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| Dark.EX United States. June 14 2012 16:28. Posts 1504 | Profile Blog # |
On June 14 2012 16:07 oOOoOphidian wrote:Tanks target bane/infestor while marine marauder kills everything else. I'm a huge fan of MMM, but in the late game tanks off 3 factories can give you a lot of utility if you are in a direct engagement. Pure MMM is way easier for zerg to beat and way harder for terran to do, whereas tanks can be very difficult for zerg players to engage if you use them properly and micro your bio around them. Pretty much the only time when tanks are useless in direct engagements is when you either don't target fire with them or you get caught unsieged. I would say that the reason MKP and others are winning with bio or other strategies is not because they are doing those strategies necessarily, but rather because they are microing better regardless of what they are doing, which makes their engagements more cost effective every time. Notice how + Show Spoiler [MLG Spoilers] +MKP lost to Stephano on Entombed Valley when he didn't micro at all. It had nothing to do with him going for a mech/bio mix and everything to do with his entire army being balled up and his tanks being unsieged even when he was already out onto creep.
I never said Siege Tanks were bad against Banelings or Infestors specifically, but they are very bad against Ultralisks and Zerglings, which players have been making a lot of recently.
I don't go pure MMM. I go MMM with Blue Flame Hellions and Thors, which do a lot for you in terms of stability. The Thors can focus down the Infestors easily if they get too close, and the Hellions roast away a lot of the Zerglings, which is a staple unit for Zerg at the moment. Thors are also good against Mutalisks and Broodlords, and Hellions can also Harass the Zerg's Drones.
Yes, high level players like MKP have amazing control which of course, lets them do great things with only MMM. You might want to spoiler the part where you mention how + Show Spoiler [MLG Spoilers] +MKP loses to Stephano in G2. Also, that loss did indeed have nothing to do with his composition. Last edit: 2012-06-14 16:32:42 |
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| oOOoOphidian United States. June 14 2012 17:00. Posts 1235 | Profile # |
What I'm saying is that while thor/hellion can help support MMM nicely against zerglings and ultralisks, they already do nicely against them. Without tanks to help target the banelings and infestors, you're relying purely on either awful micro from the zerg or great micro from yourself. In that way, the style you propose works exactly like pure MMM except that thors tank extremely well and are good if they can target ultras or brood lords.
Personally I prefer tech switching into 3 factory tank production with no hellions at all and fewer thors, as the tanks provide better utility.
While I understand that some people are simply bad at sieging up properly, target firing the right units, and splitting all during an engagement very quickly, I would say that a tankless style is less powerful overall than a properly controlled tank army.Last edit: 2012-06-14 17:01:01 |
| | http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian |
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| Dark.EX United States. June 14 2012 17:32. Posts 1504 | Profile Blog # |
You make it sound like Zerg players don't have fewer units the lower you go in leagues, and always have the same micro capacity.
Marine/Marauder/Tank/Medivac works okay if you focus fire perfectly with the Marauder/Tank and split really well with your Marines.
Likewise, Marine/Marauder/Hellion/Thor/Medivac works well if the Thors and Marauders tank damage and kill the armoured units while the Marines and Hellions pull back, avoid fungals, and kill everything else.
The big difference is that even with a Marine stimmed ahead of your army, the Zerg can just attack from 2-3 angles right after you clear the creep, and even with some time to siege up you're still very clumped up and die to mass Zerglings+Fungals+Ultralisks. On the other hand with MMMHT you don't need to siege up, and you're mobile enough that you can attack out of your way to kill an expansion with a fairly large portion of your army. |
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| Insoleet France. June 14 2012 17:34. Posts 1369 | Profile # |
As Zerg, i played against a Terran friend.
I did lingfestor tactic into ultras, like all zerg do today.
He first tried to marine tank : i won like 10 games in a row.
Then, we discussed and he tried a biomech composition.
He had :
- Marines
- Marauders
- Medivac
- Thor
- BF Hellions
- Tanks
Tanks to snipe infestors/banes, thor + Marauders to hold ultras, and the other units to hold the swarm.
Like a terran deathball, this completely roll over lingfestor.
Then i tried a zerg deathball ( roach, hydra+nydus/creep, cracklings, banes, some infestors ) and worked pretty good against his comp. That was thought.Last edit: 2012-06-14 17:37:08 |
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| NoisyNinja United States. June 14 2012 17:55. Posts 982 | Profile # |
| You did the math wrong on the Thor damage section. |
| | The world can go fuck itself. I'm not taking out my headphones. |
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| dynwar7 June 14 2012 18:17. Posts 1945 | Profile # |
So does this build require you to micro really good?
Because if not, without siege tanks and ghosts, your entire army can get NPed... |
| | Regarding the imbalance, hilarious to see Zergs defending themselves.... |
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| Dark.EX United States. June 14 2012 19:03. Posts 1504 | Profile Blog # |
On June 14 2012 18:17 dynwar7 wrote:
So does this build require you to micro really good?
Because if not, without siege tanks and ghosts, your entire army can get NPed...
I dunno, I think that would have to be tested and tried against, since it's so game specific.
NP could work, maybe it won't because it only has 7 range. |
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| Dark.EX United States. June 14 2012 19:06. Posts 1504 | Profile Blog # |
On June 14 2012 17:55 NoisyNinja wrote:
You did the math wrong on the Thor damage section.
Oops, silly me, I thought the Thor did 35x2 damage to ground.  Fixed. |
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| Im_hell United States. June 14 2012 20:18. Posts 16 | Profile # |
this kind of build was around for a long time
i think byun also known as ghostprime, is the one who used it in a pro lvl play |
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| Dark.EX United States. June 14 2012 21:18. Posts 1504 | Profile Blog # |
On June 14 2012 20:18 Im_hell wrote:
this kind of build was around for a long time
i think byun also known as ghostprime, is the one who used it in a pro lvl play
Can you point me to some examples? I'd love to see this.  |
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| Sapp Poland. June 14 2012 22:57. Posts 173 | Profile # |
this reasons are bulshit:
Zerglings are underrated units. They take a ton of damage(namely Siege Tank shells), are really cheap for Zerg to mass produce, and they can clean up small armies extremely easily.
-small armies of what exacly? of marines? lol.. and what other armies are there when you play tvz? O.o
Throw Infested Terran eggs onto your Siege Tanks to force an unsiege or have your Siege Tanks kill themselves, and as a side effect force the cooldown on their attack, letting the Zerg player run in with his army.
-That has nothing to do with tanks..
just MAKE A F****N RAVEN ALREADY!
Fungal a large portion of your Marines, forcing them to stay in place and die to Banelings. You can't split your Marines into groups of less than 4-5 while being at least 2 radius apart from other groups of Marines AND tank pushing at the same time. It's just not possible.
-That is WHY YOU NEED tanks. not the other way around. Just KNOW where zerg army is.. thats all.
During the games, a few things were extremely obvious.
First, Ultralisks just never died. Siege Tanks only do 49 damage with +1 Attack against fully upgraded Ultralisks and take 3 seconds to attack again. This means that it takes 10 Siege Tank shots to kill a single Ultralisk. Even at +3 Attack, Siege Tanks only do 59 damage against fully upgraded Ultralisks, which combined with lack of splash damage when Siege Tanks attack Ultralisks as well as the whopping 2 damage that +2 Marines do against Ultralisks
-So what? U wanted to play marine tank the whole game long? Just make 3rax+reactor and push marauders. Marauder is a good unit -.- If zerg can go from hatch tech into ultras, You can make 3 rax+techlabs more into lategame ffs
Don't say Drops, because this composition only takes 3-4 bases to get up. A good Zerg player can easily defend with Zerglings and Static Defences.
-Don't be silly, there is always something to drop. Or use it not to drop at all, just to push behind the drop, etc.
All of this combines to make Marine/Tank in TvZ non-viable past the first 10-12 minutes. Don't believe me, see MLG Spring Championships 2012.
-Actualy, even this is not true. Your opinion is based on a fact that DRG owns everybody, and Stephano shown good result vs terran. But that has nothing to do with tanks. Watch thorzain suppy, or aLive golden, or aLive Lucky.
But after that stupid reasoning.
This [G] is a good stuff. Especialy that raven thing. This is new and fun.
The only problem I've got is infrastructure. it needs fuckthones of money to do . You need rax with reactor, then few with techlabs, and then 2+ factories for thors and hellions, so at least 2+. and then 2 starports for medivacs and ravens.
Then you need upgrades for everything exept siege mode.. That's alot of money spend early on buldings. I feel like because of that, you are kinda weaker early to mid, but I think can live with that. |
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| ThaSlayer June 15 2012 00:03. Posts 656 | Profile # |
| Anyone watching Forgg or Bomber stream would notice they do go Marine BFH Thor in T v Z from time to time. Looks strong although no one has really picked it up |
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| 13_Doomblaze_37 United States. June 15 2012 00:25. Posts 701 | Profile # |
I like the idea behind the guide, but people need to understand that ravens are bad units. They are good for cleaning up creep, stopping 2-3 waves of corrupter attacks and doing cute stuff with autoturrets to block zerglings.
It takes 3 seeker missile to kill 1 broodlord (I could be wrong here). Assuming the whole zerg army can do a viking flower-esqe trick, they will kill the whole army. Generally, you can do damage to a few units and kill some. Against a good zerg, a seeker missile will either kill 1 or 0 units, because you can move the unit it targets away from the rest of the zerg army.
Seeker missiles can kill single infestors, but so can snipes, and theyre a lot cheaper. If terran starts incorporating mass raven into their army zerg will learn how to split like how terran did for banelings.
Tanks allow the terran to be extremely greedy early game, but the zerg can always be more greedy, so their place in TvZ is definitely falling. Good guide! Ill be trying it out when I can play sc2 again. |
| | Chill:I showed empathy by making Idra's nineteenth ban on Teamliquid a 2-day |
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| TwilightRain Germany. June 15 2012 01:27. Posts 259 | Profile # |
| Can anybody please explain why we don't see cloaked ghosts used in TvZ bio-only compositions the same way they are used in TvP, namely for EMPing/sniping spellcasters? They are not as heavy on the gas as ravens, fairly easy to use,plus zergs normally don't have the habit of having a detector wander with their army, so, why not? |
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| Crowned United States. June 15 2012 01:54. Posts 365 | Profile # |
| I'm a masters player and I play tankless as well for the most part, but people can't just disregard Marine/Tank as a viable TvZ strategy because it is. You can still see players like TSLPolt absolutely dominate Zergs with pure marine/tank compositions. |
| | It's cool to love to win, but it's better to hate to lose. |
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| RonNation United States. June 15 2012 02:17. Posts 337 | Profile Blog # |
| Thank you very much for this guide, I will be practicing this when I get home from work tonight. I really really hate to use siege tanks when i random T vs Z so hopefully this will be fun xD |
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| HeroMystic United States. June 15 2012 02:24. Posts 894 | Profile # |
On June 15 2012 01:27 TwilightRain wrote:
Can anybody please explain why we don't see cloaked ghosts used in TvZ bio-only compositions the same way they are used in TvP, namely for EMPing/sniping spellcasters? They are not as heavy on the gas as ravens, fairly easy to use,plus zergs normally don't have the habit of having a detector wander with their army, so, why not?
Ghosts should be used more, but they're quite slow. They can't stim to speed up and they're pretty bad to use with drops unless you're nuking. A lot of this has to do with the Snipe nerf in terms of their opportunity cost.
When you're dropping everywhere, and trying to keep your units spread, and constantly kiting Ultras/Cracklings, etc, Ghosts are hard to implement because their movement speed is so slow.
Regardless though I do agree Ghosts should be used to EMP/Snipe Infestors.
EDIT:
On June 14 2012 22:57 Sapp wrote:this reasons are bulshit:
Show nested quote +Zerglings are underrated units. They take a ton of damage(namely Siege Tank shells), are really cheap for Zerg to mass produce, and they can clean up small armies extremely easily.
-small armies of what exacly? of marines? lol.. and what other armies are there when you play tvz? O.o
Drops, Leftover Marine/Tank army after an initial battle, etc.
Show nested quote +Throw Infested Terran eggs onto your Siege Tanks to force an unsiege or have your Siege Tanks kill themselves, and as a side effect force the cooldown on their attack, letting the Zerg player run in with his army.
-That has nothing to do with tanks.. just MAKE A F****N RAVEN ALREADY!
Aggressive, but I agree here.
Show nested quote +Fungal a large portion of your Marines, forcing them to stay in place and die to Banelings. You can't split your Marines into groups of less than 4-5 while being at least 2 radius apart from other groups of Marines AND tank pushing at the same time. It's just not possible.
-That is WHY YOU NEED tanks. not the other way around. Just KNOW where zerg army is.. thats all.
Tanks are only really viable because they're so good at outranging Infestors, but it's silly to say they're needed.
Show nested quote +During the games, a few things were extremely obvious.
First, Ultralisks just never died. Siege Tanks only do 49 damage with +1 Attack against fully upgraded Ultralisks and take 3 seconds to attack again. This means that it takes 10 Siege Tank shots to kill a single Ultralisk. Even at +3 Attack, Siege Tanks only do 59 damage against fully upgraded Ultralisks, which combined with lack of splash damage when Siege Tanks attack Ultralisks as well as the whopping 2 damage that +2 Marines do against Ultralisks
-So what? U wanted to play marine tank the whole game long? Just make 3rax+reactor and push marauders. Marauder is a good unit -.- If zerg can go from hatch tech into ultras, You can make 3 rax+techlabs more into lategame ffs
You're kinda proving his point when saying that he should make Marauders and stop going Marine/Tank.
Overall I personally believe Marine/Tank stopped being the ideal composition ever since Zerg figured out that Creep Spread is good, but it's by no means bad. Many simply believes that there are better compositions nowadays.Last edit: 2012-06-15 02:34:00 |
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| Sapp Poland. June 15 2012 02:46. Posts 173 | Profile # |
On June 15 2012 00:25 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
I like the idea behind the guide, but people need to understand that ravens are bad units. They are good for cleaning up creep, stopping 2-3 waves of corrupter attacks and doing cute stuff with autoturrets to block zerglings.
How can you say Ravens are good to cleaning creep, stoping coruptors(also mutas btw) and block lings with autoturets
(also have you ever seen a mineral line after being hit by two seeker misles? have you ever seen a burrowed infestor spraying IT on your tanks before attack when You have one raven there? have you ever walk on a baneling with raven flying over your army? and don't force me to start with counting the amount of minerals you get from mules that you save just because you have one raven)
and then say that they are bad. are you blnd or wtf? Noone is (and OP is not for sure) telling you to do 931247123894 of them.
Tanks allow the terran to be extremely greedy early game, but the zerg can always be more greedy, so their place in TvZ is definitely falling.
-fuck this is stupid...
Seeker missiles can kill single infestors, but so can snipes, and theyre a lot cheaper. If terran starts incorporating mass raven into their army zerg will learn how to split like how terran did for banelings.
-ya, and that's called EVOLUTION.
It takes 3 seeker missile to kill 1 broodlord (I could be wrong here). Assuming the whole zerg army can do a viking flower-esqe trick, they will kill the whole army. Generally, you can do damage to a few units and kill some. Against a good zerg, a seeker missile will either kill 1 or 0 units, because you can move the unit it targets away from the rest of the zerg army.
-yes, you are wrong. but not with your math. shooting missles are less apm intensive than splitting armies, and you can't make mistakes while doing this. And it's not like you will be hitting that broodlords with ravens only -.-'
And you are hateing on them only because you are too cheap to build starport with techlab
Grr Last edit: 2012-06-15 02:54:55 |
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| Qxz Canada. June 15 2012 02:50. Posts 189 | Profile # |
For what it's worth, IdrA just said that pure bio is bad on his stream, http://www.twitch.tv/eg_idra/b/321250148 at 22 minutes approximately.
Transcript from a game he won vs SCSXenocider:
SCSXenocider: you're the only NA zerg that I'm 0-9 against, is there anything to do besides being better?
EGIdrA: pure bio is bad
SCSXenocider: should I have started tanks
EGIdrA: after like 4 hellions and a third
Last edit: 2012-06-15 02:51:11 |
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| Sapp Poland. June 15 2012 02:54. Posts 173 | Profile # |
On June 15 2012 02:50 Qxz wrote:For what it's worth, IdrA just said that pure bio is bad on his stream, http://www.twitch.tv/eg_idra/b/321250148 at 22 minutes approximately. Transcript from a game he won vs SCSXenocider: SCSXenocider: you're the only NA zerg that I'm 0-9 against, is there anything to do besides being better? EGIdrA: pure bio is bad SCSXenocider: should I have started tanks EGIdrA: after like 4 hellions and a third
This tread never spoken about "pure bio" O.o? wtf? |
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