On June 16 2012 14:19 Candadar wrote: Yes, it's reality.
And I'd rather have a reality of level headed people who approached things logically instead of going "LOOK AT WHAT A HORRIBLE PERSON THIS IS! WHAT IF HE KILLED -YOUR- FAMILY MEMBER? LET'S GO HUNT HIM DOWN AND SHOOT HIM. CLEARLY THE WAY TO STOP VIOLENCE IS TO PERPETUATE MORE VIOLENCE."
Jesus Christ, does everyone who blindly supports vigilanteism and the death penalty rely so heavily on pleas to emotion?
It's a fucking failure of society when people would rather go around and kill people in revenge instead of try to make an environment where we fix people and approach things rationally. Because, as you may or may no know, he initially posted:
Hope they shoot the guy. Nothing would please me more then for the security company to figure out who it was before the police and track him down and put 4 rounds into his head.
Which, as I said before and will stand by again, makes this guy just as emotionally, mentally, and reasonably unstable as the person who did this and just as fucking dangerous in my mind to a stable society.
Let's not talk about the death penalty because that's not what this is about. It's about vigilante justice that we're talking about. I agree that certain people deserve to die. Like I said, the world is a better place without Ted Bundy and would be without Charles Manson. However, to say that "IF YOU KILL SOMEONE YOU FORFEIT YOUR LIFE TO LIVE LET'S JUST PUT A BULLET IN THE BACK OF THEIR HEAD TO GET OVER WITH IT" is so fucking childish, impetuous, and ridiculous that I can't help but equate you to the very definition of insanity.
My line of thought is a product of its environment. Crimes are not punished harshly enough. If that makes me come across as insane then whatever. Im not about to go and kill 3 people and nearly a 4th over money. What I would like to see vs what I would acctually do have very little in common.
I dont condone vigilantes but I understand why they do what they do. The system doesn't work. Vigilianteism springs from this very thing. The fact that some people around the US and Canada are taking to vigilanteism should be sending signals to the governments that something is VERY WRONG with the current justice system.
I would love nothing more then for our jails to go under a massive reform and acctually do what they are suppose to do but like I said, politicians get more votes changing health care then prison so its not gonna happen.
Last edit: 2012-06-16 14:33:09
"I walked through fire, and didn't get burned." Claire Bennet
On June 16 2012 14:31 Amaterasu1234 wrote: This is how I see the conversation right now:
Exigent and Co.: This is how the world is. Candadar: Yes, but that's not how it has to be. Exigent and Co.: ...umm...yeah, this is how it has to be. Candadar: ...no.
and then back and forth yes's and no's....
Candadar, I see what you're saying and I, for one, agree with you. Perhaps you should try putting it differently or clarifying your position because Exigent (and Co.) clearly does not understand what you're saying. (That's not to say you're dumb or anything, Exigent, but, from what I undersand of Candadar's position, you've built up a pretty good strawman).
I understand what he's saying...he doesn't agree with a knee jerk reaction, and thinks rehabilitation over "revenge" is what the answer should be. I agree with this, rehabilitation should be the correct choice. However this is the real world and our current justice system promotes very little chance at rehabilitation. In order to achieve what prison is meant for (reforming inmates into productive citizens) would require massive restructuring of the system and since that isn't happening anytime soon rehabilitating cold blooded murderers really isn't even an option.
Ausfailia Australia. June 16 2012 14:44. Posts 123
On June 16 2012 10:42 Freeze967 wrote: Hope they catch the guy :/
Hope they shoot the guy. Nothing would please me more then for the security company to figure out who it was before the police and track him down and put 4 rounds into his head.
I never understand people like you.
You're just as mentally dangerous and unstable in my mind as the guy who did this. I shouldn't even have to explain why. If you can't see it, you never will. How the fuck anyone can think this is a logical, civilized, fair, and even safe way to approach anything is beyond me.
That isn't justice, it's revenge and emotional knee-jerk reaction and only perpetuates more needless violence and shooting.
How about we fucking capture him and go through the works of the judicial system instead of your wild west justice shit.
EDIT: Condolences to families of the victims and I hope police get him soon or he turns himself in. Glad the situation was handled in an apparently decent way. Hope no one else gets hurt.
He's not mentally unstable or dangerous at all. Thats a terrible statement to make. The guy murdered 3 people in cold blood, what was civilized, fair or safe about that? If I was at the crime scene and had just witnessed the murders and shot and killed him, would I too be as mentally dangerous and unstable? If it were my family member he killed, or my wife, would you have the audacity to call me just as dangerous as him because inside me I want him dead?
There is most certainly an argument for the justice system, but the way you just stated your post makes you sound like a complete douche bag. How dare you call someone equal to a homicidal maniac like that. SMH
Of course what he did wasn't civilized. But guess who is: Us, and the justice system.
Yes, if you were at the crime scene and saw this going down you would have every reason to shoot that guy down in defense and I would commend you with every medal I could make up for you and would support it fully. However, HUNTING HIM DOWN and "shooting him 4 times in the face" is fucking mentally unstable and absolutely childish. There's nothing wrong with wanting this guy to die. I want people to die all the time, we all do, when we see tragedies like this. However, we shouldn't rely on emotional kneejerk reactions like that because that does not lead to a civilized and safe and reasoned society. That leads to chaos.
Again, the anger he's feeling is completely natural. We all feel it. However, 99% of us begin to think rationally at least a few days (or even weeks/years if it personally happened to us) but actually and truly having the want for someone to go through with it or actually going through with it IS equivocal to a homicidal maniac in my mind. If that makes me a douchebag call me Douchebag McDouchebaggington because I'm douching myself right now in that case. Because if someones reaction to a crime is "Let's go hunt that fucker down and fuck him up and shoot him in the face 4 times" even when presented with reason, they're mentally unstable and need to get their shit together.
EDIT: Again, the pleas to emotions. The difference between you and me is I'm pleaing to logic, and you're pleaing to kneejerk emotional reaction.
Who determines that sending him through the justice system is the logical choice? It will cost people money for the trial, and money to house and feed him until he can skip back out into society. The most logical solution would be to end his life and be done with it on the spot. Its not a kneejerk reaction at all. Im not saying I personally would kill him, but in true logical terms, how is it better to pay for his stay in prison, and provide him with a way out some years down the line?
Secondly, what is the difference between seeing the murders and shooting him right after before he was able to get away, or shooting him a week later? You just advocated the shooting of him on the spot, yet completely are against shooting him down the line. Thats not a logical statement at all.
EDIT 2: But let me seriously respond to that last line. Yes, I would think that. I would hate him with every fiber in my body I would hate that. Why? Because I hope one day for a justice system where hundreds of thousands of people are rehabilitated and can come back into society without having like a 75% return rate that we do today. I hope that we can turn "bad" people "good". I hope that if someone kills my family member, I can, in 30 years, go and shake his hand and have him break down in tears and apologize and go on and do something with his life. I would rather have that than put millions of people in jail and perpetuate violence with these false notions of "justice" and "revenge" and "punishment" that people assosciate with prison.
This statement makes me shake my head. You basically want a society where people can kill someone, goto jail and come back again normal. So basically the only deterrent to murdering people would be a ride in prison, with guaranteed release in the future? So now you have people in situations where they are homeless and fighting to eat and survive, and in turn can look to murdering someone for a place to stay, food to eat, and a guaranteed release sometime in the future, probably with an education or job training behind it. Hell, the way you put it, murder seems like a good way for these people to get ahead in the world.
This is such a ridiculous and fallacious argument on so many levels I can't even think where to start rebutting it - even if you intended to use tremendous amounts of hyperbole this still comes off as so incredibly stupid for reasons I shouldn't have to point out.
The judicial system should never be about revenge.
On June 16 2012 10:42 Freeze967 wrote: Hope they catch the guy :/
Hope they shoot the guy. Nothing would please me more then for the security company to figure out who it was before the police and track him down and put 4 rounds into his head.
I never understand people like you.
You're just as mentally dangerous and unstable in my mind as the guy who did this. I shouldn't even have to explain why. If you can't see it, you never will. How the fuck anyone can think this is a logical, civilized, fair, and even safe way to approach anything is beyond me.
That isn't justice, it's revenge and emotional knee-jerk reaction and only perpetuates more needless violence and shooting.
How about we fucking capture him and go through the works of the judicial system instead of your wild west justice shit.
EDIT: Condolences to families of the victims and I hope police get him soon or he turns himself in. Glad the situation was handled in an apparently decent way. Hope no one else gets hurt.
He's not mentally unstable or dangerous at all. Thats a terrible statement to make. The guy murdered 3 people in cold blood, what was civilized, fair or safe about that? If I was at the crime scene and had just witnessed the murders and shot and killed him, would I too be as mentally dangerous and unstable? If it were my family member he killed, or my wife, would you have the audacity to call me just as dangerous as him because inside me I want him dead?
There is most certainly an argument for the justice system, but the way you just stated your post makes you sound like a complete douche bag. How dare you call someone equal to a homicidal maniac like that. SMH
Of course what he did wasn't civilized. But guess who is: Us, and the justice system.
Yes, if you were at the crime scene and saw this going down you would have every reason to shoot that guy down in defense and I would commend you with every medal I could make up for you and would support it fully. However, HUNTING HIM DOWN and "shooting him 4 times in the face" is fucking mentally unstable and absolutely childish. There's nothing wrong with wanting this guy to die. I want people to die all the time, we all do, when we see tragedies like this. However, we shouldn't rely on emotional kneejerk reactions like that because that does not lead to a civilized and safe and reasoned society. That leads to chaos.
Again, the anger he's feeling is completely natural. We all feel it. However, 99% of us begin to think rationally at least a few days (or even weeks/years if it personally happened to us) but actually and truly having the want for someone to go through with it or actually going through with it IS equivocal to a homicidal maniac in my mind. If that makes me a douchebag call me Douchebag McDouchebaggington because I'm douching myself right now in that case. Because if someones reaction to a crime is "Let's go hunt that fucker down and fuck him up and shoot him in the face 4 times" even when presented with reason, they're mentally unstable and need to get their shit together.
EDIT: Again, the pleas to emotions. The difference between you and me is I'm pleaing to logic, and you're pleaing to kneejerk emotional reaction.
Who determines that sending him through the justice system is the logical choice? It will cost people money for the trial, and money to house and feed him until he can skip back out into society. The most logical solution would be to end his life and be done with it on the spot. Its not a kneejerk reaction at all. Im not saying I personally would kill him, but in true logical terms, how is it better to pay for his stay in prison, and provide him with a way out some years down the line?
Secondly, what is the difference between seeing the murders and shooting him right after before he was able to get away, or shooting him a week later? You just advocated the shooting of him on the spot, yet completely are against shooting him down the line. Thats not a logical statement at all.
EDIT 2: But let me seriously respond to that last line. Yes, I would think that. I would hate him with every fiber in my body I would hate that. Why? Because I hope one day for a justice system where hundreds of thousands of people are rehabilitated and can come back into society without having like a 75% return rate that we do today. I hope that we can turn "bad" people "good". I hope that if someone kills my family member, I can, in 30 years, go and shake his hand and have him break down in tears and apologize and go on and do something with his life. I would rather have that than put millions of people in jail and perpetuate violence with these false notions of "justice" and "revenge" and "punishment" that people assosciate with prison.
This statement makes me shake my head. You basically want a society where people can kill someone, goto jail and come back again normal. So basically the only deterrent to murdering people would be a ride in prison, with guaranteed release in the future? So now you have people in situations where they are homeless and fighting to eat and survive, and in turn can look to murdering someone for a place to stay, food to eat, and a guaranteed release sometime in the future, probably with an education or job training behind it. Hell, the way you put it, murder seems like a good way for these people to get ahead in the world.
This is such a ridiculous and fallacious argument on so many levels I can't even think where to start rebutting it - even if you intended to use tremendous amounts of hyperbole this still comes off as so incredibly stupid for reasons I shouldn't have to point out.
The judicial system should never be about revenge.
I can agree with that, and for the most part, my emotions are starting to get the best of me. I just thought it absurd that he would be willing to shake the hand of someone who could do that.
I am from Edmonton as well, and know 1 of the victims as an acquaintance from the past. I just think it's way too easy to sit there and say everyone deserves a second chance, when someone I know will never ever get that chance again. How dare someone deem me or anyone else on the same level as a triple murderer because I wish ill harm upon him. It's retarded to make such a statement without ever being in those shoes. This is my last post, I will grieve privately, and concede that hes right lets give this guy another chance someday........
Last edit: 2012-06-16 15:02:52
EvilTeletubby Baltimore, USA. June 16 2012 15:10. Posts 21020
Prison is not for rehabilitation. That's the reality. You'd have to be extremely naive to believe otherwise. As a 'institute to rehabilitate criminals'--on paper, or in the dictionary is the only place where that denotation truly stands. It's sad, but 90% of public prisons true (working)purpose is to isolate those who have commited crimes that basically have disrupted society/they can no longer be affored to live in our society. Statistics will point to the amount of rehabilitiation that happens; a laughably small percentage for the amount of money and labor that goes into those institutions. Lets not even get into how he can be found not guilty, be released on light charges, or prison breaks. Economically a death penalty makes clear sense. Ethically. . .debatable. Still, i wouldn't blame the family members left behind if they wanted him dead. Some hack commented that having such thoughts are pyschopathic or whatever--man did i get a kick out of that.
Last edit: 2012-06-16 16:34:53
Nazarid United States. June 16 2012 16:58. Posts 445
On June 16 2012 10:42 Freeze967 wrote: Hope they catch the guy :/
Hope they shoot the guy. Nothing would please me more then for the security company to figure out who it was before the police and track him down and put 4 rounds into his head.
yer post makes me sick. Do you use that brain you were given? or do you just enjoy spouting off ignorance? 2 people were put in the ground and you want to put another person in it? wow good awesome post man. Life is worth saving even if some one did kill others they should rot in a prison cell for years over just ending their life. I am so glad people with you're ignorance and stupidity are not in charge of the investigation.
User was temp banned for this post.
Randomize the world, and Life shall be given.
FirmTofu United States. June 16 2012 17:01. Posts 173
On June 16 2012 10:42 Freeze967 wrote: Hope they catch the guy :/
Hope they shoot the guy. Nothing would please me more then for the security company to figure out who it was before the police and track him down and put 4 rounds into his head.
I never understand people like you.
You're just as mentally dangerous and unstable in my mind as the guy who did this. I shouldn't even have to explain why. If you can't see it, you never will. How the fuck anyone can think this is a logical, civilized, fair, and even safe way to approach anything is beyond me.
That isn't justice, it's revenge and emotional knee-jerk reaction and only perpetuates more needless violence and shooting.
How about we fucking capture him and go through the works of the judicial system instead of your wild west justice shit.
EDIT: Condolences to families of the victims and I hope police get him soon or he turns himself in. Glad the situation was handled in an apparently decent way. Hope no one else gets hurt.
yeah your're right let's throw him in a crazy house for 20 yrs and just let him back on the streets and do whatever he wants
hey lets revive hitler and give him a fair trial too
User was temp banned for this post.
Last edit: 2012-06-16 17:14:03
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon Bonaparte
Mentalizor Denmark. June 16 2012 17:16. Posts 1510
On June 16 2012 10:42 Freeze967 wrote: Hope they catch the guy :/
Hope they shoot the guy. Nothing would please me more then for the security company to figure out who it was before the police and track him down and put 4 rounds into his head.
yer post makes me sick. Do you use that brain you were given? or do you just enjoy spouting off ignorance? 2 people were put in the ground and you want to put another person in it? wow good awesome post man. Life is worth saving even if some one did kill others they should rot in a prison cell for years over just ending their life. I am so glad people with you're ignorance and stupidity are not in charge of the investigation.
It would be in your best interest to use proper grammar and word conjugation in a sentence intended to deride another for supposed "ignorance and stupidity". More to the point, does your trumpeting of disgust at another individual's anger make you feel better about yourself? Sure, to bluntly state that one wishes for a murderer to be shot by vigilantes is knee-jerkish and vengeful, but if knee jerk reactions to cold blooded murder disgust you then be angry at the sun for rising.
"Hey colaboy, you made the same exact post to me in the 2012 election thread. I am so glad that TL has thread constables!"
LeSioN United States. June 16 2012 17:44. Posts 313
Man, you guys arguing over capital punishment need to grow up and take it elsewhere. This is a terrible tragedy. Besides being a U of A student, I knew one of the victims (Michelle Shegelski), and she was just an amazing woman, always friendly and bubbly and mischievous. She used to love running her fingers through my way too long hair while I tried to catch some shuteye sitting at tables in the university cafeteria. We had drifted apart over the last couple years, but this is just tragic. She only got married last April. I feel so bad for her family and new husband.
MrBitter United States. June 16 2012 18:04. Posts 2854
There's a lot of fragmented information, but here's what I can make out from reports and what I know about the area:
The shooter and three victims went into a security room behind an ABM to deposit money.
The shooter killed two coworkers and wounded another in the room.
The shooter locked the security room before leaving (officers had to break it down)
The last victim was found 'outside'. Logical reasoning suggests this person was likely taking care of the armored truck and was killed last.
The truck was caught on camera a few minutes later driving down a road.
The truck was found a few hours later outside the security company compound. abandoned and emptied. The shooter's personal vehicle was gone.
It seems the shooter made off with whatever was in the truck at the time. I'm guessing the room at the university was 'merely' where he saw an opening to go ahead.
My friend was the leader/trainer of the team and was killed in the security room (only woman on the crew, eyewitness reports mention a woman was pulled out first by officers). Just terrible.
There's a lot of fragmented information, but here's what I can make out from reports and what I know about the area:
The shooter and three victims went into a security room behind an ABM to deposit money.
The shooter killed two coworkers and wounded another in the room.
The shooter locked the security room before leaving (officers had to break it down)
The last victim was found 'outside'. Logical reasoning suggests this person was likely taking care of the armored truck and was killed last.
The truck was caught on camera a few minutes later driving down a road.
The truck was found a few hours later outside the security company compound. abandoned and emptied. The shooter's personal vehicle was gone.
It seems the shooter made off with whatever was in the truck at the time. I'm guessing the room at the university was 'merely' where he saw an opening to go ahead.
My friend was the leader/trainer of the team and was killed in the security room (only woman on the crew, eyewitness reports mention a woman was pulled out first by officers). Just terrible
.
Sorry for your loss. Thank you for the information. Stuff like this is just so tragic and mind boggling. :/
On June 16 2012 18:04 MrBitter wrote: Maybe I'm missing it, but is there any info on whether or not the suspect managed to steal anything?
How much money is worth killing 4 people?
Hmm, to that i'd have to answer : None.
Also for those who were debating the justice system, here's my take on it.
What is justice? To me, it is about making sure that the poeple who commited a crime don't do so again.
Then there's the severity of the crime to which you apply the severity of a judgment. Let's say someone robs a store. you can try to rehabilitate him so he doesn't do so again once released and if it fails, he does another robbery. Is that an affordable risk? in my mind, yes
Now there's violent crimes -> Rape, Murder, Torture... Can you afford the same risk as a lesser offence, of having the culprit do so again? Absolutely not, since these crimes destroy lives of the victims.
Now all that is taken with today's rehab methods, which are far from perfect. If in the future there is an improved method that GUARANTEES 100% rehabilitation succes, without using invasive methods (medication, or stuff like you'd see in a sci-fi show like genetic conditioning) then yes, that would become an acceptable procedure (despite poeple's inner anger wanting revenge, which i can understand).
Point is, Justice is about making sure that criminals don't become recidivists.
Reason United Kingdom. June 17 2012 01:34. Posts 2214
If I steal a loaf of bread do you want to give me community service, a prison sentence or execute me?
If I steal millions from the tax payer via fraud do you want to give me community service, a prison sentence or execute me?
If I am a mass murderer do you want to give me community service, a prison sentence or execute me?
The punishment should fit the crime, saying that people who want killers to be killed are crazy is nonsense, it's idiots that want to try to make "bad" people "good" that are responsible for the system we have.
Just because someone gets involved in drugs or steals stuff or gets into a fight at a club or some stupid stuff like this doesn't mean they are "bad" people, they just made poor decisions/choices or were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
People who murder/rape/etc people are bad people. You won't change them, and even if you could they don't deserve a second chance.
The same goes for repeat offenders, at some point you have to stop giving these people the benefit of the doubt and remove them from society permanently. How many times can someone break the law and go in and out of jail before you say enough is enough? Take them out back, that's what I say.
Last edit: 2012-06-17 01:42:14
Speak properly, and in as few words as you can, but always plainly; for the end of speech is not ostentation, but to be understood.
Store
Silidons United States. June 16 2012 17:13. Posts 2785
