| storkman United States. June 13 2012 02:49. Posts 157 | Profile # |
Intro: Hello everyone it is me Storkman! So are you tired of every TvZ either getting roach/bane busted or them just taking a super quick third because our beloved reactor hellions pretty much can't deny anything? Well here is my simple and sweet solution to both problems! Through this guide ill teach you a new build i've been working on and yes i'm sure that many pro's do something like this but this is my build and my approach to how to use it.
Basic: With this build you go for a fast siege tank to secure your natural to be soon third, with this quick tank you are able to shut down quick zerg pressure hitting after the 8 min mark.
Before you read Build orders the numbers next to the buildings or units is how many you should have not how many you are making!
B.O for Mech transition:
+ Show Spoiler +10 depo(1)
12 rack(1)
15 OC(1)
(Scout with scv that finishes making Barrack)
16 cc(2)
17 depo(2)
19 double refinery(2)
23 OC(2)
23 Factory(1)
24 reactor on rack(1)
24 bunker at natural
29 cc(3)
31 depo(3)
33 tank(1) and siege mode
38 depo(4)
48 depo(5)
Around 40 supply if you don't transfer workers at the start you should reach maximum saturation so rally to natural.
51 Double Armory(2)
51 OC(3)
52 Double gas at natural(4)
53 depo(6)
After second tank switch factory with barracks and start reactor hellions
54 factory(2)
60 depo(7)
62 Plus one attack and armor for vehicles
When factory number 2 finishes make a thor(around 71 supplies)
78 factory(3)
80 factory(4)
81 supply(10 min markish) take third
82 engineering bay(incase of muta)
82 double supply depo(9)
87 depo(10)
89 double refinery at third(6)
96 factory(5)
(should be adding tech-labs on all factory's when they finish so you end up with 4 on tech 1 on reactor)
102 double depo(12)
105 depo(13)
116 Plus two attack and armor for vehicles
When I play mech i normally go up to 4-6 thors max if they are roach(more if muta) then i start tank production. If you follow this build perfectly you should max out at the 15 min mark with 77 scvs, 19 hellions, 5 thors, 15 tanks, and 10 rines and 3-3 just now starting.
B.O for Marine Tank Transition:
+ Show Spoiler +10 depo(1)
12 rack(1)
15 OC(1)
(Scout with scv that finishes making Barrack)
16 cc(2)
17 depo(2)
19 double refinery(2)
23 OC(2)
23 Factory(1)
24 reactor on rack(1)
24 bunker at natural
29 cc(3)
31 depo(3)
33 tank(1) and siege mode
38 depo(4)
48 depo(5)
Around 40 supply if you don't transfer workers at the start you should reach maximum saturation so rally to natural.
51 OC(3)
52 double engineering bay(2)
52 swap rack and factory and begin stim
60 refinery(3)
60 plus one damage and armor for bio
60 depo(6)
63 depo(7)
71 starport(1)
74 depo(8)
74 add 2 racks(3)
80 add another rack(4)
81 another rack(5)
81 depo(9)
84 armory(1)
85 starport on reactor
88 resume tank production(make a techlab on factory)
Add reactors to all barracks when they finish
95 triple depo(12)
96 combat shield
96 start plus 2 attack and armor
101 double supply depo(14)
110 plus one vehicle attack
(Add depos as necessary)
151 add on 3 more racks(8) and one factory(2)(after you have your first 5 barracks with reactors start adding on techlabs)
15 min mark maxed out with 78 scvs, 4 hellions, 8 medivacs, 7 tanks, 68 marines 8 racks 2 factorys 1 starport 3-3 attacks coming and plus 2 vehicles with a 4th under construction
Scouting and defending the roach/bane bust
When i play vrs zerg i normally scout with my scv that has completed my initial barracks. With this scout your first trying to find his base and second scout his gas. Whether you see if he has gas or not this build will still be performed the same except you should have a sense of urgency to get up the proper defence(making a bunker and creating a wall with depos). Also another important factor is tank placement. Ideally you want to have them on the high ground so zergs can't just run up and kill them.
Lately I have been making a wall by my ramp as displayed below:
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
Why do i do my initial wall like this?
A: Less Depos required to wall in my bunker
B: If the zerg tries to run up my ramp he will have to sit there and get killed by my bunker.
C: Its much easier to get my scvs into position to repair it
Why use this build?
For me personally(High masters 1200-1300 points) in 90 percent of my TvZ the zerg will try to bust me so by using this build I can easily clean up their busts and even if i lose some Scvs with the 3 mules and 3 scvs at a time i can easily get my economy back on track
The 2-2 Timing:
This for awhile has been the big thing you always see players trying to hit and by following this build you will hit it spot on and as an added bonus have even more tanks! This timing is very crucial because it allows you to go back onto the map clean up some creep and poke at his fourth while you get a fourth of your own. Why does the 1-0 on the vehicles matter? Well without plus one attack if the zerg got armor upgrades your tanks will no longer be able to one shot zerglings.
Good Maps for this build:
Ohana
Cloud Kingdom
Antiga
Entombed
Condemned
Good maps for mech transition:
Shakuras
Antiga
Cloud Kingdom
Ohana
Q&A:
+ Show Spoiler +Q: Why make hellions after your first two tanks?
A: When you get busted what is their natural follow up? Either another bane bust or a flood of lings and quite frankly hellions are good against both of these. These hellions if they don't bust you also allow you to snipe a few drones if they are playing greedy or just gain back some map control.
If you have any questions you can pm me! More replays to come
Replays:
Bust:
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/%28T%29StorkMan_vs_%28Z%29DGiTSilky/20030
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/%28Z%29SirBonjwa_vs_%28T%29StorkMan/20034
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/%28T%29StorkMan_vs_%28Z%29Spec/20038
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/%28Z%29cGFaent_vs_%28T%29StorkMan/20073
No Bust:
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/%28Z%29ZingerXPn_vs_%28T%29StorkMan/20048
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/%28Z%29Pgbz_vs_%28T%29StorkMan/20031
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=265334
Mech:
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/%28Z%29xOSerenity_vs_%28T%29StorkMan/20072
Fast Bane busts:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=265253#/replay_overview
Games Against people who are good:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=265317
+ Show Spoiler +Lost internet but it shows that if you do go for the macro game you aren't really behind if he takes a fast third Last edit: 2012-06-15 07:29:20 |
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| Blyadischa June 13 2012 03:57. Posts 404 | Profile # |
This build is good against fast pressure from zerg, but what about when the zerg takes a fast third while spreading creep?
By the 2/2 timing zerg can have 60% of the map covered with creep and a 4th base coming up, with enough of an army to defend, leaving you in a tight spot because they'll probably get hive tech soon, or already have it.
Why discount hellions because of the queen buff? Hellions help scout, take map control, can potentially deny a third for a while, and can help against ling/bling all ins if they are properly controlled. |
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| storkman United States. June 13 2012 04:21. Posts 157 | Profile # |
| Did you watch mlg? If you go hellions after you expo your hellions come so late generally they can do nothing. The only time hellions did any damage was when they had banshee support and if your banshees also do no damage you sure are in a rut. With this build it doesnt matter if they bust you or not you still have a fast third and a timing attack to hit at 15 mins. Really if you go delayed hellions they can take a fast third anyways because hellions take 8 years to kill a hatch |
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| storkman United States. June 13 2012 04:22. Posts 157 | Profile # |
| And if your main problem is having the map covered in creep then learn to split better and it won't be such an issue :D |
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| Blyadischa June 13 2012 04:44. Posts 404 | Profile # |
Hellions aren't meant to do damage. They delay creep spread, make sure zerg doesn't have complete map control, scout, help against all ins.
If you think that splitting better is the only solution to creep spread, then your fundamental understanding of the matchup is flawed.
You're presuming that the zerg is going to all in. Any good zerg with good scouting will see what you're doing and absolutely crush you because you don't do anything for at least 13-14 minutes. |
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| badcop United States. June 13 2012 04:44. Posts 169 | Profile # |
| hellions after a gasless expo (including cc first and 3cc variations) can still be used for defense against zerg aggression as well as for scouting. this is why players still get them. Last edit: 2012-06-13 04:47:01 |
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| storkman United States. June 13 2012 04:49. Posts 157 | Profile # |
| Hellions after gas less are okay for defence but most busts now adays are very roach heavy... Hellions don't kill roaches |
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| storkman United States. June 13 2012 04:52. Posts 157 | Profile # |
Last replay he busted me i went for timing and he did cover half the map in creep still win  |
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| U_G_L_Y United States. June 13 2012 05:37. Posts 459 | Profile Blog # |
You should designate the replays as mech or marine tank. I have been really struggling vs Z now that early hellions are useless and Z has no reason NOT to make 4 queens so banshee typically fails hard. I am excited to try this.
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| | I'm older than NesTea and slower than GoOdy |
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| storkman United States. June 13 2012 05:43. Posts 157 | Profile # | |
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| MGcHarger Canada. June 13 2012 05:57. Posts 120 | Profile Blog # |
| This is a really good build, tanks can help you defend vs early game all-ins pretty ez, but you need to have your timings really tight, siege mode comes usually as the zerg is on the front of your base with the roach all in or the 2 base bling ling allin. I usually go for 1 rax gas less expo, make 1 bunker and sometimes go for 3 cc before double gassing or after i double gas. I usually don't stop rine production and sometimes go for like 12 rines of that rax while getting siege mode, because if they go for fast gas , it usually means aggression and you have to put down 2 or 3 bunkers to help defend till siege is done and tank is out. Anyways, this has been my build vs Z since a long time and i always go for mech, when double armoring, YES, the build is greedy and Z can do w,e they want, but a mech army with 3-3 at the 15 to 18 min mark is pretty scary. I have to say that i been having a really good success with it while meching, the key is to scout for the hive tech and spire timing, and to turret down where drops can come. The problem with the hellion opening is that you get destroyed by early all ins, yes, they are good vs lings, but not vs a ton of ling bling. You can go hellion when they don't go for fast gas, but if you see fast gas ,go for siege, is the best choice so far in my opinion. |
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| MGcHarger Canada. June 13 2012 05:59. Posts 120 | Profile Blog # |
| BTW, I can provide you with some mech reps if you want. Master T NA-1k last season. Just in case you need something that looks like your build but going mech. |
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| storkman United States. June 13 2012 06:02. Posts 157 | Profile # |
| I used to mech a ton but i have felt that in the pro scene rine/tank is so much more dominant so there must be a reason for them to go it. You can go double gas after 3 cc but i feel like super fast busts are hard to stop |
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| MGcHarger Canada. June 13 2012 06:06. Posts 120 | Profile Blog # |
| That's why you put down 3 bunkers if you scout the aggression and wall off your natural too. Lots of people try to do that to me, i mostly lose when i try to go for hellions tho or i don't scout properly. With 3 oc is not really that critical losing some scvs, usually i build another OC after the bust lol and literally im always even with the Z eco if they go for fast 3. Yeah, rine tank is pretty good . |
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| gingerfluffmuff Austria. June 13 2012 06:07. Posts 634 | Profile # |
| I dont get it, why everybody tries to name a build after themselves. I am also quite sure i saw bomber do such a build on antiga. His siege mode finished when the zerg units knocked on the door, really nice timing. (cant remember when, gsl or gstl i think) |
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| Capulet Canada. June 13 2012 06:14. Posts 632 | Profile Blog # |
A very similar build was covered in one of Day[9]'s dailies a while ago; it was a build that Bomber used in the past.
If I recall, the idea was to hold off all aggression with tanks and go for a 2-2 doom push.
Personally, I stopped using this build after playing it for a month. The way I see it, this build is just a safe transition into the late game while hitting a timing attack. I think letting a zerg power drones and creep without being threatened will leave a terran in a tough situation despite being armed with a strong 2-2 timing (this is just a stylistic thing, I don't like butting heads with a zerg that has a powered economy). However, if zerg goes for some kind of bane/roach bust, you'll be in a commanding lead afterwards and should win the game rather easily.
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| | "I'm just killing the spiders to save the butterflies... Wanting to save both is a contradiction. What would you rather do? Keep deliberating? The butterfly will be eaten in the meantime." |
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| storkman United States. June 13 2012 07:04. Posts 157 | Profile # |
I dont get it, why everybody tries to name a build after themselves. I am also quite sure i saw bomber do such a build on antiga. His siege mode finished when the zerg units knocked on the door, really nice timing. (cant remember when, gsl or gstl i think)
Why I named this build after myself is:
A) I created this post
B) I made my own build i didn't study one of his replays
C) I stated above that i'm sure that many people already do a version of this build so i just created my own version and posted it for you local team liquideans.
A very similar build was covered in one of Day[9]'s dailies a while ago; it was a build that Bomber used in the past.
If I recall, the idea was to hold off all aggression with tanks and go for a 2-2 doom push.
Personally, I stopped using this build after playing it for a month. The way I see it, this build is just a safe transition into the late game while hitting a timing attack. I think letting a zerg power drones and creep without being threatened will leave a terran in a tough situation despite being armed with a strong 2-2 timing (this is just a stylistic thing, I don't like butting heads with a zerg that has a powered economy). However, if zerg goes for some kind of bane/roach bust, you'll be in a commanding lead afterwards and should win the game rather easily.
I remember this bomber build but I really have no clue what was built and what was done
With the new queen buff i find it rather impossible to stop the creep spread. There really is no opening in the early-mid game in which you can do damage to justify the cost. I've played zergs who will get 6-12 queens(fitzyhere) and if you go for any hellion build you are completely behind. So if you can't deny creep with hellions what do you make? There really is no unit i can see being able to gain enough map control other than banshees to successfully deny creep. Big mid-game/late-game pushes are the only way i can see playing this match up due to the great power of the queens and their 20 range.
And yes if he does try to bust me i win 99% of the time. |
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| BeeNu June 13 2012 07:09. Posts 615 | Profile # |
| This looks like a good solid build. I know when I face Terrans on the ladder and they go for greedy fast 3cc builds without fast Siege I just Roach/Bane/Ling bust em but something like this would definitely be able to survive or deter that kind of build and force a macro game. You would likely give up a lot of early map presence with this build but vs Queen heavy openings that wouldn't matter too much I guess since you trade off with fast 3cc. Last edit: 2012-06-13 07:10:46 |
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| CptCutter United Kingdom. June 13 2012 07:13. Posts 350 | Profile # |
| i prefer getting the 3rd cc before refineries. allows you to go up to 2 rax at the same time with bunks. only problem is that upgrades feel really late and this type of build only works on maps where 3rd is close to nat (antiga shipyard, taldarim etc) |
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| storkman United States. June 13 2012 07:17. Posts 157 | Profile # |
| A good majority of my TvZ games 9 min mark i get that big old roach bane bust and me personally I feel like you have to get 2-3 bunkers to handle it properly or you can get fast tanks and hold it easily i mean it's whatever you prefer but i feel like fast tanks just allows you to play more defensive without having to put money into bunkers and extra barracks before you really need them. |
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