 blackhole12 June 16 2012 05:58. Posts 42 | Profile # |
Hi, I have a question to all of you. My father and I had a debate about the tiebreak rulings. Currently it's something like points, goal difference, goals, FIFA ranking. If it ended up as to come depend on FIFA ranking, my father thought it would be fairer to let the team lowest on that list advance. His reasoning: the team lower on the ranking played relatively better to even tie with a higher ranked team, therefore deserve to advance more.
Does he make sense? Please decide. |
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| MajuGarzett Canada. June 16 2012 06:03. Posts 469 | Profile Blog # |
| They played better than they were expected to but assuming the tournament is designed to make competition be as high class as possible it makes more sense to take the higher ranked team. Last edit: 2012-06-16 06:04:28 |
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| KobraKay Portugal. June 16 2012 06:05. Posts 2072 | Profile # |
On June 16 2012 05:58 blackhole12 wrote:
Hi, I have a question to all of you. My father and I had a debate about the tiebreak rulings. Currently it's something like points, goal difference, goals, FIFA ranking. If it ended up as to come depend on FIFA ranking, my father thought it would be fairer to let the team lowest on that list advance. His reasoning: the team lower on the ranking played relatively better to even tie with a higher ranked team, therefore deserve to advance more.
Does he make sense? Please decide.
Is that true? I think the order is wrong in your post, plus you are missing the direct confrontation (which I believe is the first tie breaker after points) and I believe fair play is the last tie breaker. I dont remember seeing fifa ranking anywhere but I wasnt exactly looking, I just heard somewhere that the first would be direct match and the last one fair play :s
EDIT: I search for it and fifa ranking is not a tie breaker. You mean uefa coefficient probably? Anyway the last two tie break criteria are fair play and drawing lots none of which is needed since there are no tied teams in the uefa coefficient which is the second to last criteria so I guess your post makes a little bit more sense now.
Oh and no, I dont think your father is right...if it ever reaches that far, the better team should advance and not be penalized by a bad day/game since chances are it will produce better games down the road.Last edit: 2012-06-16 06:10:39 |
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| GeorgeH United Kingdom. June 17 2012 01:08. Posts 190 | Profile # |
FIFA rankings don't really mean anything as the rank is determined by performance over four years, so it may not be a reflection of how good a team is right now. The current system for tie breaking is just about fair to be honest:
- Head-to-head record; then
- Goal difference in head-to-head; then
- Goals scored in head-to-head; then
- Draw straws (I think???)
With the exception of the last criterion, the criteria generally favours the better team out of the two and goes through based on results obtained in the tournament. What your father is suggesting is not only that teams will go through based on past performances outside of the tournament, but the historically worse team ends up going through? Sorry, but that does not make sense at all. |
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| Klyberess Sweden. June 17 2012 01:16. Posts 317 | Profile # |
| I'll agree with the poster above that a winner should be chosen randomly rather than due to FIFA or UEFA ranking (favouring the lower ranked team is just as bad as the other way around, IMO). Perhaps number of yellows/reds should be counted before the coin toss. Last edit: 2012-06-17 01:17:49 |
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| nayumi Vietnam. June 17 2012 01:24. Posts 4692 | Profile Blog # |
On June 17 2012 01:16 Klyberess wrote:
I'll agree with the poster above that a winner should be chosen randomly rather than due to FIFA or UEFA ranking (favouring the lower ranked team is just as bad as the other way around, IMO). Perhaps number of yellows/reds should be counted before the coin toss.
Yea there is another indicator before the lucky draw called fair play, which I assume the number of cards and fouls committed by each team ... |
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| Mafe Germany. June 17 2012 02:16. Posts 1414 | Profile # |
wikipedia:
"Tie-breaking criteria
If two or more teams are equal on points on completion of the group matches, the following criteria are applied to determine the rankings (according to paragraphs 8.07 and 8.08 of the regulations, and amendment to 8.07 adopted by the UEFA Executive Committee):
1. Higher number of points obtained in the matches played between the teams in question;
2. Superior goal difference resulting from the matches played between the teams in question (if more than two teams finish equal on points);
3. Higher number of goals scored in the matches played between the teams in question (if more than two teams finish equal on points);
4. If, after having applied criteria 1 to 3 to more than two teams, two teams still have an equal ranking, criteria 1 to 3 are reapplied exclusively to the matches between the two teams in question to determine the final rankings of the two teams. If this procedure does not lead to a decision, criteria 5 to 10 apply in the order given;
5. Superior goal difference in all group matches;
6. Higher number of goals scored in all group matches;
7. If two teams which are tied in all criteria 1 to 6 play their last group match against each other (i.e., the result is a draw and the two teams have the same number of points, goal difference and goals scored), and provided no other teams within the group have the same number of points, the ranking of the two teams in question is determined by penalty shoot-out. Otherwise, criteria 8 to 10 apply in the order given;
8. Position in the UEFA national team coefficient ranking system;
9. Fair play conduct of the teams (final tournament);
10. Drawing of lots.
Note: As all teams have different UEFA national team coefficient, the last two tie-breakers (fair play conduct and drawing of lots) will never be applied in this tournament."
This because the op posted wrong tiebreak rules (and we WILL talk about them a lot the next days). Also your father's argument of taking the lower ranked team does not make sense. Yes, the lower ranked team might have played better than expected, but the UEFA-coefficient (FIFA-ranking being irrelevant here) is based on recent results (qualification and finals of WC/EC). Essentially taking the lower ranked team would mean you would punish the team that showed good results recently; and also it would give teams an incentive to throw games in the qualification to purposely lower their coefficient. I think it is fair to say a the better team should advance, and if one could not order teams by their results in the last 2 weeks, I believe it is fair to separate them by their results of recent years.Last edit: 2012-06-17 02:29:36 |
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| Sanctimonius United Kingdom. June 17 2012 02:39. Posts 846 | Profile # |
Gah not a fan of head-to-head record before goal difference. you can out-score an opponent and end up with ten more goals but if they beat you 1-0 then they progress instead of you.
It changes from tournament to tournament, iirc. |
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| GeorgeH United Kingdom. June 17 2012 03:04. Posts 190 | Profile # |
On June 17 2012 02:39 Sanctimonius wrote:
Gah not a fan of head-to-head record before goal difference. you can out-score an opponent and end up with ten more goals but if they beat you 1-0 then they progress instead of you.
It changes from tournament to tournament, iirc.
Results always have priority over goals in football. |
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| nojok France. June 17 2012 03:43. Posts 1986 | Profile # |
On June 17 2012 03:04 GeorgeH wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 02:39 Sanctimonius wrote:
Gah not a fan of head-to-head record before goal difference. you can out-score an opponent and end up with ten more goals but if they beat you 1-0 then they progress instead of you.
It changes from tournament to tournament, iirc.
Results always have priority over goals in football.
Indeed, we've seen England play and also Chelsea.
Jokes aside, I totally agree with you. |
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| -Archangel- Croatia. June 17 2012 19:39. Posts 3612 | Profile # |
On June 17 2012 02:39 Sanctimonius wrote:
Gah not a fan of head-to-head record before goal difference. you can out-score an opponent and end up with ten more goals but if they beat you 1-0 then they progress instead of you.
It changes from tournament to tournament, iirc.
Football is about winning, not scoring more goals. |
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| gasmeter United Kingdom. June 17 2012 21:46. Posts 211 | Profile # |
On June 17 2012 19:39 -Archangel- wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 02:39 Sanctimonius wrote:
Gah not a fan of head-to-head record before goal difference. you can out-score an opponent and end up with ten more goals but if they beat you 1-0 then they progress instead of you.
It changes from tournament to tournament, iirc.
Football is about winning, not scoring more goals.
True.
The tie-breaker is definitely head-to-head record first. We saw this last night with Greece advancing ahead of Russia because they had defeated them 1-0. |
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| sinii England. June 17 2012 21:58. Posts 788 | Profile # |
On June 17 2012 03:43 nojok wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 03:04 GeorgeH wrote:
On June 17 2012 02:39 Sanctimonius wrote:
Gah not a fan of head-to-head record before goal difference. you can out-score an opponent and end up with ten more goals but if they beat you 1-0 then they progress instead of you.
It changes from tournament to tournament, iirc.
Results always have priority over goals in football.
Indeed, we've seen England play and also Chelsea. Jokes aside, I totally agree with you.
What's funny about your post is that England have scored more goals then France so far in the Euros. :D |
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| Ancient-Hunter Korea (South). June 18 2012 01:12. Posts 142 | Profile # |
I think GD first (as it is in the World Cup) is better as its more indicative of a teams overall performance in group stage.
Anyways can someone tell me how the dutch can advance tonight? If they beat Portugal and the Germans beat the Danes then Portugal/Denmark/Netherlands will all be tied at 3 points each.
who goes through? |
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| don_kyuhote June 18 2012 01:18. Posts 1875 | Profile Blog # |
On June 18 2012 01:12 Ancient-Hunter wrote:
I think GD first (as it is in the World Cup) is better as its more indicative of a teams overall performance in group stage.
Anyways can someone tell me how the dutch can advance tonight? If they beat Portugal and the Germans beat the Danes then Portugal/Denmark/Netherlands will all be tied at 3 points each.
who goes through?
Since it would be a three - way tie, I guess it comes down to goal differential.
Netherlands has to beat Portugal by at least 2 goals
Last edit: 2012-06-18 01:24:13 |
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| Stimp South Africa. June 18 2012 02:18. Posts 750 | Profile # |
On June 17 2012 21:58 sinii wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 03:43 nojok wrote:
On June 17 2012 03:04 GeorgeH wrote:
On June 17 2012 02:39 Sanctimonius wrote:
Gah not a fan of head-to-head record before goal difference. you can out-score an opponent and end up with ten more goals but if they beat you 1-0 then they progress instead of you.
It changes from tournament to tournament, iirc.
Results always have priority over goals in football.
Indeed, we've seen England play and also Chelsea. Jokes aside, I totally agree with you.
What's funny about your post is that England have scored more goals then France so far in the Euros. :D
And chelsea scored more than barcelona. |
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| empty.bottle June 18 2012 06:18. Posts 627 | Profile # |
On June 17 2012 02:39 Sanctimonius wrote:
Gah not a fan of head-to-head record before goal difference. you can out-score an opponent and end up with ten more goals but if they beat you 1-0 then they progress instead of you.
It changes from tournament to tournament, iirc.
Dont worry World Cup is goal difference first.Last edit: 2012-06-18 06:18:58 |
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