs and buying pots. You can actually make truly valuable items with it, most people just don't do it yet because they either don't have the plans, or the gold is still better spent on the AH. However after gold has been inflated to such a ridiculous degree, 175k will seem like nothing, and grinding out mats isn't very hard. So gold will always retain some sort of value, because you can make genuinely valuable items with it, even if the chance is low. I'm just using that as an example, though. There are plans to craft ilvl 63 items in the game, just not that many have been dropped yet. Eventually a lot of people will have them, though, and you'll be able to craft gear that is as good if not better than what drops.
I'm still wondering, though, has the game limit affected your botting at all, or is it largely irrelevant?Last edit: 2012-06-14 09:23:48 |
|
|
| Prev 1 2 3 4 All | |
|
|
|
| |
|
Sidebar Settings...
|
Store
