Sair DT in PvP

On June 18 2012 08:04 Jealous wrote:

On June 18 2012 06:37 DaisyP wrote:

On June 18 2012 04:51 FlaShFTW wrote:

On June 18 2012 04:00 DaisyP wrote:
Sounds like a smurfer.

BTW, on most maps, 12nexus loses to every possible 1 base opening. 10/12 gate crushes 12 nex, and 10gate/gas into 3 gate goon does the same. Why would you open it?!?!?!?!?!!!!????!?!?!????!?

because the meta is a 1 gate 2 zealot into robo goon expo build. thats the standard, and 12 nexus simply crushes any type of 1 gate robo play. 1 gate also beats a 2 gate easily with proper goon micro. so basically, most people dont 2 gate, with the fear of a standard 1 gate robo build, so there are a ton of NA players that go 12 nexus (sayle is a clear example, as he 12 nexus pvp every game)

Your reasoning doesn't make sense, because the 1 base player doesn't commit to 1 gate robo until way after he gets his scout. In other words, 12 nexus should face 1 gate robo 0% of the time.

On June 18 2012 04:40 Jealous wrote:
Otherwise no one would do it, which is clearly not the case?

There's a reason why pros never go 12 nexus. At the amateur level, anything goes. On D and D+ ladder, I standard open pvt with scouts, and I win 70-75% of those games. But, that doesn't make it a smart strategy.

I think it's important to realize that just because you can envision a scenario where 12 nexus wins, it is viable. For example, I admit that I've lost to 12 nexus builds due to poor judgment and micro on my part. But, my win rate is probably over 66% against equally skilled opponents. That makes it a shitty build.

Yes, something like 12nex 13/13 gate against 10/12 gate will tie in army, and be ahead in economy. But then the 12 nex player will have to scout on pylon (unlikely), scout the opponent 1st or second (66% chance), and still outmicro the opponent in the first battle. Even if the 12 nex player holds off the attack, the 10/12 gate player can respond by expanding before gas. Since 13/13 gate cuts probes, the 12 nex player isn't even up by much. On an unrelated note, shield batters work both ways, since it is easy for the 1 base aggressor to build a shield battery in the natural of the opponent (I do it almost every time if I 2gate against a 12 nexus player, assuming the game doesn't end too quickly in my favor).

Jealous, I'm curious how you do your 3 gate. Assuming the 1 base player constantly pressures (this is a reasonably expectation against 12 nexus) and keeps the scouting probe alive (also reasonable against a 12 nexus), there is almost no way that a 12 nex dt build can win (i. e. it gets scouted and reacted to every time). The only way I can imagine staying alive is to forge early and cannon up on a map with a chokey natural expansion.

I admit that I have not seen many if any pro games with PvP 12 nex, but isn't a build that is viable at Sayle's level still worthy of replicating/studying? If Sayle does it, anyone below Sayle's level should also at least try it imo.

I also admit that I have no idea how to 3 gate pressure, I usually opt for other builds. The cases where I went 3 gate pressure I did pressure with goons as much as I could but as you suspect they got fast cannon. I kept massing goons knowing that once I got a decent number I'll be able to bust him outright. And, as I said, just as I killed the last of his cannons and started taking out his nat nexus, dts leave his base. I should have known better, but I am outlining a case where 12 nex is viable which contradicts your initial statement. Of course, as you said, any build is viable if the opponent blunders; I also agree that builds that rely on enemy blunders are risky. But wouldn't this also make 1 gate reaver harass fall into the same catagory? You rely on poor reaction timing from your enemy. Not really sure where I am going with this line of thought now so TL DR: 12 nex might not be viable at the pro level but it is viable at the amateur level and shouldn't be ignored imo. It does not outright lose to any 1 base play.