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| Lemonayd United States. June 13 2012 16:30. Posts 631 | Profile Blog # |
What can we do to develop a better national scene?
Starcraft 2 is definitely doing really well internationally, but as far as America is concerned I honestly feel that there is huge opportunity for development of a stronger national scene. While I’m sure most people can name a lot of decent American players, I don’t think you can argue that there are many great (large success winning events) Americans.
To me there doesn’t seem to be enough opportunities for our players to really develop and transition into doing well globally. Very few teams have the financial ability to send their players to different events due to the risk involved which leads a lot of players to a situation where they have to have huge breakout events or you’re out of luck. Streaming your ladder sessions and participating in online daily events doesn’t cut it. We rarely get the opportunity to see players rise up.
Also speaking strictly to American competition, do we just settle for Blizzards WCS and let this once a year tournament decide who the best in the country is? Sure it makes sense to have your so-called “national champion” crowned once a year, but I don’t see any real stories being developed there. I do not feel that this one league that Blizzard is hosting does our country a good enough service to showcase all the potential that is out there.
Unfortunately I don’t have much of any ideas for how to fix this issue or even how to really develop more of an interest of the American scene. Do we need to have more organizers host more strictly national events or what?
I’m curious what everyone has to say, what can we do?
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| AndAgain United States. June 13 2012 16:37. Posts 2486 | Profile # |
The American scene is relatively small because there isn't much demand for watching Americans play. If there was, an enterprising individual or organization would create tournaments for Americans only and make a profit.
The question of why the American scene is relatively lackluster comes down to culture. The lack of financial funding is the result of a lack of popularity, not the cause of it. Last edit: 2012-06-13 16:42:48 |
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| Xyik Canada. June 13 2012 16:41. Posts 606 | Profile Blog # |
| NA is home to many games, SC2 just being one of them. The culture surrounding gaming as being a nerdy sport is definitely a limiting factor. Also, the lack of a significant american star is also making it difficult for new players to break in as the impression is that SC2 is a korean dominated scene, it puts people off on considering SC2 as a serious choice. |
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| SniXSniPe United States. June 13 2012 16:56. Posts 1448 | Profile Blog # |
The problem is that most of the die-hard sc2 loving fanatics in NA firmly believe there is a huge gap between high level NA and a high level Korean and that games between high level NA players cannot possibly be very entertaining/are not worth it to watch. As a result, they feel no desire to watch things based with mostly NA players (albeit there are still a small amount of viewers).
Or something like that.
Last edit: 2012-06-13 16:56:58 |
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| Nizzy United States. June 13 2012 17:02. Posts 838 | Profile Blog # |
The ANSWER:
a league just for NORTH AMERICAN.
I want to know WHO THE BEST NA PLAYER IS PER SEASON. I want to watch the best NA PLAYERS some times only and not another random Korean pro.
We need to have a league for just NA pros and have a good sized prize pool so they can take the winnings and support themselves.
The NASL failed once it Koreans in. Then it failed even harder after I followed it daily, honestly got interested to see who would win, then some random korean at the time (PuMa) won some open tournament that I didn't see won the whole thing. Really killed my interest after that.
A simple league for nothing but NA born/raised players. Why is this so difficult? |
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| DannyJ United States. June 13 2012 17:03. Posts 3744 | Profile # |
| Have to break everyones Xbox. |
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| Newbistic China. June 13 2012 17:04. Posts 2911 | Profile Blog # |
On June 13 2012 17:03 DannyJ wrote: Have to break everyones Xbox.
This guy knows what's up. Also, put on a Guy Fawkes mask and plant explosive barrels underneath the Riot headquarters. |
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Aeroplaneoverthesea United Kingdom. June 13 2012 17:25. Posts 1694 | Profile # |
| There should be an NA only league. Obviously the MLG's, IPL's etc.. should be internationally but I think one NA only league played online would be good for the scene. |
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Aeroplaneoverthesea United Kingdom. June 13 2012 17:26. Posts 1694 | Profile # |
On June 13 2012 17:02 Nizzy wrote: The ANSWER:
a league just for NORTH AMERICAN.
I want to know WHO THE BEST NA PLAYER IS PER SEASON. I want to watch the best NA PLAYERS some times only and not another random Korean pro.
We need to have a league for just NA pros and have a good sized prize pool so they can take the winnings and support themselves.
The NASL failed once it Koreans in. Then it failed even harder after I followed it daily, honestly got interested to see who would win, then some random korean at the time (PuMa) won some open tournament that I didn't see won the whole thing. Really killed my interest after that.
A simple league for nothing but NA born/raised players. Why is this so difficult?
NASL is way to high budget not the have Koreans.
Any NA only tournament would need to be online and low budget. |
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| Passion Netherlands. June 13 2012 17:32. Posts 1265 | Profile # |
| Ask Blizzard to re-introduce nation based chat channels, where everyone lands after logging in. This will allow new communities to spawn, which in turn will create the "scene" you are looking for. Simple! |
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| Gamegene United States. June 13 2012 17:35. Posts 6653 | Profile Blog # |
| one of the bigger problems for NA is the fact that we're a really big country, so our ESPORTS population is fairly spread out across the states. |
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| Irave United States. June 13 2012 17:37. Posts 7910 | Profile # |
The NA scene in general is doing quite well as a whole. Massive events like MLG, IPL, Red Bull, NASL and so forth. Its just that the majority of the scene wants to see the best play. Attempting to exclude Koreans won't make for much profit. As well there are numerous leagues and tournaments that most NA players can jump into.
For example http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340149 is a massive potential golden ticket to jump into the scene. The signup list is disgustingly small. Perhaps it wasn't well advertised but that's prime chance.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=332111 Events like this are great too. I'm more excited for this than DH. Why because the player list is unique and could easily provide a good story.
Scene is fine, plenty of opportunities. Scarlett hype train anyone?Last edit: 2012-06-13 17:39:04 |
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| SniXSniPe United States. June 13 2012 18:08. Posts 1448 | Profile Blog # |
On June 13 2012 17:37 Irave wrote:The NA scene in general is doing quite well as a whole. Massive events like MLG, IPL, Red Bull, NASL and so forth. Its just that the majority of the scene wants to see the best play. Attempting to exclude Koreans won't make for much profit. As well there are numerous leagues and tournaments that most NA players can jump into. For example http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340149 is a massive potential golden ticket to jump into the scene. The signup list is disgustingly small. Perhaps it wasn't well advertised but that's prime chance. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=332111 Events like this are great too. I'm more excited for this than DH. Why because the player list is unique and could easily provide a good story. Scene is fine, plenty of opportunities. Scarlett hype train anyone?
The signup is small--- want to know why?
It's because a the majority of players can't make 5 nights in a row to show up to an event, due to reasons such as school/work.
Tournament organizers really drop the ball when they do tournaments like that, especially when they are 5 consecutive days.
Tournaments like these really do not provide a large opportunity contrary to belief.
Also... signup fee.Last edit: 2012-06-13 18:10:06 |
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| iaguz Australia. June 13 2012 18:16. Posts 1251 | Profile Blog # |
On June 13 2012 16:56 SniXSniPe wrote: The problem is that most of the die-hard sc2 loving fanatics in NA firmly believe there is a huge gap between high level NA and a high level Korean and that games between high level NA players cannot possibly be very entertaining/are not worth it to watch. As a result, they feel no desire to watch things based with mostly NA players (albeit there are still a small amount of viewers).
Or something like that.
Exactly this.
You can keep what you have now which is a scene with the best players in it (ie, mostly koreans, some euros and bugger all USA players) or you can make an agreement between all the NA tournaments to simply not have koreans in them, or a significantly reduced number, and promote a more local scene, and hopefully one that encourages and develops stronger players.
Or NA can just deal with it and learn to be better at Starcraft through sheer determination
Those are the options. And as long as the most popular and financially viable option remains having koreans then that is what will happen.Last edit: 2012-06-13 18:17:42 |
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| decerto June 13 2012 18:23. Posts 242 | Profile # |
Do what you did with science in the 20th century, offer better deals to europeans and asians to live in your country, then 2nd and 3rd generation gamers who are natively americans will have the best teachers and america will become a central hub.
edit* a world war and an atomic bomb would help speed this along Last edit: 2012-06-13 18:24:40 |
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| zezamer Finland. June 13 2012 18:29. Posts 1805 | Profile # |
| There could be also small size NA tournament where winner would get a wild card to MLG pool play or something like that. |
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| decaf Austria. June 13 2012 18:30. Posts 1701 | Profile # |
It's the very same problem America got with any other kind of sport. In Europe there's a lot of different countries and every country has their pride and wants to be better than another country, so we all compete to show 'em who's the best at something, for instance football (soccer). But in America I don't think there's that kind of competition going on, since the USA is more or less one big country and you don't really care what state someone comes from, a win is a win for America, right?
So you're not exposed to as much competition as Europeans are. If you don't face competition there's no reason to get better. Now it's obvious Americans want to be goot as something, too, so the pick sports only they care about (like baseball or American football) and largely ignore others like real football, because they won't ever be able to keep up with the European competition. While I don't necessarily think Americans are lazy I do feel they have no real incentive to play.
All american players are (arguably) really bad compared to the tip top players, no one actually cares about them and if they do show up it's due to their behavior most of the time. So the only way to make Starcraft II (something with a similar competing dynamic like football (soccer), because it's global) attractive or interesting to the average American is to have a domestic league so you can give them something to cheer on and be proud of. It's a no brainer that this league would be a farce though, because it's obvious that the winner of such a league is no more than a scrub.
Now the next reason why America is so far behind in terms of skill (first reason was there's no real competition, because it can't keep up with Europe and its states don't really compete with each other) is a cultural thing. Obviously koreans are the best at starcraft II, they have played it more seriously on a larger scale and for a longer time than any other country. Americans prefer console games like halo and if they wanted to ever catch up with koreans they'd have to accept first that they suck and never will be good (looking at this thread I don't think that'll happen) and then practice their asses off and get sponsors, a practice environment, everything needed. Now the problem is who sponsors something you're obviously much worse at than almost anyone else?
The solution is to accept that you're not the best at everything (and probably anything) and choose a different game. You can also cheer for players and not for countries like I do. I've already accepted that I'm never going to see a good Austrian player ever entering the scene and quite frankly, I don't care.Last edit: 2012-06-13 18:34:20 |
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| CaptainAmerica United States. June 13 2012 18:32. Posts 89 | Profile Blog # |
i don't think cutting "foreigners" out of the tournament scene will solve anything. if anything it might hurt as it would drive the best non-american players in the world away from american markets.
how do you grow anything? good, old fashioned hard work. each of us needs to be an ambassador for the sport and start spreading it. you don't have to get a bible out and start preaching or go door to door, but spread the word. every year, as new generations replace the old, a higher percentage of people will have had exposure to video games and so be more inclined to believe that they aren't just "a waste of time." something easy is help a weaker play grow into a better player or tell someone about it who has never heard of SC2 or eSports.
more than that though, money...we live in a capitalist economy with greed everywhere. people need to see others making a good living at eSports to believe that it's a viable market. it's so new and it is scorned by some that we need to draw money into it to prove that the eSports scene is sustainable and, more than that, prosperous. i don't agree with that line of thought personally, but i do believe it is how most americans (and maybe people in general) think..."greed is good."
it's going to take more pioneers who do more than just play the game as well. Sure we need good players...I'm not gonna name them because there actually are a lot out there, but the future of eSports will be paved by businessmen. Guys like Sundance, whoever runs IPL (sorry I should know this...), and the team owners. eSports is like a snow ball rolling down a hill that grows into something bigger and bigger until finally it's so fucking big that it runs over anything in it's path. these guys bring in money and attention and more money.
really this is a complex topic and to put it all into one post would be impossible. what i've said is just a start and not as specific as i would like. growing happens on the inside as we grow our existing community and on the outside as we bring in new blood. it's as simple as telling people and as hard as organizing a tourney with 5 figure prizes. what can you do? it depends on what you're good at...a good player can teach worse players as i said and make the NA ladder more competitive, a caster is the face of the sport and really a lot like an ambassador both helping current players and reaching out to new ones, and the businessmen are bringing in more money to feed the rest (and themselves). hell, being a fan who pays for things and watches ads is helping to grow the scene...support americans with your dollars, watch american streams, buy team apparel from teams that have americans. it'll happen, we're the sleeping giant just starting to wake up and when we do...it's gonna be glorious.
also, eat more fish... |
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| Notfragile Greece. June 13 2012 18:37. Posts 600 | Profile # |
On June 13 2012 18:30 decaf wrote: It's the very same problem America got with any other kind of sport. In Europe there's a lot of different countries and every country has their pride and wants to be better than another country, so we all compete to show 'em who's the best at something, for instance football (soccer). But in America I don't think there's that kind of competition going on, since the USA is more or less one big country and you don't really care what state someone comes from, a win is a win for America, right?
So you're not exposed to as much competition as Europeans are. If you don't face competition there's no reason to get better. Now it's obvious Americans want to be goot as something, too, so the pick sports only they care about (like baseball or American football) and largely ignore others like real football, because they won't ever be able to keep up with the European competition. While I don't necessarily think Americans are lazy I do feel they have no real incentive to play.
All american players are (arguably) really bad compared to the tip top players, no one actually cares about them and if they do show up it's due to their behavior most of the time. So the only way to make Starcraft II (something with a similar competing dynamic like football (soccer), because it's global) attractive or interesting to the average American is to have a domestic league so you can give them something to cheer on and be proud of. It's a no brainer that this league would be a farce though, because it's obvious that the winner of such a league is no more than a scrub.
Now the next reason why America is so far behind in terms of skill (first reason was there's no real competition, because it can't keep up with Europe and its states don't really compete with each other) is a cultural thing. Obviously koreans are the best at starcraft II, they have played it more seriously on a larger scale and for a longer time than any other country. Americans prefer console games like halo and if they wanted to ever catch up with koreans they'd have to accept first that they suck and never will be good (looking at this thread I don't think that'll happen) and then practice their asses off and get sponsors, a practice environment, everything needed. Now the problem is who sponsors something you're obviously much worse at than almost anyone else?
The solution is to accept that you're not the best at everything (and probably anything) and choose a different game. You can also cheer for players and not for countries like I do. I've already accepted that I'm never going to see a good Austrian player ever entering the scene and quite frankly, I don't care.
Somewhat harsh but I agree in the main points. Especially the cultural thing you said. Either create real competition through an American only league (maybe with an MLG invite or another incentive) or give an opportunity for people outside of the US to come to play there (Select, Violet).
But it's true that VIBE (the current "top US player") does not compare to the top europrean pros and this stems from lack of competition, more than everything else. |
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| Stenstyren Sweden. June 13 2012 19:01. Posts 585 | Profile Blog # |
On June 13 2012 18:30 decaf wrote: It's the very same problem America got with any other kind of sport. In Europe there's a lot of different countries and every country has their pride and wants to be better than another country, so we all compete to show 'em who's the best at something, for instance football (soccer). But in America I don't think there's that kind of competition going on, since the USA is more or less one big country and you don't really care what state someone comes from, a win is a win for America, right?
So you're not exposed to as much competition as Europeans are. If you don't face competition there's no reason to get better. Now it's obvious Americans want to be goot as something, too, so the pick sports only they care about (like baseball or American football) and largely ignore others like real football, because they won't ever be able to keep up with the European competition. While I don't necessarily think Americans are lazy I do feel they have no real incentive to play.
All american players are (arguably) really bad compared to the tip top players, no one actually cares about them and if they do show up it's due to their behavior most of the time. So the only way to make Starcraft II (something with a similar competing dynamic like football (soccer), because it's global) attractive or interesting to the average American is to have a domestic league so you can give them something to cheer on and be proud of. It's a no brainer that this league would be a farce though, because it's obvious that the winner of such a league is no more than a scrub.
Now the next reason why America is so far behind in terms of skill (first reason was there's no real competition, because it can't keep up with Europe and its states don't really compete with each other) is a cultural thing. Obviously koreans are the best at starcraft II, they have played it more seriously on a larger scale and for a longer time than any other country. Americans prefer console games like halo and if they wanted to ever catch up with koreans they'd have to accept first that they suck and never will be good (looking at this thread I don't think that'll happen) and then practice their asses off and get sponsors, a practice environment, everything needed. Now the problem is who sponsors something you're obviously much worse at than almost anyone else?
The solution is to accept that you're not the best at everything (and probably anything) and choose a different game. You can also cheer for players and not for countries like I do. I've already accepted that I'm never going to see a good Austrian player ever entering the scene and quite frankly, I don't care.
A bit harsh. Americans are some of the top athletes in the world, they always come away with a stack of medals in every Olympic game. They have a great system with colleges competing against each other that really fosters great athletes, while the rest of the world sees school and sports as opposites the Americans have made it a requisite for poor kids to be good at both to ever get a proper schooling.
This is the model that Americans are used to, so why not use that? Set up a national team tournament where colleges compete against each other. This already exist, but in far too small scale. What I mean is that they should truly think big here, throw in a large amount of money and soon you'll have Harvard looking for the best SC2 players to recruit to their squad.
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