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| Emporium England. June 15 2012 04:48. Posts 143 | Profile # |
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/85431952/tvt.SC2Replay
The replay.
Ok so the start is a mess, I was trying a new open against Terran, purely just looking at most Terran opens that I see, and wanted to try and find a good solid early counter that can transition well into mid-game,(that I am comfortable doing at my skill level).
As such the build order is messy at the start, and I miss the timing, as he has siege tanks up, when I do eventually push.
When I see he has tanks should I just go home and tech switch? or is pushing through at that point better? I'm talking purely in terms of cost effiiciency.
When I do push and try and go up his ramp, I fail hard, my micro is not good, and i guess I was unsure as to whether or not i should go for his nat, or try and take his main? WOuld taking his nat be a fair trade there? The answer is yes I would guess, but i kinda also mean, is it a fair trade that i HAVENT'T gone up his ramp and killed him. Which I definitely could have done with better micro.
I then transition into mid game, I think that went well, I stopped him from going 3 base, and dropped him, but neither seemingly could I do enough of to win. They then pull out a big counter, and I am scrambling to hold on for a while, and it is the first time i see BC's,
Should I just keep trading with them here, and take bases and starve him out? i don't think I had enough for this to be possible or effective.
at this point when he is just gaining his third, and I already have mine up, should i change to BC's as well?
Then from then on, I can't and aren't trading favourably and late game, is just all about lack of minerals?
im hoping that specifically you could help me with where i was going wrong.
I am in silver, so i understand that this won't be necessarily as high level in terms of macro, but any advice, and constructive criticism would be very appreciated.
Cheers
Emporium
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| Filter Canada. June 15 2012 07:37. Posts 591 | Profile Blog # |
I watched the replay, and the expansions come down at 9:30 but nobody attacked before that. If you're not going to expand by then you have to attack, your opener would have also been demolished by any kind of early pressure with tanks, you don't have any units that can take air control or kill tanks. At that point you can honestly stop learning from the replay and move on.
You attack into a tank line for no reason, with no scan ahead @11minutes. Why did you attack? Do you have an answer for that? If not then you need to seriously rethink your attack. I do the same thing in masters too sometimes, just make a dumb attack but it's something I'm actively working on.
Why is there a planetary at your third? You know he has tanks and it's not exactly a difficult to defend base so why bother?
The game last so long because neither player knows when to attack, or how to attack properly and both players have no mechanical skill to just overwhelm, I didn't bother watching past 30 minutes for that reason. You shouldn't either, don't analyze anything past your opener at this point until your mechanics are good enough that lategame matters.
Breaking apart from the actual replay itself, the way your write up your own analysis is very telling of the problems you have. You dismiss your opener as messy and then discount that fact and start to discuss tech switches etc. If your opener is messed up then stop there and fix that first, ignore everything else. I regularly win games using only marines and medivacs in tvt because strong macro and taking good fights goes a very long way in this game. You need to stop focusing on so many small things like trading etc and work on your core basics.
You probably don't want to hear this, but macro better. If you have an opener you know extremely well you can quickly analyze if you executed it well (if you do and its a good opener you should win 90% of your silver, gold, plat games with bad decision making). You also start to learn how to engage with the army comp you're going to have, instead of trying to get all the counters. Once your opener is pristine you can start to look at things like trading, and which base to attack properly.
The other thing most people forget is that at the lower levels you simply can not put any weight in what your opponent does, or is doing. His opener will suck, his expand timing and attack patterns will suck. What that means is if you're thinking you need to deny a third at X time, or make X unit to stop Y unit eventually you'll get to a point where the player who makes Y unit uses it to attack and kill you before you can make your X counter unit, you need to be able to use Z unit to kill Y unit because thats what your opener will provide you with.
A really good example of this is I open with a banshee FE in TvT that provides me with 2 vikings early. This allows me to shutdown hellion drops, banshee plays from my opponent and straight up hellion pushes. I also have the capability to produce my own hellions should my opponent push with very early marines (and if he does my banshee kills his base). My opener provides me the ability to deal with any sort of early push, with the exception of a few cheeses, as long as I control properly. I know what situations I need to be on the lookout for and I have the map control that lets me setup my defense in time to deal with them.
I do not however go oh I need to get tanks before his push, because I can't. I don't have time I need to delay him so that my bio force can get up and running to deal with his push properly.
Edit: And just for the record, my tvt's never enter into super long drawn out states of tank wars because I play bio. I spent 2 months learning to play mech properly and found it extremely boring, although it was extremely strong. Games where I go tank marine are also not drawn out simply because myself and my opponent are good enough to find weakspots and take advantage of it more often than not.Last edit: 2012-06-15 07:40:39 |
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| Emporium England. June 15 2012 17:00. Posts 143 | Profile # |
Thank you, I appreciate the insights.
Although one thing that i do disagree on is that i shouldn't be learning to play against (and win) s/g/p players(@because they suck')? but learn the timings etc, that are the most effective at the higher levels, because then they will be just as strong/stronger at the lower ones, and this also means that i will become a better player.
I pushed into his line, because i understood i had messed up the timing, and wanted albeit not well as it turns out to trade that open and try and make into something. I understand that my in game mechanics are not strong, but when watching the game afterwards, i can also come to similar understanding of what i should have done as players much higher than me. Be it intuition, or harsh self reflection. So went reflecting afterwards, i understood that when i pushed the vital questions at this point, were should i? and what to hit to be most effective now that the timing isnt?
if this thought process is incorrect, then again please let me know.
Your example is insightful thanks, I know my game understanding will be not as high, so these insights into the way you think is very helpful.
I think the main factor for improvement, is learning and understanding the game deeper, and as such responses to opens will becomes more streamlined, and also my own will do the same. |
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| ArcticRaven France. June 15 2012 17:17. Posts 1180 | Profile # |
On June 15 2012 17:00 Emporium wrote:
Although one thing that i do disagree on is that i shouldn't be learning to play against (and win) s/g/p players(@because they suck')? but learn the timings etc, that are the most effective at the higher levels, because then they will be just as strong/stronger at the lower ones, and this also means that i will become a better player.
Timings is not a senseful word at a low level of play. Banshee getting out at 7:30, 6 pool hitting at 2:30 ? That doesn't mean anything, because they will be messed up anyway. You'll have all the time to learn those later, right now they are not useful and you should focus on things that really help : constant SCV production, supply blocks.... and most importantly your build order. Just focus on perfecting your exectuion - things will go naturally after that.
I think the main factor for improvement, is learning and understanding the game deeper, and as such responses to opens will becomes more streamlined, and also my own will do the same.
I've made the error of thinking that just smart play could get me out of silver. I was demoted to bronze instead. Then, once in bronze, i learned an effective 1 base allin and that got me to gold with mechanics. Mechanics are what make you good in lower leagues. Not smart play. Be a robot first, and then you can really be smart, because otherwise you won't be good enough to apply any strategy you might come up with. |
| | [EatThePath] I call assassins as my faction. Please tell me we can all agree that in the version of history, Steppes of War will be Jerusalem. |
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| bmoneyAK June 15 2012 18:33. Posts 79 | Profile # |
Hi Emporium,
I think Filter's advice to concentrate on fundamentals applies to Plat and above. Think of it like this: Hockey players learn to skate and shoot the puck before they learn plays. If a mixed martial arts fighter with high basic skills (punching, defending) fights another with low basic skills but a knowledge of complicated grappling moves without the ability to execute smoothly, the former is going to knock the latter out before the latter's knowledge comes into play. |
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| Emporium England. June 15 2012 21:14. Posts 143 | Profile # |
thanks for the advice.
it makes sense, it just seems very long winded, but i guess this is the reason for the lower divisions. |
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| HeeroFX United States. June 15 2012 21:29. Posts 1953 | Profile Blog # |
| In addition to what everyone else said. I suggest opening with some sort of aggression. It could be like 3 reaper expand. Or a couple of banshees, or just be active with your marines until he has tanks out. |
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| Emporium England. June 15 2012 21:36. Posts 143 | Profile # |
IS this just so he overproduces on units/and thus underproduces on scv/drone/probes?
aswell as for map control and harassment.
and thank you for the advice. |
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