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| shadogi United States. June 16 2012 06:41. Posts 194 | Profile # |
FORWARD: If this has been discussed at length, please point me in the right direction. I didn't find anything when I searched.
Currently, my ZvP win rate has been abysmally low (my late game is terrible, but I can hold most all-ins),so I've been evaluating the way that I play and I came to an interesting question: "Why do Zerg go an early 3 base against Protoss?". I honestly couldn't answer it aside from, "we can get away with it". So, the question becomes, is this the best way to play? Would going 2 base for a while be better?
Thanks!
If this question is too vague, let me know! |
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| jinorazi Korea (South). June 16 2012 06:44. Posts 3971 | Profile # |
On June 16 2012 06:41 shadogi wrote:
FORWARD: If this has been discussed at length, please point me in the right direction. I didn't find anything when I searched.
Currently, my ZvP win rate has been abysmally low (my late game is terrible, but I can hold most all-ins),so I've been evaluating the way that I play and I came to an interesting question: "Why do Zerg go an early 3 base against Protoss?". I honestly couldn't answer it aside from, "we can get away with it". So, the question becomes, is this the best way to play? Would going 2 base for a while be better?
Thanks!
If this question is too vague, let me know!
its usually done when protoss FFE, they can do little to do something against your 3rd. so zerg gets 3rd for superior econ for mid-late game. it isn't also bad to stay on 2base and punish protoss ie. banebust. but protoss can defend well with forcefields so i think most zerg opt for 3rd and go for larger/better army. |
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| Facultyadjutant Sweden. June 16 2012 06:51. Posts 1159 | Profile Blog # |
We had a terrible time holding stargate play from denying our third, so someone had a stroke of genius and just put it earlier, meaning we had time for spores/queens
Edit: We were getting a third anyways, but at a later time because we had to play with gateway opening in mind, so gas investment in speed shot up the third where it could be downplayed by stargate play.
Edit2: YES, it's great and puts us in a favorable spot vs ffe, but it was a evolution to a problem of zerg's third getting denied. Not purely ''Econ econ''. We already know it's good ''econ wise'' but it wasn't op's questionLast edit: 2012-06-16 07:35:17 |
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| FortuneSyn Brazil. June 16 2012 07:03. Posts 1768 | Profile Blog # |
| An early third means you get more minerals. if you delay your third, you will get gas instead of minerals. The preferred ZvP midgame at the moment is mass roach, so early third is preference. Mineral focused early game means you can get your 4th macro hatch up earlier, and drone from 50-75 or whatever faster. |
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| ysnake Bosnia-Herzegovina. June 16 2012 07:04. Posts 194 | Profile # |
More bases=bigger economy, more Larvae, more Queens, consequently, more units and faster production of units, as you will most likely lose a lot of your tier 1/1.5 (Roaches/Lings) in numbers while making army trades (sniping Sentries, Immortals, Colossi, Archons), then you want to progress into your ultimate composition (Brood Lord, Infestor, Corruptor) with some Roaches/Infested Terrans as fodder.
Basically, take a look at Stephano's 12min max build. He does an army trade, denies a third, entire army wiped, swarm again, entire army gets wiped, swarm again, repeat, repeat and the Protoss can't keep up with your production. That's why the Protoss want to deny your third as well. |
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| gnasher United States. June 16 2012 07:23. Posts 4 | Profile # |
| I think it is actually necessary to some extent. There are other possible openers like 2-base Infestor or 2-base Muta that are viable as well. The main point is that the protoss will be very greedy as well behind a FFE, and it is hard for you to punish that. If you try to make earlier units, and delay your mining, then when they hit with a 6-gate, you won't have enough resources to defend it well. So instead of army, you should focus on econ or tech. In general, you want to always consider holding off a 6-gate as a test of the build, and 2-base Infestor can probably hold that off by using a Tech advantage. 3-base opening allow you to be just as greedy as the P, so when the 6-gate hits, you'll have more than enough army to deal with his forces. |
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 Belial88 United States. June 16 2012 07:25. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
You need 3 base to be ahead economically from 2 base toss, it's that simple. People started going 3 base once zergs realized you could any all-in with it, around the time losira proved it against trickster gsl july code s ro32 dual sight, and held his straight up 6 gate +1 8:30 all-in with fast third play on hatch tech.
If you go 2 base, and say toss does a 2 base all-in, toss will still have map control, and he can potentially just take his third faster than you and it's gg. But if you go 3 base, toss will momentarilty have map control, but your third is way ahead of his, and you will have such a large econ that you generally are the one denying toss' third.
it also means way more econ after about 8:00.
also, zergs learned you could just go fast third against even gateway expand play, and play just as if it was FFE (with the exception of needing to get gas for speed asap, against gateway openers, from expands to 4 gates). So protoss stopped going gateway play because it was too far behind and didn't really have any advantage over FFE, while zergs learned they were safe to take a fast third if toss ever expands.
But yea, 'we can get away with it' would be the short answer. It's so much stronger economically. There are some cute 2 base semi all-ins you can do like infestor timing or muta timing, but these can be countered (and blind countered by robo/stargate respectively), but you end up behind if you don't do damage and toss tend to know how to handle these nowadays pretty easily and then the same problem occurs, toss is taking a third at the same time you are. |
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| ixi.genocide United States. June 16 2012 07:29. Posts 961 | Profile Blog # |
On June 16 2012 06:41 shadogi wrote:
FORWARD: If this has been discussed at length, please point me in the right direction. I didn't find anything when I searched.
Currently, my ZvP win rate has been abysmally low (my late game is terrible, but I can hold most all-ins),so I've been evaluating the way that I play and I came to an interesting question: "Why do Zerg go an early 3 base against Protoss?". I honestly couldn't answer it aside from, "we can get away with it". So, the question becomes, is this the best way to play? Would going 2 base for a while be better?
Thanks!
If this question is too vague, let me know!
Zerg goes 3 base because it is the best advantage vs a FFE. The protoss can't do anything against the 3 base Z aside from what is considered standard now; If they go for a quick third as well you just mass roach/ling and attack, if they attack you you get out your defense in time because of their delayed wg tech.
Going two base doesn't really have an advantage outside of earlier lair tech. Because of that I wouldn't go 2 base unless i was planning on doing infester ling double expo ala Destiny style. |
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| Nourek Germany. June 16 2012 08:19. Posts 162 | Profile # |
On June 16 2012 07:25 Belial88 wrote:
You need 3 base to be ahead economically from 2 base toss, it's that simple. People started going 3 base once zergs realized you could any all-in with it, around the time losira proved it against trickster gsl july code s ro32 dual sight, and held his straight up 6 gate +1 8:30 all-in with fast third play on hatch tech.
I just rewatched that, it was Ro8 in GSL July. Losira actually went 16g/15p and got ling speed while trickster went for a 7 gate with +1. But yes, he held the attack and the 3 base vs FFE has been developed further since then.
I agree with the point that the very early timing of the 3rd was probably due to stargate play. It's much easier to defend an existing third vs VR/Phoenix due to creep for spores and queen micro than it is to take it later.Last edit: 2012-06-16 08:20:43 |
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| K3Nyy United States. June 16 2012 08:40. Posts 1710 | Profile # |
Because being as greedy as possible without taking risks is the most optimal way to play. If you can hold timing pushes on both 2 bases and 3 bases, then obviously people would prefer to go 3 bases since it provides more economy.
There are some 2 base ZvP builds like Infestor or Muta but they aren't particularly strong so it's better to play 3hatch. |
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| Bygone United States. June 16 2012 08:44. Posts 58 | Profile # |
| I could give pros and cons of both two and three base play...but in the end it comes down to "stephano and drg do it, it must be right" sadly |
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| tehemperorer United States. June 16 2012 12:05. Posts 2180 | Profile Blog # |
On June 16 2012 08:44 Bygone wrote:
I could give pros and cons of both two and three base play...but in the end it comes down to "stephano and drg do it, it must be right" sadly
It's cause of Stargate after FFE actually, and is around a year old, before DRG started winning anything. |
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| Jebediah Germany. June 16 2012 12:35. Posts 105 | Profile # |
On June 16 2012 08:44 Bygone wrote:
I could give pros and cons of both two and three base play...but in the end it comes down to "stephano and drg do it, it must be right" sadly
I would actually like to hear the pros of two base play, because I can't really think of any. The only advantage I can think of is faster midgame tech, but that almost always leads to gimmicky play which heavily relies on mistakes/lack of scouting from your opponent. |
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| Zrana United Kingdom. June 16 2012 12:42. Posts 674 | Profile Blog # |
On June 16 2012 08:44 Bygone wrote:
I could give pros and cons of both two and three base play...but in the end it comes down to "stephano and drg do it, it must be right" sadly
Correlation does not imply causation! |
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| ETisME Hong Kong. June 16 2012 12:45. Posts 4844 | Profile Blog # |
3 bases because:
it is safe to do so, take advantage of the extremely defensive powering toss.
3 base economy is much stronger than 2 base, even with same drone count.
Gas is crucial in ZvP |
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| Niska June 16 2012 12:59. Posts 28 | Profile # |
| I think it is important to note as well that if you are playing a macro game and fe as a zerg your econ at the 4-6 min mark will be able to support another hatch, meaning you will be sitting on 300 minerals unless you build one whether you like it or not. Some choose to do a macro hatch vs 2 base some don't depends on map and such. Last edit: 2012-06-16 13:00:09 |
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| Flonomenalz Nigeria. June 16 2012 13:17. Posts 2862 | Profile # |
On June 16 2012 08:44 Bygone wrote:
I could give pros and cons of both two and three base play...but in the end it comes down to "stephano and drg do it, it must be right" sadly
No, it doesn't come down to that at all.
There are no pros for 2 base play that outweigh the cons it holds against a FFE'ing Protoss. The faster tech isn't worth it. 2 base muta can be blind countered, or handled easily on 2 base vs 2 base. 2 base infestor... doesn't work against Toss unless they're already doing an all in due to 2 base colossus flat out destroying it (due to NP nerf). There is absolutely no reason to go 2 base play against Toss unless you know EXACTLY what the Toss is doing (like say, rushing for colosuss and you punish with muta) or you plan on doing something gimmicky (like destinys 2 base infestor push, or nydus).
Being as greedy as possible while holding with the bare minimum is what this game is about, and even more so what Zerg is about. 3 base vs FFE is textbook definition of that.
Not to mention Nestea and Losira innovated it WAY before stephano and drg were doing it. Stephano and DRG simply refined it to a very high level. |
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| mahO France. June 16 2012 18:52. Posts 268 | Profile # |
On June 16 2012 06:41 shadogi wrote:
FORWARD: If this has been discussed at length, please point me in the right direction. I didn't find anything when I searched.
Currently, my ZvP win rate has been abysmally low (my late game is terrible, but I can hold most all-ins),so I've been evaluating the way that I play and I came to an interesting question: "Why do Zerg go an early 3 base against Protoss?". I honestly couldn't answer it aside from, "we can get away with it". So, the question becomes, is this the best way to play? Would going 2 base for a while be better?
Thanks!
If this question is too vague, let me know!
I've been hesitating a lot on that subject myself (master on EU), since I kinda felt too open for the 5 / 6 classics all ins I met on ladder while going 3 hatch stephano's style, as I'm not an agressive player, the roach max out never seduced me, it just felt random and counting on opponent's fail at defending it.
If you stay on 2 bases vs FFE, it has to be with a clear goal. Choices :
-upgraded lings + infestors + drop (Sheth build discussed on a day9 daily, watch the daily, cant remember of the number but you'll find it typing Sheth on his site) but to be successful, this style of play requires a shitload of multi tasking and good decision making, so really far from a freewin build.
-Mutas, all in or not, heavy upgraded lings or not, some blings mixed in there, fast transition to infestors, thats up to you
-Fast fast infestors and fast tech to hive, basically a really safe version of a lategame brood army, lower econ, but can open some timing attacks windows, especially if the toss goes greedy, which he shouldnt seing no 3rd base.
-Some nydus or drop all in
In general, you have to remember one huuuuge thing when you dont go 3 bases : he will be scared, and will (if decent) prepare for all ins, which can be really good when you're actually going for fast hive with few infestors and take a 3rd and 4th in the midgame. Frankly, it's just so hard to decide, 3 bases are a must when you're at pro level, they can pretty much hold everything, but I myself hated the feeling of "ah fuck, I thought you were going blink, my bad, bad scouting gg" or simply get over run by a 7 gate, or even fast 4 gate +1 because of a supply block or missed inject / bad spine placement etc etc.
For me I kind of take the 2 bases opening as a good "weird build" to surprise people in best of 3, or simply play a little more calmly and relaxed, and it's also a way to "get confident enough" to always go 3 hatches then, even if you're not practicing the build you're looking for, you're putting yourself in a good mindset for future ladder sessions. Loosing some games 3 hatch can sometime be really frustrating as you can just get really crushed for a simple mistake, but thats what it takes to get a great econ advantage if you scout / defend properly, and deny his 3rd. Gotta say tho, the Sheth' ling infestor drop won me many games, and it really made the match up fun for me again, people should try it more often, protoss are never used to it
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| Belial88 United States. June 16 2012 18:58. Posts 5217 | Profile Blog # |
With good macro (something I couldnt do around 800 points but i learned as i got up to 1.1k points) you should be able to just make enough to hold any all-in. You should be making enough roach/ling to deny any dishonest third and force lots of cannons or a third taken at a reasonable time instead of stupid cheesy fast, the same roach/ling you made to survive any possible pressure, and with your overseer you should be seeing if toss has just 4-5 gates + tech and clearly plans to expand, or has 6+ gates and tech and is clearly all-inning. The latest 2 base all-in anyways is immortal/sentry all-in that pushes out around 9:30ish, so if toss is moving out and aggressively putting out pylons you should know right away he's all-inning instead of taking a third.
i mean same as telling 4 gate vs 3 gate sentry expand - he's either defensively posturing for that expo, or pushing forward aggressively. |
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| gingerfluffmuff Austria. June 16 2012 19:25. Posts 596 | Profile # |
On June 16 2012 18:52 mahO wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 06:41 shadogi wrote:
FORWARD: If this has been discussed at length, please point me in the right direction. I didn't find anything when I searched.
Currently, my ZvP win rate has been abysmally low (my late game is terrible, but I can hold most all-ins),so I've been evaluating the way that I play and I came to an interesting question: "Why do Zerg go an early 3 base against Protoss?". I honestly couldn't answer it aside from, "we can get away with it". So, the question becomes, is this the best way to play? Would going 2 base for a while be better?
Thanks!
If this question is too vague, let me know!
I've been hesitating a lot on that subject myself (master on EU), since I kinda felt too open for the 5 / 6 classics all ins I met on ladder while going 3 hatch stephano's style, as I'm not an agressive player, the roach max out never seduced me, it just felt random and counting on opponent's fail at defending it. If you stay on 2 bases vs FFE, it has to be with a clear goal. Choices : -upgraded lings + infestors + drop (Sheth build discussed on a day9 daily, watch the daily, cant remember of the number but you'll find it typing Sheth on his site) but to be successful, this style of play requires a shitload of multi tasking and good decision making, so really far from a freewin build. -Mutas, all in or not, heavy upgraded lings or not, some blings mixed in there, fast transition to infestors, thats up to you -Fast fast infestors and fast tech to hive, basically a really safe version of a lategame brood army, lower econ, but can open some timing attacks windows, especially if the toss goes greedy, which he shouldnt seing no 3rd base. -Some nydus or drop all in In general, you have to remember one huuuuge thing when you dont go 3 bases : he will be scared, and will (if decent) prepare for all ins, which can be really good when you're actually going for fast hive with few infestors and take a 3rd and 4th in the midgame. Frankly, it's just so hard to decide, 3 bases are a must when you're at pro level, they can pretty much hold everything, but I myself hated the feeling of "ah fuck, I thought you were going blink, my bad, bad scouting gg" or simply get over run by a 7 gate, or even fast 4 gate +1 because of a supply block or missed inject / bad spine placement etc etc. For me I kind of take the 2 bases opening as a good "weird build" to surprise people in best of 3, or simply play a little more calmly and relaxed, and it's also a way to "get confident enough" to always go 3 hatches then, even if you're not practicing the build you're looking for, you're putting yourself in a good mindset for future ladder sessions. Loosing some games 3 hatch can sometime be really frustrating as you can just get really crushed for a simple mistake, but thats what it takes to get a great econ advantage if you scout / defend properly, and deny his 3rd. Gotta say tho, the Sheth' ling infestor drop won me many games, and it really made the match up fun for me again, people should try it more often, protoss are never used to it
IMO people in Masters League shouldnt watch day9 and get builds from random NA "Pros".
I can really understand your frustration, cause i have the same problems against P. But when watching the replays afterwards from my POV, i often catch myself with bad OL placement, lazy lings chilling at one tower and so on. When i am playing, i give my p opponent way too much credit. Switching the POV in the replay often times reveals they have expanded of 1 cannon, 1 berserker and 1 sentry with no units for the next 3 minutes -___-.
With more self esteem and better scouting i think going 3 base is the only option against good p opponents. For best of 3s i think going 6 pool now and then is better, cause the p opponent is forced into 1 base. Going gimmicky 2 base timings is depending on the p to screw up. Honestly i cant see any reason for fear on his part, cause he got his early expo and everything goes as planned for him.
Disclaimer: Obviously i play Zerg in Bronze with 3 games played in Season 7. I am awesome :D |
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