[H] ZvP low ground cannon rush

Hello, Diamond zerg here
I played this match on antiga, when my opponent saw that my pool was close to the edge he decided to start a cannon rush, i guess his goal was to kill it. I don't really know how to react, i sent drones down, but he denied surface with pylons and terrain, so i coludn't focus down to death the cannon. I tried chasing probes, well, didn't work too well, so i made a queen + spine and started taking care of the cannons. At this point i know Protoss spent a lot of money for the cannon rush, and i feel like there should be a way to exploit this, but i don't know how. I try to go allin with roach ling, but the guy made immortals, so i fail. Meh... I didn't hold the cannon rush well either... lost a lot of mining time and drones. Dunno, i really need pointers here.
Thanks in advance, Here's the Replay

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=265430

CookieMonsta02 United States. June 16 2012 22:47. Posts 37

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I do this sometimes vs Zerg's when I can get away with it, so I can tell you how they stop me when I fail:

- Overlord placement over your natural is a must so that you can see as soon as the pylon goes down. At this point you need to pull enough drones to kill the pylon - make a few lings to help as well
- If a probe is near your nat, you should have a drone chasing it anyway so he cant deny your expansion. This is key to keeping him from making a wall using mineral patches + pylons.
- Get a queen asap - the range is just too sick and you can easily take out the cannon + probe with a queen.
- Perhaps the most simple solution - dont place your pool near the edge of your base.

The other thing you need to watch for (which i do sometimes when i'm feeling cheesy) is a pylon wall at the bottom of your ramp to keep you trapped in. the P can keep canceling one pylon and skirt up with a probe to get high ground vision or even drop cannons in your main once enough have been placed on the low ground to cover him. I've seen some people set a drone to patrol the bottom of the ramp back and forth to prevent this.

Hope this helps.

CajunMan United States. June 16 2012 23:05. Posts 801

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I didn't see your rep I'm at work but a good build is 14 pool 15 hatch and just being careful of watching the probe. if he is being sneaky keep a drone nearby to block for even a second at ramp you should be able to get lings out in time for most things that aren't on your ramp. Also learn to drone drill if he blocks your ramp could save you. But if he does get the block off on not your ramp like you now know change your pool position and just try to expand somewhere else your lings should be out in time to stop further expos from being cannoned. Hopefully if you avoid enough dmg and cancel your natural before its killed you can just double expo and cost him more than it did for you so you come out ok still

ItsTheFark United States. June 17 2012 01:46. Posts 154

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First: Always ALWAYS have an overlord over your natural in ZvP's. Second, skip the natural, go for your 3rd, get a spinecrawler on the high ground. Third, try to kill the probe.

Mauzel United States. June 17 2012 02:12. Posts 114

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If they do a cannon rush and you decide not to play a macro game you can follow up with the following:

A)Rush to lair
-Break down pylons with a spine crawler by spreading creep to ledge. This can be done either with creep tumors or with overlords poopin' creep

Then you follow up with
a)super fast 1-base-mutalisk. Make lings once you've saturated your main. Get speed after you've used all of it on your first round of mutalisks. Deny any ninja expansions with your speedlings while you harass as much as possible with your mutas. Expand once the natural is clear (or double expand if it's possible) and transition to a macro game.

b)super fast 1-base-infestor. Same concept except with infestors. You'll probably want to eventually transition to roach after you've expanded. Get nydus or overlord drop and have a slow OL ready to drop in their base once your infestors are ready. GET BURROW.

B) Break it with roaches and try to go kill him. I don't like this that much... It's fairly easy to scout and they can probably finish cannons in time to defend your attack.

The best way to hold it off is to build spines equal to the number of cannons he has built (probably max 3 spine crawlers). Build an extra queen as well. Try to deny vision on the highground with lings/drones/queens. Once your spine crawlers are done, put 2 near the ramp so that they can immediately snipe any probe that tries to run up, essentially neutralizing the cannons on the low ground. Kill the cannons on the lowground with your queen / extra spine crawler. Transition to macro game (you should be ahead if you haven't lost any drones.)

You can also just try to straight up kill the cannons by building an equal number of spine crawlers to cannons, then tank with your queen(s) while the spine crawlers root. Make sure to save at least one queen for injects.

You don't need an overlord over your natural.

Freeze967 United States. June 17 2012 02:14. Posts 211

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If you can directly target the cannon remember that if you start attacking from near when it first starts, it takes 4 drones to take it down. If he is cannon rushing the natural, especially on a map like antiga just remember that you can cancel and take the third. If he's using that little spot where 1 pylon completely covers 1 cannon, just make sure he doesn't get high ground vision and you will be fine.

Hope this helps!

StaraCroft Austria. June 17 2012 02:42. Posts 165

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Don't put your pool there. :D
Once you see that type of cannon rush on antiga: take your gas. He will always try to take it for vision.
You already had that once the pylon fell and the lings came out. all you had to do was to put the probes back on minerals and let the zerglings kill the cannon, but even without that you were fine. You lost because you did a dumb roach all-in a gainst a 2-base toss... most likely because you were mad. Don't get mad. Take your third and be happy.

Kaitlin United States. June 17 2012 02:43. Posts 2192

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Don't let him steal your gas for high ground vision and don't place pool where it can be hit from low ground. Preventative maintenance to start with.

Destiny United States. June 17 2012 21:53. Posts 234

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After you put your pool down (if you're opening 14p) PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE patrol a drone at the bottom of your ramp (to prevent 3 pylon wall-off) OR just follow the probe/search for the probe if it isn't there.

I know a lot of people (professionals and casters alike) recommend simply keeping an overlord over your natural, BUT THIS IS INCREDIBLY INEFFECTIVE. If he decides to either 3-pylon block your ramp, or build pylons in such a way that he builds 2-3 and can make a cannon inside that's completely protected by the pylons, it's pretty much 100% auto-loss for you.

To achieve perfection is to sacrifice growth.

Andromedan June 18 2012 07:23. Posts 61

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some people opt for 11p, not to directly stop a cannon rush, but lings are out sooner, and regardless of pylon block or not, the hatch will go down at the exact same time. also auto loss for nexus 1st. 14p is standard, toss generally throws down 3 pylons for 3 pylon block at 17, so send ur drone down to patrol the ramp at 16. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038, the opener section, how to deal wth cannon rush)
i always follow the probe the moment i see it (i'm paranoid), as well as patrolling my ramp on 16. once the probe is out of the main/natural, the patroling drone at the ramp goes down to gather the farthest patch away from the main at the natural. this way, if there's a 2nd probe trying to get a cannon behind the mineral line, i can scout that.
hope it helps.

master level zerg looking for practice partners. AndromedaOD.460

Priest214 Japan. June 24 2012 16:33. Posts 29

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P.S. I think once you see a pylon go down, you should move a drone or two in the locations where they will most likely need to pass through or place cannons/pylons, and put them on hold position. This makes it hard for them to maneuver around and also blocks the placement. :D

Mauzel, thanks for the insight. Now I'm ready to be cannoned! :D

Last edit: 2012-06-24 16:36:59

Starcraft is not a game, it is not a hobby, it is a way of life.

Noritzu United States. June 24 2012 17:53. Posts 11

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haven't had a chance to watch the rep but will do it and update this post.

The first step as said is the overlord positioned. if a toss drops a pylon somewhere in your natural that isnt blocking your hatch you need to be ready to respond immediately. step one is if they place a pylon in a place that blocks surface area of cannons they would place next to it, put drones in hold position in those spots (usually on either side of the pylon). that was if they continue this rush they do it in a much worse position. If it continues then it requires 4 drones to stop a cannon from finishing, pull even more if you got there late (up to 6 may be needed if it is already half formed before you notice it). I recommend pulling extra drones anyway just because ive never met a toss who cannon rushes who only puts one cannon.

Also keep an eye on the probe, as the maps are getting bigger it becomes easier to sneak the cannons in (condemned ridge has a huge natural and ive learned the hard way on that). sometimes if your lucky you get get two drones to pin it against the pylon or mineral patch and if they arent paying close attention pick it off before they mineral walk it away.

The real issues are certain maps and the pylon wall. Certain maps can be a real pain dealing with cannons just because of map terrain, Metalopolis was an absolute nightmare because they could wall off behind the mineral line using two pylons and then cannon. Im sure others can be done in this fashion but i cant think of them atm. If you can stop that from happening great, but its not easy to do. The important aspect of this is not to let them have high ground vision. take your gas closest to that side so they cant steal it, and id even recommend dropping your first 25 queen energy into a creep tumor to deny any pylon play (optional depending how bad they want to push this). from there your queen and a spine can pick that off while you have been taking your third instead of the natural.

as for the pylon wall of the only thing you really can do is keep that drone patrolling at 16. When you said out your expansion drone, send a second with it. It may help you secure the hatch with some micro, and then the other one can patrol your ramp. If this pylon wall gets off i feel its game over against any halfway decent opponent. Your options basically become attempting a 1 base play ( I disagree with 1 base muta or infestor, you just lack the gas to get any decent numbers of them), breaking down the wall with fast roaches and move into a macro game where your way behind, or quit. Honestly if i screw up and let this happen i usually try a 1 base roach/queen nydus attack and pray they mess up and leave a hole i can slip my nydus in.

Asolmanx Italy. July 02 2012 22:51. Posts 127

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I'm bumping this tread instead of making a new one because the topic is more or less the same, with the exception that this time i got the natural cannon rushed from the low ground, and at the same time i couldn't get my third because of those cannons. What should i do? Should i make lings and try to break it? Should i go allin? Should i make roaches? Maybe banelings?
I'm really lost and a little mad, Here's the replay. HELP

http://drop.sc/212715

Xxazn4lyfe51xX United States. July 02 2012 23:50. Posts 261

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People need to realize that he's not asking for help on getting pylon blocked at his natural and or cannoned there... He's saying that his pool got killed by a cannon rush from the low ground. This has little to do with his expo/ability to expo.

Really the best way is prevention - never put your pool somewhere where it can be ranged from the low ground. I always even start my first gas as all races away from ledges for that reason too. If not, you really just gotta pull ~4 drones when the pylon goes down to kill it. Better yet, kill the probe fast.

Last edit: 2012-07-02 23:50:46

Chutoro New Zealand. July 05 2012 15:30. Posts 91

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On July 02 2012 22:51 Asolmanx wrote:
I'm bumping this tread instead of making a new one because the topic is more or less the same, with the exception that this time i got the natural cannon rushed from the low ground, and at the same time i couldn't get my third because of those cannons. What should i do? Should i make lings and try to break it? Should i go allin? Should i make roaches? Maybe banelings?
I'm really lost and a little mad, Here's the replay. HELP

http://drop.sc/212715

Watched the replay. Honestly I think you panicked a little here. There was no need for proxy hatch shenanigans or anything like that. Protoss made FOUR cannons in total plus two pylons - that's 800 minerals - and for what? He couldn't hit anything in your base (except the extractor which you cancelled). You made a total of one spine (150 minerals) and stopped it cold. All he achieved was denying your natural third.

I think you were too locked in on the idea that you must always go fast third vs. Protoss. He's wasted 800 minerals on cannons/pylons that achieved basically nothing, and then gone for a greedy third himself despite being way behind economically due to the failed cannon rush. Why not just saturate two bases, make a big roach push and kill him? At the very least you should have been able to kill the third, and I think it's likely you would have just won outright.

Orek July 05 2012 17:13. Posts 1389

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On June 17 2012 21:53 Destiny wrote:
After you put your pool down (if you're opening 14p) PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE patrol a drone at the bottom of your ramp (to prevent 3 pylon wall-off) OR just follow the probe/search for the probe if it isn't there.

I know a lot of people (professionals and casters alike) recommend simply keeping an overlord over your natural, BUT THIS IS INCREDIBLY INEFFECTIVE. If he decides to either 3-pylon block your ramp, or build pylons in such a way that he builds 2-3 and can make a cannon inside that's completely protected by the pylons, it's pretty much 100% auto-loss for you.

Well, if protoss decides to 3 pylon block, I could care less about the match any more.
I would rather try to play as if there is a neutral depot at ramp like maps pros use because I am pretty sure something similar will be introduced by HOTS or at least Legacy of the Void.
I would rather try to focus on improving for future rather than trying to adapt to those garbage strategy that will never work in future. I am only at diamond, and about 50% of the time, diamond protoss players are bad enough that they lose after 3 pylon block anyways. Not all protoss can execute good 3 pynd followup at diamond. At master and hgher, probably not.

Grubbegrabbn Sweden. July 05 2012 20:17. Posts 148

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On June 24 2012 17:53 Noritzu wrote:
.....
Your options basically become attempting a 1 base play ( I disagree with 1 base muta or infestor, you just lack the gas to get any decent numbers of them), breaking down the wall with fast roaches and move into a macro game where your way behind, or quit. Honestly if i screw up and let this happen i usually try a 1 base roach/queen nydus attack and pray they mess up and leave a hole i can slip my nydus in.

I read somewhere that you could go hydras instead... like this: get 2 gas asap=>lair=>hydra den=>nydus and get ling speed at some point. 16 workers on minerals, 6 on gas, all gas into hydras. 2 nydus - one in front of nat and in main at the same time.

What are the advantages of going roach? Hydras suck out on the field, but if they pop inside the main I would quess that they do quite well...? More bang for your 1 base gas/larva spiced up with some speedlings. Thoughts, comments?

StaraCroft Austria. July 10 2012 03:33. Posts 165

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14p, 15hatch is risky despite what people will tell you. I am not huge on cannon rushes, but when I see a zerg not saving up larva for lings and going straight for 15 hatch, I will cannon that just because I can. If you feel like you really need to get the hatch up that early, then you should have an OL over your natural, a probe patroling the base of your ramp and at least 2 larva available when pool finishes.
What he did wasn't a cannon rush. Those were just random cannons in the middle of the map. There was no reason to do anything. You didn't even need the spine crawler, and you definitely shouldn't have wasted larva on lings.
The problem in that game is just adrenaline -> panic -> (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻)

StaraCroft Austria. July 10 2012 03:52. Posts 165

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On July 05 2012 17:13 Orek wrote:
Well, if protoss decides to 3 pylon block, I could care less about the match any more.
I would rather try to play as if there is a neutral depot at ramp like maps pros use because I am pretty sure something similar will be introduced by HOTS or at least Legacy of the Void.
I would rather try to focus on improving for future rather than trying to adapt to those garbage strategy that will never work in future. I am only at diamond, and about 50% of the time, diamond protoss players are bad enough that they lose after 3 pylon block anyways. Not all protoss can execute good 3 pynd followup at diamond. At master and hgher, probably not.

There are no 4-spawn maps in tournaments with neutral depos, so you can always pylon block the natural.
I think toss needs either the option to 3-pylon block, or fixed spawn locations to delay the natural to stay on even footing. So you can't 14p 15hatch safely on any tournament map either, and there are a ton of other options that are safe and they don't put you behind, they put you slightly less far ahead