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| jungkyu United States. June 17 2012 13:03. Posts 8 | Profile # |
Heres my replay : http://www.mediafire.com/?q4nnlaod2q9tt3d
I went forge FE while he went 9 pool i think. I knew he was going for a 3spire 5 hydra. so i went kinda for a +1 speed zeal/sair and i got distracted and i messed up my timings but the beginning mutas and scourage killed a lot of probes. and then i moved out with my +1 army and he ran away but he came back with tons of lurkers. i fought it off but he kept a contain. i kept trying to break out of it and when i finally did, he had like 5 bases total. he totally over macroed me and then mutas came and killed my templars and i knew it was gg. also, my resources were over 1k during midgame and sometimes topping 2k at some point, but i never had enoiugh gas. even though i was pumping 2 from 2 base--is this normal?
any help on improving and fighting this? i dont understand what im doing wrong or at least what i can do to get better at pvz. |
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| Bakuryu Germany. June 17 2012 15:48. Posts 268 | Profile Blog # |
u didnt make like 5-6 probes at around 5 min mark, his mutas killed another 5-6, and after his attack when u where harassing with cors, u also forgot to make some probes. that combined with the fact that your build is about +1 cors killing his mutas, which didnt cut it because your stargate was 20 seconds late and u ran in every scourge, put u in a disadvantage position after his muta attack.
There are "only" 2 ways of how u can get lurker contained:
1) he goes for a build that rushes for lurkers (2 or 3 hatch lurker) in order to buy time with the contain so he can get a up a good eco
2) he somehow managed to get an advantage in early-midgame, allowing him to just move his lurker force outside your nat, because u dont have enough units to "deny" the contain.
in your game, u got behind by the muta attack/your supply block resulting in fewer probes etc..., so its number 2)
against a lurker contain, a "good" amount of goons, hts, and 2-3 obs are optimal at fighting lurker contains.
i think u made a little too many ht (other people would freak out and say "oh u should only make 4 ht"......) but i think 8-9 ht are ok, rest gas is needed for mass goons and the obs.
If u see u have overmins, just make zeals, even if he is hydra/lurker. Better make zeals, than not making any unit at all and banking 3k minerals. that money could have enabled u to have 30 more zeal which makes it easy to muscle through zerg army.
lurker contain are 95% only to buy time, not to win the game, so u are supposed to break out, so just macro like a madman and keep your money low. |
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| FyRe_DragOn Canada. June 17 2012 17:12. Posts 1403 | Profile Blog # |
I agree with bakus first paragraph. the rest i dont
You are doing a million things wrong, but #1 you should be concerned with is getting your early game build order down perfectly. Dont forget to make probes for 3mins, put down your buildings on time, and know what you are aiming for, instead of "kinda a 1+ speedzeal/sair". Once you have something solid down, you can tell when it works and when it doesnt, instead of not knowing because it probably was probably your horrible mechanics anyway. You lost in the first 5mins of the game as far as im concerned, anything you or your opponent did after that was inconsequential. The lurker contain consisted of only 1/2 his available lurkers, and you couldve broken it any time you wanted if you knew what you were doing.
Ill start with your 1+ sair opening. The most standard version is to get 7sairs, and while they are building up, a small speedzlot force or a couple dts to harass the zerg. It kind of looked like you were going for speedzlots, so in that case (or in any case) you need your citadel asap after the stargate, after 1+ ground weapons if thats the kind of zlot rush you choose, otherwise immediately after the stargate. 1+ air weapons follows, and then zlot speed or templar archives, depending on which opening youve chosen. Move out with the sairs once you build up 6, and react to what you see. High templar should be made immediately after the speedzlot or dt harass. http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=51245 theres an example of the first 8-9minutes you can follow if youd like.
Breaking an actual hard contain means pumping dragoons out of all gateways, and observers constantly from your robotics. All gas will be used for goons/obs, remaining minerals used for zlots/extra gateways if needed, so you better have enough templars out already. Move out with the dragoons foremost, the templars behind, and engage the lurkers, storming hydra/ling that comes to deter your goon force. Do not waste storms on individual lurkers, and do not use the majority of your zealots until the lurker numbers are significantly reduced.
I disagree with baku in that I believe a zerg can lurker contain a protoss in every "standard" game if he chooses to do so. significant dragoon numbers and observer tech for protoss comes after lurker tech does for zerg. zlot/templar shouldnt engage lurkers directly, and so will be forced back to the main, or to run around harassing stuff. Sometimes position and map and overall gameplan deter the zerg from making a contain, but it is usually an option.
having a good unit combination is paramount to winning pvz (or any matchup), and 8-9 templar, much less 11 like you had in your game, is not part of a good unit combination. 99% of the time, you cant even use 8templars before any battle is done, probably in the zergs favor if that is the bulk of your army. If you make anything, you sacrifice something else, in this case it was your dragoon count for the mass high templars. Your high minerals were also a result of the excessive templars. Making 30zlots would have been more effective than dying immediately with no units, but you would die just the same with nothing to counter his lurkers or muta.
In conclusion, in order to win that game and subsequent games:
#1 have a much more solid early game, with a smooth build and a game plan - dont miss probes, dont waste sairs, get cannons up in time, get templar out in time.
#2 modify said build when scouting to the situation so you have the right unit combination to combat the enemy - make lots of dragoons instead of massing high templar against lurkers.
#3 keep your money low in the midgame as a result of the above 2 - with a heavier dragoon emphasis, your mineral bank would mostly disappear. Use the rest on zealots, gateways and expanding.
Last edit: 2012-06-17 17:16:33 |
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| trix Poland. June 17 2012 18:26. Posts 9 | Profile # |
Don't push contain without goon range
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| FlaShFTW United States. June 18 2012 04:59. Posts 4960 | Profile Blog # |
| plenty of observers, ton of range upgraded goons, and storm are the keys to breaking a contain. shuttle drops are also helpful, as it would relieve some pressure on the front if the zerg has all its units there. |
| | Never Surrender. Never GG. Always Fighting. BW4LYF. Woo Jung Ho Never Forget. |
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| 3FFA United States. June 18 2012 09:26. Posts 2656 | Profile Blog # |
| Just wondering, why goons? Why are goons just so good at breaking these contains? Why not another unit? |
| | I no longer expect the best in people. Sadly, I am beginning to expect much worse. |
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| 538 Hungary. June 18 2012 10:09. Posts 3775 | Profile Blog # |
On June 18 2012 09:26 3FFA wrote:
Just wondering, why goons? Why are goons just so good at breaking these contains? Why not another unit?
Comparing zealots and dragoons: *
1 - Since lurkers have 1 carapace by default, the zealot's 8+8 attack gets reduced to 7+7 - or as low as 6+6 if the zerg has an upgrade advantage, while the dragoon deals 19 damage.
2 - Dragoons are ranged, so they can start shooting at the lurkers relatively at the same time as getting into their range, while a zealot has to walk through the lurker's range before attacking. If the lurkers are in range of each other, several can shoot at an attacking zealot, unlike a dragoon - if placed well.
3 - Zealots are smaller, so they clump better (also, due to their melee attack they have to gather closely around a lurker), so the lurkers' splash damage is more effective (hits more units with one attack).
*There's no real alternative, DTs are only good as a surprise, storms are only cost-effective against clumps and air-to-ground is laughable.
I forgot about reavers, which are also viable at breaking contains with their great range, but need better control than dragoons not to get sniped.Last edit: 2012-06-18 10:14:11 |
| | Introducing Unsung: topic_id=241320 || Kim Ku Hyun fighting! | |
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| Bakuryu Germany. June 19 2012 04:18. Posts 268 | Profile Blog # |
| ... ah ye DragOn is right. mixed in 2 thoughts in 1 post + forgot something = wrong answer |
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| FlaShFTW United States. June 23 2012 01:10. Posts 4960 | Profile Blog # |
On June 18 2012 09:26 3FFA wrote:
Just wondering, why goons? Why are goons just so good at breaking these contains? Why not another unit?
Ranged, deal full 20 damage to lurkers. They are basically the "counter" to lurkers. That's why you see pure zealots early game when only lings and hydras are out, but when the zerg gets lurks out, thats when robo goes down, they start pumping goons, and get goon range. |
| | Never Surrender. Never GG. Always Fighting. BW4LYF. Woo Jung Ho Never Forget. |
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| dr.shrinker Norway. June 26 2012 03:15. Posts 260 | Profile # |
| Let's say you still have 6 or 7 corsairs roaming around, would it not be cost effective to make a fleet beacon and tech to disruption web? I've never tried it, but it's not that expensive compared to losing units left and right trying to break it. |
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| FlaShFTW United States. June 26 2012 04:17. Posts 4960 | Profile Blog # |
On June 26 2012 03:15 dr.shrinker wrote:
Let's say you still have 6 or 7 corsairs roaming around, would it not be cost effective to make a fleet beacon and tech to disruption web? I've never tried it, but it's not that expensive compared to losing units left and right trying to break it.
no. the only time when people tech to d-web and fleet BACON, is when they are going sair/reaver. because you won't really replenish that sair fleet at all when it dies. you'll make maybe one to just scout around the map. but with sair/reaver, you are forced to keep that sair fleet, so then you might as well pick up the d-web. |
| | Never Surrender. Never GG. Always Fighting. BW4LYF. Woo Jung Ho Never Forget. |
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