| TangSC Canada. June 15 2012 12:46. Posts 1652 | Profile Blog # | |
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| blade55555 United States. June 15 2012 13:16. Posts 14259 | Profile Blog # |
On June 15 2012 12:46 TangSC wrote:Haha I just commented in Belial's discussion about this style. Here's a link to a stream VOD of he does zergling/infestor/ultralisk in every zvz: http://www.twitch.tv/mstephano/b/320060897
Yup like I said that's where I got the build  |
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| joeyBanana Germany. June 15 2012 14:07. Posts 77 | Profile # |
great write-up blade, accidentally i was doing this build for the last 2 weeks too, i think it was stephano vs violet on metropolis @ spring championship, right?
i would not label the build as defensive, more kind of evasive/counterish  you have to backstab and attack him as soon as he moves out (caution: banelings!). you pointed that out but i think you really have to underline that stylistic choice. map-awareness and game sense is really needed since it looks sooo stupid losing ur whole army to banes or festors, cause you're not watching.
its kind of a race against time where you will win, as long as you get to hive and ultras and before that, you have to think of ways not to die and doing guerilla tactics where you can!
again, good write-up, thx for the contribution <3 |
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| ArcticRaven France. June 15 2012 16:08. Posts 1180 | Profile # |
Ok, thanks for the advice on broodlords. I'll stick with ultras  .
I have another question : where is a good place to engage the roach-based army with this ? And also do you break the rocks on Cloud Kingdom ? |
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T.O.P.  Hong Kong. June 15 2012 16:19. Posts 4472 | Profile Blog # |
| I think it's pretty hard to hold a 3rd vs +1 roach with this build, especially if they hit before infestors are done. Where do you put your spines? 2 at nat 3 at main? |
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| blade55555 United States. June 15 2012 16:27. Posts 14259 | Profile Blog # |
On June 15 2012 16:08 ArcticRaven wrote:Ok, thanks for the advice on broodlords. I'll stick with ultras . I have another question : where is a good place to engage the roach-based army with this ? And also do you break the rocks on Cloud Kingdom ?
I do not break the rocks on cloud kingdom, but I am also wanting small choke points with infestors so that I can really mess him up if he just goes up there.
You want to engage in a more open area so you can get a surround though is preferable ^^.
On June 15 2012 16:19 T.O.P. wrote:
I think it's pretty hard to hold a 3rd vs +1 roach with this build, especially if they hit before infestors are done. Where do you put your spines? 2 at nat 3 at main?
I have been trying to get at minimum 2 spines at both natural + third. You will be pretty mineral heavy anyway due to only going lings. I would add more if you think you need them obviously.
In one of my replays for example I played a guy who was doing 3 base roach/ling/speedbane trying to kill me and I made I had 5 at third, 3 at natural? Would have to watch the rep but you'll notice I made a decent amount of spines.
If he's doing +1 is he just doing this off of 2 base? You could go for base trade (or just counter attack with some lings) if you don't think you can hold your third. The great thing about this style is speedlings are fast and you can really make the game go wild if you can't hold your third. At minimum you will deny his third so if he kills yours it's not that big of a deal it just evens the game out instead of you having a little more of an advantage.
As long as you can keep him on 2 bases with you, you are in a better position then he is (at least from experience).
In one (might be 2) of my replays you will notice me knowing I can't hold his attack at my third and counter while keeping my natural defended (infestors popped). I killed his third and I think did some decent damage at his natural and eventually just won the game.
On another note, I realized I forgot to add in the build when to get ling speed, updated that with first 100 gas .Last edit: 2012-06-15 16:28:13 |
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 Belial88 United States. June 15 2012 16:27. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
| ^ Can you be a little more specific. +1 roaches from a standard fast third play, in which case you should have 1/1 which negates the +1 attack and only take your third once you have infestors out, to which ling/infestor/spine rapes roaches and you put spines up at your third using creep spread (and even then ling/infestor owns roaches I think unless he's 2 base all-inning in which case you should not be taking a third anyways), or a roach ling all-in with +1 which is just a bad roach/ling all-in (which is why people do roach/ling with no attack upgrade and much quicker instead) and you just hold like you normally would regardless of what build you planned to do - make some spines at your nat while teching up to lair on 2 base and then winning with a huge tech advantage against the all-in (mass speed/burrow roaches, mutas, infestors, whatever). |
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| SeinGalton South Africa. June 15 2012 18:09. Posts 297 | Profile Blog # |
| Thanks Blade, I've really been trying to use this style in ZvZ as it seems so much more fun than the usual style. But up until now, I've just been fumbling around in the dark. This is exactly the type of guide I've needed to take my ZvZ to the next level. Your work is greatly appreciated! |
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| Flonomenalz Nigeria. June 15 2012 19:25. Posts 2903 | Profile # |
What I've been thinking is, once I recognize that it's Ling/Infestor, switch to a defensive macro style. By this I mean, my only objective is to deny his 4th and take my 4th AND 5th. It's really greedy, but I think it should work since the Ling/Infestor player isn't aggressive at all until Ultras. I also immediately cut roach production, drop an infestation pit, and rush to broods. With the amount of gas from a 4th and 5th base, I should be able to get enough broods to both attack the the Ling/Infestor player AND defend my bases from the base trades.
It's pretty map dependent though... idk. I just haven't played against it enough times to develop a counter. Belial, wanna play some games today? |
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| blade55555 United States. June 16 2012 02:16. Posts 14259 | Profile Blog # |
On June 15 2012 19:25 Flonomenalz wrote:
What I've been thinking is, once I recognize that it's Ling/Infestor, switch to a defensive macro style. By this I mean, my only objective is to deny his 4th and take my 4th AND 5th. It's really greedy, but I think it should work since the Ling/Infestor player isn't aggressive at all until Ultras. I also immediately cut roach production, drop an infestation pit, and rush to broods. With the amount of gas from a 4th and 5th base, I should be able to get enough broods to both attack the the Ling/Infestor player AND defend my bases from the base trades.
It's pretty map dependent though... idk. I just haven't played against it enough times to develop a counter. Belial, wanna play some games today?
Hm I don't think you can get away with taking a 4'th and 5'th base. I played a zerg on kr (the replay is one of the 5 I believe) on daybreak who did something like that. He went for a 4'th and 5'th base, I denied his fifth easily multiple times and he even made a ton of spines but I eventually won.
I don't see how you'll ever get enough broodlords to defend bases and attack, that takes a lot of time and the zerg going ling/infestor will have ultralisks out by like 15 minutes I think? Don't see that being an effective counter at all. |
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| oOOoOphidian United States. June 16 2012 05:25. Posts 1249 | Profile # |
| How does this deal with Roach/Hydra play? I find it nearly impossible to hold Roach/Hydra armies (typically with +2 attack) in the midgame when doing this style. It's really frustrating and infestor/spine doesn't cut it. Ultras can't be out in time really... |
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| blade55555 United States. June 16 2012 05:55. Posts 14259 | Profile Blog # |
On June 16 2012 05:25 oOOoOphidian wrote:
How does this deal with Roach/Hydra play? I find it nearly impossible to hold Roach/Hydra armies (typically with +2 attack) in the midgame when doing this style. It's really frustrating and infestor/spine doesn't cut it. Ultras can't be out in time really...
Infestor spine should hold it quiet easily as long as you are fungeling right. You should have about 6 or so infestors with a ton of lings, with surround and good fungels and spines attacking you should be able to hold it assuming you are macroing correctly and doing all the timings right. You do need more then 1 spine, 3-5 is what you should be aiming for. |
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| TangSC Canada. June 16 2012 05:57. Posts 1652 | Profile Blog # |
On June 15 2012 13:16 blade55555 wrote:Yup like I said that's where I got the build
I know! Just thought others may benefit from another reference |
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| TangSC Canada. June 16 2012 05:58. Posts 1652 | Profile Blog # |
On June 16 2012 05:55 blade55555 wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 05:25 oOOoOphidian wrote:
How does this deal with Roach/Hydra play? I find it nearly impossible to hold Roach/Hydra armies (typically with +2 attack) in the midgame when doing this style. It's really frustrating and infestor/spine doesn't cut it. Ultras can't be out in time really...
Infestor spine should hold it quiet easily as long as you are fungeling right. You should have about 6 or so infestors with a ton of lings, with surround and good fungels and spines attacking you should be able to hold it assuming you are macroing correctly and doing all the timings right. You do need more then 1 spine, 3-5 is what you should be aiming for.
Are there situations you'd consider more than 5 spines? |
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| TyrionSC2 United States. June 16 2012 06:01. Posts 254 | Profile # |
This is the same strategy that we saw leenock vs violet do at mlg spring champs.
I was curious about it as I haven't really seen it used recently other than that game.
How does this build work against somebody going mass infestor? A lot of people that I play with started doing that after NSHS Freaky did his mass infestor spine play. I figured it would be better vs this because fungal > upgrades. Then I guess when the ultras pop it's different, but I'm still not convinced that mass ling is a great choice in zvz. |
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| blade55555 United States. June 16 2012 06:10. Posts 14259 | Profile Blog # |
On June 16 2012 05:58 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 05:55 blade55555 wrote:
On June 16 2012 05:25 oOOoOphidian wrote:
How does this deal with Roach/Hydra play? I find it nearly impossible to hold Roach/Hydra armies (typically with +2 attack) in the midgame when doing this style. It's really frustrating and infestor/spine doesn't cut it. Ultras can't be out in time really...
Infestor spine should hold it quiet easily as long as you are fungeling right. You should have about 6 or so infestors with a ton of lings, with surround and good fungels and spines attacking you should be able to hold it assuming you are macroing correctly and doing all the timings right. You do need more then 1 spine, 3-5 is what you should be aiming for.
Are there situations you'd consider more than 5 spines?
Not really, I mean if you have a ton of excess minerals maybe, but otherwise no or if he's doing a 2 base all in then yes like earlier one |
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 Windwaker June 16 2012 07:01. Posts 917 | Profile # |
On June 16 2012 06:01 TyrionSC2 wrote:
This is the same strategy that we saw leenock vs violet do at mlg spring champs.
I was curious about it as I haven't really seen it used recently other than that game.
How does this build work against somebody going mass infestor? A lot of people that I play with started doing that after NSHS Freaky did his mass infestor spine play. I figured it would be better vs this because fungal > upgrades. Then I guess when the ultras pop it's different, but I'm still not convinced that mass ling is a great choice in zvz.
i saw the game between leenock and violet (link: http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/events/17-spring-championship#1423/1457/1;89926) its a good example that you loose without spines even when the opponent goes for the same style, cause a roach transition can/will kill you |
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| Belial88 United States. June 16 2012 07:29. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
There's no way someone on 3 base will have more infestors than you do on 2 base. Mass infestor doesn't really work against this. Roach based aggression of any kind is held by simply making enough spines. A roach transition will not kill you as long as you have enough spines and dont tech too quickly to ultras before making enough infestors.
Only thing I can see beating this is when playing standard fast third roach, you cut roach production asap, go infestors, and similarly tech hive and basically do the exact same thing but with a faster third and a fourth taken with a few roaches and ling/infestor support. |
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| Windwaker June 16 2012 07:35. Posts 917 | Profile # |
On June 16 2012 07:29 Belial88 wrote:
A roach transition will not kill you as long as you have enough spines and dont tech too quickly to ultras before making enough infestors.
thats exactly what happened in that game, leenock didnt build any spinecrawler at all.
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| Tenda United States. June 16 2012 10:08. Posts 135 | Profile # |
| Thanks for the guide, im definitely going to be trying to use this play style. |
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