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| Najda United States. June 17 2012 08:47. Posts 1773 | Profile Blog # |
Replay: http://drop.sc/199128
ZvP on Entombed Valley, I'm the Zerg. I'm trying to do a sort of Stephano max out and then tech up and take it from there, but he pushes around 12:30 with a ton of immortal sentries and stalkers and crushes my army. I know I could have maxed out earlier (I was at 165 at 12:00) but I'm not really sure how. I watched the replay and didn't see any big mistakes I was making, but that doesn't mean there wasn't any.
Should I have made less drones?
Should I not have taken a 4th?
Should I have scouted and adjusted by adding on hydras/earlier infestors?
What other mistakes did I make?Last edit: 2012-06-17 11:20:50 |
| | "Admit your flaws, admire your weakness, hone your imperfections – then may you address your desires." — Paul Crik |
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| TylerThaCreator United States. June 17 2012 08:52. Posts 762 | Profile Blog # |
when you're doing a 12 min max you don't take a 4th
User was warned for this post |
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| Peleus Australia. June 17 2012 10:25. Posts 407 | Profile # | |
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| Najda United States. June 17 2012 11:21. Posts 1773 | Profile Blog # |
On June 17 2012 10:25 Peleus wrote:
Wrong replay mate.
Oh sorry uploaded the right one. Don't know how that happened. |
| | "Admit your flaws, admire your weakness, hone your imperfections – then may you address your desires." — Paul Crik |
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| klibrt United States. June 17 2012 11:35. Posts 522 | Profile # |
| Well the "Stephano" style calls for the max around 11~12 minute mark... and hydras is a good counter to immortals |
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| Tombomb United States. June 17 2012 11:56. Posts 52 | Profile # |
I play Protoss. My advice stems from my experience as the defender/aggressor vs the Stephano style you are trying to execute
If you're big time invested into roaches, and he's heavy immortal, you can't win a straight up fight (duh). The solution is not to hit him earlier, as with better positioning (him defending at ramp vs. riding out to meet you) he will still be able to hold even with less units/ a weaker composition (what matters is he'll have less sentry energy and fewer imm.s). The solution is to delay your push until a follow up can be planned (set up for a roach/hydra or a roach/infestor switch), and try and split his attention/resources by attacking multiple angles/ramps. Take your fourth once he's stuck defending, than re-max with your tech switch of choice, and win/ cripple him with your follow up (doom drop/ nydusing hydra roach always a good option  ) On entombed specifically, abuse the large open spaces on that map. Use the Roaches superior speed vs sentry immortal to run him into a bad engagement or to counter attack etc.
To summarize, get creative, and don't wholely invest yourself psychologically on the effectiveness of the roach max. If it fails, have a back-up plan
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| | "If someone tells you to do something for money, tell them to go to hell" |
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| GenesisX Canada. June 17 2012 12:00. Posts 3982 | Profile Blog # |
I'll comment while I'm watching.
+ Show Spoiler +You don't need your 2 gasses or roach warren that early. Actually what Stephano does is 2 gasses at 6 minutes, roach warren at 6:45-7:00. This is as early as you need to be safe from any 7-8 gate all ins. He then takes his zergling speed with his first 100 gas, then makes as many roaches as he can with his gas and the rest zerglings. More detailed build:
6:00 2 gasses
7:00 Roach warren
first 100 gas lings speed
make roaches or lair when possible
4th macro hatch after full mineral saturation
Stephano actually only uses 2 gasses for the whole time (correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I've observed).
In your replay, your queen energy is pretty high at 11 minutes, almost 50 on each queen. You can definitely drone way harder if you scouted, but you didn't. (nothing came so I guess it was ok) Start adding on spire and infestation pit after you've maxed out and pressured with your units. You should be able to remax constantly and pressure constantly with enough larvae, but you need another macro hatch also. As well, immortal pushes like that (especially in the replay) generally lack zealots. Immortals pretty much rape roaches, so make a ton of lings instead. No zealots = effective zerglings.
Don't forget to surround when you engage. Entombed valley is good for that because of the wide center. |
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| Tombomb United States. June 17 2012 12:00. Posts 52 | Profile # |
| a good idea to optimize your builds. Experiment with different subtle things (timings of 3rd hatch vs queens vs gas etc. Order matters.), and drill home your mechanics. The more wired you get the zerg macro mechanics, both physically and mentally the faster your injects/ "sd" commands will execute, and every one action you do faster compounds in the end. You should be able to max out ~30 seconds faster if you drill the build religiously. |
| | "If someone tells you to do something for money, tell them to go to hell" |
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| Protosnake France. June 17 2012 12:01. Posts 285 | Profile # |
The drone number is ok
If you want to play safely, there is no need to take a 4th if he's not taking a 3rd
You wont have time to tech switch to stop that push, so whatever you went for, carry on and keep making unit, in that case roach/ling
The 13 sentry means that you cannot engage that, you'll get forcefielded and the immortal will melt your entire army (Even if you're 200/200)
So what you need to do is engage, force him to make forcefield then retreat, do this until you depleted enough forcefield and can get a good engagement
"Macro better" definitely help against that, since having a sizeable force earlier allow you to engage earlier and force more forcefield while gaining time
Also, engagement are the most important part, always pre-split the roach, flank, anything that can maximize the DPS and force more forcefield is good against that.Last edit: 2012-06-17 12:06:28 |
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| NoDiplomacy Canada. June 17 2012 13:25. Posts 4 | Profile # |
To be honest, your style doesn't look much at all like Stephano's roach 12 min (sometimes 11!) max vs toss. I think that when you were learning his build you sort of got confused. You see Stephano has 2 main builds he likes to do vs toss: first of all he does his early max and secondly he plays for the late game. Each style seems to depend heavily on the map rather than anything else although each works on any map to an extent.
If you were trying to do the 12 minute max: here are your errors:
-you took your gas/roach warren slightly too early as GenesisX explained
-you took a fourth base: the fourth base should be taken as your first maxed push starts to happen. This move by you pointed to the late game.
-you took 2 evolution chambers: only one is needed as roach range upgrade is much better than carapace for an attack (+2 attack vs +1 armor for 50 mins and 50 gas less)
-Only 2-3 gasses are taken for the 12 minute max.
-Drone production should cease at roughly 54-57 drones (16 at each base + 3 in each geyser)
-infestation pit is not put down until around the same time as your 4th base should be, this early infestor pit and upgrade really pointed to the late game.
-early hive/spire: you aren't trying to max, you are rushing brood lords at this point.
-A large swell of overlords should bring you to x/200 supply right before you start roach production (or slightly after if you need to defend a big 6 or 7 gate push)
As for his other style that is more geared towards the end game:
-Simillar opening
-roaches are only used to defend any early pushes, after that lings only
-upgrades are for lings/broodlings: no ranged attacks (in other words get +1 melee and +1 carapace)
-take 4th as enemy takes 3rd, don't try to contest.
-around 9:30 infestation pit
-build 5-6 (i build 8 though because my control, though good, is not Stephanos :D) infestors before getting double spire and hive for mass broodlords.
build a lot of spines and replace all the drones.
As you can see, your build kind of melds the 2 together. You said you were going for the early max, so stick to the roaches! They'll hold him back while you do what you need to do and maybe even kill him sometimes. Also, with the early max it is important to attack at multiple locations. Send a group of your roaches to his natural and another to his third, even sometimes invest in overlord drops if you can control 3 separate groups. Only start to worry about transitioning around 12-14 minutes into the game. DRG does a similar quick max style except he sometimes will transition to mutas which also works great (In case you didn't know that Stephano hates mutas).
I hope this helps. |
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| Servius_Fulvius United States. June 17 2012 14:06. Posts 947 | Profile # |
On June 17 2012 08:47 Najda wrote:Replay: http://drop.sc/199128ZvP on Entombed Valley, I'm the Zerg. I'm trying to do a sort of Stephano max out and then tech up and take it from there, but he pushes around 12:30 with a ton of immortal sentries and stalkers and crushes my army. I know I could have maxed out earlier (I was at 165 at 12:00) but I'm not really sure how. I watched the replay and didn't see any big mistakes I was making, but that doesn't mean there wasn't any. Should I have made less drones? Should I not have taken a 4th? Should I have scouted and adjusted by adding on hydras/earlier infestors? What other mistakes did I make?
You play a similar way I play - make lots of roaches, tech and expand, and keep making roaches if there's an opening or a weak defense. It's plain to see that it's not the greatest style, so I'll have to also heed the advice of the commenter above!
Early-game you were ok. You were supply blocked at 28 and 54, though the one at 28 seemed intentional since I know of players who do that. You were at 68 supply at the 8 minute benchmark...this isn't bad, but you hit it in the last 10 seconds due to the block. Most pro's I've watchhed (Ret, Idra, Machine, some koreans at MLG) hit 70 at 7:30 and then start building roach warren/evo, etc.
You also took a lot of gasses. The thread for the 12 minute max is here (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324733) and it recommends 4 gasses. I've even seen variant where one builds 3 gasses and goes more ling-heavy. Regardless, building a second evo, getting the carapace upgrade, and taking/mining 2 extra gasses took minerals and supply away from roach/ling. You also missed injects when moving army around and spreading creep, which also delays the max.
If your goal is to max on roach ling as soon as possible then you need to cut away what is unecessary and transition later while you're trading units. If it feels a little all-in then you're right - it definitely is if you're not transitioning while attacking.
Don't beat yourself up too much over this loss. The toss made 50 probes and ELEVEN gateways. That's an ABSURD number of gateways for a 2 base all-in. The large number of immortals and sentries indicates that his all-in is a hard-counter to your strategy. You engaged the army properly by baiting forcefields and getting out of bad chokes. If it were me I would have ditched their army and gone for their natural, given up the fourth for lost, and spine the hell out of my third and natural. The spines aren't really to kill them as much as slow them down long enough for roach/ling to arrive. Missing injects during the battle didn't do you any favors with reinforcements, but there wasn't much you could do when the main army died. Last edit: 2012-06-17 14:10:01 |
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