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| Adonminus Israel. June 13 2012 18:26. Posts 486 | Profile # |
Hello TL members! I'm adonminus, a highly ranked master player on eu who's expecting to be promoted to gm in season 8. Today is my birthday, and also my 200th post on TL. This is why I bring you this special guide to a strategy that I was developping all this year and I hope it will make a new revolution in PvT. Behold the 3 gate colo pressure:
Introduction:
+ Show Spoiler +A long time ago, I decided to 4 gate warp prism all in a terran, however what he did was simply make a ton of marines and hold it. Then I 4 gate warp prism all inned again, the other terran held it with scv pulling. I was amazed, what is this greediness? How dare a terran hold an all in with just marines and scvs while still having an expo up? That was a dishonor to the protoss race. This is why we're going to make things fair again, I was working since that day to create a build that can't be held with just marines, marauders and scvs from your usual 1 rax expo. My first experiment was to just 4 gate warp prism all in and then follow it up with colossus, however it didn't up working well since the colossus push and the 4 gate push were seperate. That's why I decided to go colo first and then get 3 more gates to warp stuff in just as they arrive. After a lot of refining, it actually worked and I was able to beat some decent gms on eu, and having close games with other highly ranked gm terrans. Still I wasn't satisfied, a protoss all in should always beat a terran, no matter what's your skill compared to your opponent skill. No, not even that, a protoss all in should even be able to transition into macro game. I was practising with my buddy, the barcode terran named |||||||||. So he told suggested me that 4 gates were too much, that a 3 gate would be more fitting. And yes, that was the missing part of the build. I was blinded by the need of 4 gates to all in, you can actually pressure with 3 gates! And not only that, but also you can expand behind it and it is just a very pressure reliant build now rather than an all in.
Early Game:
+ Show Spoiler +Very simple build order, maybe you might not make it 100% perfectly without decent probe stacking and good memory at first, but still very easy to learn. 9 pylon 12 gate 14 asim 16 pylon 17 core 18 asim 18 zealot 23 robo 24 warp 24 stalker 26 pylon Notes: 1) 4 chronos on probes, (we'll only need chrono later for colossus, so if you want you can even chrono probes 4 times but not really needed, you could use it on gates instead when you pressure) 2) A protoss pressure build has no fear of being scouted, that's why we build the robo before the stalker. 3) You could use the stalker to poke at his entrance to see if he fast expanded and then keep it at watch tower to see if he sends units to pressure. 4) You don't scout with probe since we need the minerals for crisp gateway and colossus timing. Preparing the infrastructure: Now at 100% robo, you make a robo bay and a warp prism. You can also get a few additional probes. 27 robo bay 27 warp prism 29 x2 gates 30 pylon 30 colossus 30 prism speed Base infrastructure: Even a noob like you can win with this build.* The reason we cut probes is that we want to have those gateways ready as soon as WG finishes, so we could make it look like a fake 4 gate prism all in and surprise him with colo. The speed prism is the most important, you will micro your colossus with the speed prism to dodge marauder missiles and viking missiles. (With perfect micro, marauders will never hit your colossus)
Pressure Guide:
+ Show Spoiler +You load up your zealot into the warp prism, you send the warp across the middle of the map, since you will want to retreat if you see an early marine push off fast expand, or a marauder marine pressure off 2 rax (in case of 2 rax, you could chrono out units off your 1 gate to defend it, remember to dodge marauder missiles using your warp prism). When you arrive to the closest watch tower near your opponent, you pick up your stalker at the watch tower. Now we send our warp prism in the his main to harass workers and weaken his economy before the push. Then you wait for his marines to arrive so you load up again and escape. Your warp gates should finished by this time. Warp in 3 stalkers. You should have 4 stalkers and 1 zealot. You could shoot up to high ground with stalkers to make him retreat and clear the landing area for your push, if not our bro the colo will do it, which arrives shortly after that. The pressure: Our friend the colossus comes to the party. It would be wise to wait for next warp, and warp in in 2 zealots and 1 sentry. Now you will have this army: 3 zealots 1 sentry 4 stalkers 1 colossus 1 warp prism at the front of the enemy base. You will notice that you have now 400 minerals for our expansion. (if you don't have 400 minerals because you haven't executed the build crisply enough, I recommand to just continue the pressure and keep constantly warping units until you reach 400 minerals in the bank). So: 48 Nexus (Should start at 8 minutes if I remember correctly) Now the battle at the opponent's base: you will focus all your micro on the colossus, here's a list of things you want to do: (note: having colossus selected during battle is key to be able to execute the following) 1) Focus fire marines. (same thing, they stand in a line, attack the middle). Lines of marines always make me happy, a pro terran should always split marines against colossus, this is why the only way to hold it as terran is extremly well executed micro and decision making. + Show Spoiler +2) Dodge marauder missiles. (Terran will most likely try to snipe your colossus, load the colossus into the warp prism to dodge those). Also marauders have a lot of hp, don't waste your precious colossus attacks on them, use stalkers instead to take them down. + Show Spoiler +3) Snipe vikings with 4-7 stalkers. (Usually you can just kill him if he goes fast starport because he won't have enough marine-marauder forces, but if it happens after a long fight, remember to snipe those with stalkers) Also if he attacks colossus, dodge them the same way as with marauders. + Show Spoiler +I'm abit lazy to put an image here but you know how to do it, no need image. 4) Use colossus to harass workers if army dies. (The colossus should never die, if it dies you messed up your micro with the warp prism, the most likely thing to die is your army, so if your army dies, you can now go harass his workers with speed prism colo to further weaken him while chronoing workers to your natural and establishing better macro). You should also be happy, each dead scv will give you more chances to be not only even but also hundreds of years ahead of terran once your expo finishes, same thing if he just pulls them. + Show Spoiler +5) If you see that his army is too strong and you can't engage him directly, then you use this abusive trick to win the game. You position your army with sentries at his natural and send warp prism to his main. If he doesn't know where's your army, he will send his army to attack warp prism at main while you just go in his natural and forcefield his ramp while killing all the workers there. + Show Spoiler +6) You could drop units on tanks, if he does 2 base tanks or 111. There's always an option to not do the pressure against a 111 and instead mass up colossi to defend it. + Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/8551/pvtantitank.jpg) Not sure if colossus or zealots is better, probably depends on number of tanks and their position
Mid game transitions:
+ Show Spoiler +There's a lot of ways to transition. One of my favories is to add a stargate and go colossus phoenix, I think that composition is really underrated and should be explored more. Or you could do the normal high templar transition while getting chargelots and upgrades (my terran friend says it's more effective and that phoenix isn't that cost effective but I'm not sure). Remember that the key to arrive to the mid game while being even or ahead is to kill enemy workers. I think it's impossible to hold the pressure while pulling workers, you can try to prove me wrong here though. Even if you do that, I can still harass the worker lines with speed prism colo. That's why in most cases you'll be even. In one replay, the guy simply ggs after seeing my expo even though he held the pressure. Colossus Phoenix holding mid game terran aggression: Problems, bro?
Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +I don't have a lot of replays at the moment, I will update guide for more replays in the future. Replay 1: http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28T%29losty_vs_%28P%29NOMAdonminus/20059I would say flawless execution with perfect results, plus that guy was highly ranked in gm last season. Replay 2: http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28T%29HoBBiT_vs_%28P%29NOMAdonminus/20060Average game, but shows the execution exactly as described in the guide. Replay 3: http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28T%29QnkDanil_vs_%28P%29NOMAdonminus/20061Kinda good game too, though I took the nexus a bit late but shows the phoenixes too. Replay 4: http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28T%29M%C7%82Dragon_vs_%28P%29NOMAdonminus/20062Crazy game, I thought I'd lose. Even though it doesn't look 100% like the guide, if you like crazy stuff then watch this. Replay 5: http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28P%29NOMAdonminus_vs_%28T%29sda/20063To tell you the truth, I have refined to the build to put in the nexus earlier only recently, so this game doesn't show expo but still gives you a nice idea about the micro in battle etc... Replay 6: http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28P%29NOMAdonminus_vs_%28T%29infsFargo/20064I decide to go really all in in this by proxying robo, I accidently lose the warp prism but the proxy robo saves me. Replay 7: http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28T%29ItsMineNotUr_vs_%28P%29NOMAdonminus/20065Quite BMish guy, just like replay 5, this is a bit old and doesn't expo. But as I said I'll update this with more new and better executed replays.
Thanks for reading. I hope this will change PvT to destroy the myth that terran has advantage in early-mid game. Protoss is technologically superior to Terran, that's why they must always win. Good luck and have fun.Last edit: 2012-07-07 02:15:13 |
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| Adonminus Israel. June 13 2012 18:26. Posts 486 | Profile # |
Feel free to critize, give feedback and try to improve this build. Also tell me if I have made any errors in the guide, or if things in replay don't match the guide even though I said they do.
Some extras:
Extra replay:
I played another game today, and I lost my warp prism with colossus though after the engagement. First of all I didn't pull the colossus back from the marines enough, and 2nd Ohana has this double cliff which is really bad for this build, you can't pull colossus back. But my fail allowed me to play the game into mid-late game and eventually win: http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28P%29NOMAdonminus_vs_%28T%29DenLilleMand/20066
Note about scouting:
About scouting with probe, sure you can do that, you'll lose a portion of minerals for more defense against cheeses and pressures. But on the other hand, not scouting is kinda greedy I guess. You can defend cheeses by chronoing an additional zealot and stalker from your gateway, and delaying the other 2 gates. Then you could strike with delayed 4 gates with the speed prism colossus. I'll show you a replay as soon as I'll find it.
Last edit: 2012-06-13 21:27:03 |
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| Rimak Latvia. June 13 2012 18:41. Posts 408 | Profile # |
Happy birthday Adonminus. You are awesome! |
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| markonovak82 Slovenia. June 13 2012 18:46. Posts 6 | Profile # |
| Did you forget 1st assimilator maybe? |
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| Mesha Bosnia-Herzegovina. June 13 2012 18:46. Posts 434 | Profile Blog # |
| I saw a couple of high level players doing something like this (babyK, puCK, ...). Really cool strategy. It looks like a really precise and detailed guide. Nice job, i will definetely try to add this to my fairly limited PvT arsenal. I gotta check your replays at once! I love this kind of aggressive and unorthodox strategies. Also i think since this is micro intensive strategy, it's probably great practice for both, high and lower level players. |
| | Reality hits you hard bro. |
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| Nihilnovi Sweden. June 13 2012 19:01. Posts 677 | Profile # |
Hm, 1 (delayed!)gas 1 base colo with speed prism and a lot of stalkers? Props to you for making it work, but how do you handle the game if the pressure fails? Go up to 4 gas asap? |
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| Adonminus Israel. June 13 2012 19:07. Posts 486 | Profile # |
On June 13 2012 19:01 Nihilnovi wrote: Hm, 1 (delayed!)gas 1 base colo with speed prism and a lot of stalkers? Props to you for making it work, but how do you handle the game if the pressure fails? Go up to 4 gas asap?
It's not delayed gas, I forgot to put 1st asim in bo. I get expo while pressuring, so I'm not that behind if it fails.Last edit: 2012-06-13 19:09:05 |
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| oOOoOphidian United States. June 13 2012 19:17. Posts 1235 | Profile # |
I take it this build is only good against a terran who opens 1 rax expand into 3 rax, double gas, and early add-ons? It's a very minimal push initially and as you said if that doesn't do damage you have to hope that colossus drops will keep you in the game.
I'm looking at it and thinking how poorly it would do against any 1 base build or even something like various marine/scv attacks after a fast expand. The hellion/marine/medivac build would also be quite strong as you don't have many units and they can keep you in your base while getting out vikings and more units to deny your drop harass.
Fortunately for those wanting to try this, the vast majority of terran players will simply execute the MKP or Bomber style marine/medivac timing every game, so you can pull out the wins for ladder points. I'm more a fan of the economic version that puCK uses, though. |
| | http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian |
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| Adonminus Israel. June 13 2012 19:40. Posts 486 | Profile # |
On June 13 2012 19:17 oOOoOphidian wrote: I take it this build is only good against a terran who opens 1 rax expand into 3 rax, double gas, and early add-ons? It's a very minimal push initially and as you said if that doesn't do damage you have to hope that colossus drops will keep you in the game.
I'm looking at it and thinking how poorly it would do against any 1 base build or even something like various marine/scv attacks after a fast expand. The hellion/marine/medivac build would also be quite strong as you don't have many units and they can keep you in your base while getting out vikings and more units to deny your drop harass.
Fortunately for those wanting to try this, the vast majority of terran players will simply execute the MKP or Bomber style marine/medivac timing every game, so you can pull out the wins for ladder points. I'm more a fan of the economic version that puCK uses, though.
It's good vs almost any expand build. The hellion/marime/medivac hits when you already got colossus so it doesn't work. And it does work vs 1 base simply because 1 base builds pressure you and colossus is great unit to defend. Though early marine scv all ins or proxies are really good vs this. Could you link me puCK's version? I want to check it out.
Also remember that this is just a build, each build has weaknesses. |
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| xSTaRFiSHx Germany. June 13 2012 20:01. Posts 161 | Profile # |
I absolutely enjoy ur attitude and humor. Thanks for the guide, I'll totally try it! :D
Edit: Just watched the first Replay. Now im even more in love with the build. It seems to utilize the real strenght of warpgates to an extend almost no others toss-opening does. I always wanted to play Protoss in an agressive fashion, using speed and harrassment to bully my enemy. Thank you so much and happy birthday. <3
Last edit: 2012-06-13 20:29:07 |
| | I wonder if there will be cake... |
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lazyo Germany. June 13 2012 20:06. Posts 90 | Profile # |
Cool build, speed prism collo is definately one of the most fun things to play in the game. I have just one criticism: Why no scouting? Going 1gate robo with only zeal/stalker when your opponent could have done an 11rax marine all-in (possibly proxied 2nd rax) is not exactly very safe. For boX it's OK to do but on ladder there is just too much cheese to tech that greedy blindly. It's not like those 70 minerals really really matter for 99% of players anyway. Happy Birthday!Last edit: 2012-06-13 20:06:46 |
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| JesMaz United States. June 13 2012 20:21. Posts 16 | Profile # |
| Oh, Em, Gee, I am totally stealing this build. Thank you for sharing it! |
| | Within you there is a stillness and sanctuary to which you can retreat at any time and be yourself. |
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| NET United States. June 13 2012 20:37. Posts 645 | Profile Blog # |
I saw White-Ra doing this build on his stream, it looks really strong. Its safe vs many Terran builds and the edge you get when Terran expands quickly is nice.
I notice a lot of Terran's try to bunker contain, expecting the Protoss to be taking their fast natural. And boom they get hit with a colossus and their army is on the other side of the map. Fun to execute as well.
I was trying to mess with the build myself and didn't know if I liked getting fast range or fast prism first. Either way awesome that you have a writeup we can go to to try and polish up the build and its variants.
Edit: Added some games I recently played. Just casual fun games. These games show me trying to mess with this build after watching White-Ra do it. By no means are they refined or anything. They are Fast Range Slow Prism. FRSP.
Fast Colossus Range Variant
Another Fast Colossus Range Variant
Last edit: 2012-06-13 21:05:09 |
| | "Dark Templar are the saviors of the Protoss Race." -Artosis |
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| Adonminus Israel. June 13 2012 21:01. Posts 486 | Profile # |
I played another game today, and I lost my warp prism with colossus though after the engagement. First of all I didn't pull the colossus back from the marines enough, and 2nd Ohana has this double cliff which is really bad for this build, you can't pull colossus back. But my fail allowed me to play the game into mid-late game and eventually win: http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28P%29NOMAdonminus_vs_%28T%29DenLilleMand/20066
About scouting with probe, sure you can do that, you'll lose a portion of minerals for more defense against cheeses and pressures. But on the other hand, not scouting is kinda greedy I guess. You can defend cheeses by chronoing an additional zealot and stalker from your gateway, and delaying the other 2 gates. Then you could strike with delayed 4 gates with the speed prism colossus. I'll show you a replay as soon as I'll find it.
Very old replay: http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28P%29Adonminus_vs_%28T%29DBS/17505. I wasn't very good back then, so I forgot warp gate research, and delayed the gateways like that, so you do the same thing without forgetting it against early pressure like 2 rax mm. That way 2 zealots 2 stalkers can hold and later colossus is out.Last edit: 2012-06-13 21:23:29 |
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| NET United States. June 13 2012 21:09. Posts 645 | Profile Blog # |
I saw your game vs Dragoon. Its pretty impressive to beat a player of that caliber, and I even think I saw you beat him on his stream if I'm correct. Very entertaining to watch and even more fun to play :D
This build works very well for the current 1 rax fe style Terran's play these days and it can hold off some wacky pressure builds Terran can throw. I like it. |
| | "Dark Templar are the saviors of the Protoss Race." -Artosis |
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lazyo Germany. June 14 2012 01:22. Posts 90 | Profile # |
In general no probe scout is OK sicne you can get information with a zeal/stalker poke. I'm just worried about a well-hidden 11 11 rax. with 8-10 scvs pulled. You will not be able to scout that out with your poke and it moves out very shortly after you arrive at his base. You will have WG 3/4 done and 2 stalker 1 zealot at best. Which just doesn't cut it. |
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| BronzeKnee United States. June 14 2012 01:29. Posts 2630 | Profile # |
Hwangsin is pretty much the master of one base Colossus builds, and this is pretty much his build, except for the expansion. I will say that his build largely doesn't work at High Masters and GM but I am looking forward to watching the replays to see how well this transitions.
On June 14 2012 01:22 lazyo wrote: In general no probe scout is OK sicne you can get information with a zeal/stalker poke. I'm just worried about a well-hidden 11 11 rax. with 8-10 scvs pulled. You will not be able to scout that out with your poke and it moves out very shortly after you arrive at his base. You will have WG 3/4 done and 2 stalker 1 zealot at best. Which just doesn't cut it.
You could always Probe scout, and just delay the timing a bit if you were that concerned. Alternatively, you could get 1 Stalker and 1 Sentry and a Zealot and the FF would buy you time to get more defenses up, thought it could delay the timing slightly in terms of gas.
I would actually just Probe scout and get up a quicker second gas and get a Sentry instead of the second Stalker, all while cutting the Zealot. Should end up about even in the end economically, and you get the early scout so you can adjust the build if you see cheese.
Last edit: 2012-06-14 01:36:38 |
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| zmansman17 United States. June 14 2012 01:31. Posts 2181 | Profile # |
| I will personally attest that even if I know this is coming, there have been many times where I have just lost even with good defense. This can be very hard to hold. |
| | ♞ - His EKG is flattening get me a defib stat! Prepped and Ready! - ♞ |
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| oOOoOphidian United States. June 14 2012 05:57. Posts 1235 | Profile # |
On June 13 2012 19:40 Adonminus wrote: Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 19:17 oOOoOphidian wrote: I take it this build is only good against a terran who opens 1 rax expand into 3 rax, double gas, and early add-ons? It's a very minimal push initially and as you said if that doesn't do damage you have to hope that colossus drops will keep you in the game.
I'm looking at it and thinking how poorly it would do against any 1 base build or even something like various marine/scv attacks after a fast expand. The hellion/marine/medivac build would also be quite strong as you don't have many units and they can keep you in your base while getting out vikings and more units to deny your drop harass.
Fortunately for those wanting to try this, the vast majority of terran players will simply execute the MKP or Bomber style marine/medivac timing every game, so you can pull out the wins for ladder points. I'm more a fan of the economic version that puCK uses, though.
It's good vs almost any expand build. The hellion/marime/medivac hits when you already got colossus so it doesn't work. And it does work vs 1 base simply because 1 base builds pressure you and colossus is great unit to defend. Though early marine scv all ins or proxies are really good vs this. Could you link me puCK's version? I want to check it out. Also remember that this is just a build, each build has weaknesses.
I'm mostly talking about how weak this build is before your first colossus pops (if dragon simply ran up your ramp when your warp prism was in the middle of the map he would have easily killed you) as well as how vulnerable it is to any sort of base trade by the terran - if they attack you while you are attacking them, it goes a lot better for them unless you already have colossus and speed.
Seems to me you're better off only actually doing this build if you scout a 1 rax expand, imo. You could easily just play normal if you scout something else.
Unfortunately puCK doesn't save vods on his channel, but the basic shell of the build is similar aside from getting a nexus in the process and focusing mainly on the colossus drop while playing otherwise fairly standard (just with delayed sentries, of course). That build is definitely harder to do properly, though, as you actually need skill with the colossus drop and it has to do damage as well as transition. Anyone who wants the easy route stick to the 1 base version, it's strong and simple. |
| | http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian |
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| Belha Italy. June 14 2012 06:10. Posts 2359 | Profile # |
| I love your refreshing out of the ordinary strats. Thx for sharing ^^ |
| | Please Blizz buff speevacs for TvP! |
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