I was flicking through youtube starcraft videos when I came across imbalanced episode 3, and the talk of voidray colossus.
This got me thinking. What if we had today's maps, game knowledge and modern builds, and played in the previously 'imbalanced' metagame, with none of the patches that appeared after to 'fix' said metagame. In my opinion, this is a good exercise that tells us exactly which patches were needed, and what patches could have been done without.
I will go through one of the big recent balance patches, and give my opinion on whether they were needed at all.
The infestor buff of 1.3.0: This decreased the stun from 8 to 4 seconds, and increased damage to armoured units by 30%. This greatly increased the dps of the infestor and made it the best anti-air zerg unit. The main reason why the infestor was buffed this way was because of the prominence of Voidray/colossus in PvZ. This composition was essentially mass voidray, with a few colossus killing the hydras, and stalkers to add meat and anti corruptor. With hydras being useless due to colossus, and corrupters losing in a fight vs charged voidrays and stalkers, and infestors doing basically zero damage, it seemed like this composition was unbeatable.
However, this was during a time when the maps were true zerg graveyards. These were maps that, if played in todays metagame, would result in very few zerg wins in macro games. Nowadays, zergs can take a 4 minute third vs Protoss and max out in 12 minutes. However, as this was a late game problem, it is more fair to discuss what Zerg could have done late game. Firstly, zergs were using an awful composition in roach/hydra/corrupter, which was very weak to any late game Protoss army (even mass blink stalker), and very much neglected hive tech. It wasn't common knowledge that 15 broodlords would beat mass stalker with ease with even an ounce of infestor support. However, against void rays, the broodlord infestor wouldn't have cut it anyway.
What actually would have completely put and end to voidray colossus is a strategy that became prominent in winter time last year, which was mass mutalisk. 50 mutas doing a base race would have easily defeated any voidray/colossus composition, considering the sheer amount of time it took to make the Protoss deathball, and how much Zerg could take the map. Zergs hadn't figured out how to go muta safely, and didn't realise that Protoss couldn't simply go phoenix vs it, meaning that this previously imbalanced metagame could have possibly been fixed without any balance patches at all.
Discuss other balance changes you think could have been done without!
We already have one thread for balance discussion and we don't want another.
I am the 4%, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17208214 Also known as Heather~ a cancer to teamliquid and probably a terrible, possibly bed wetting, person.
thezanursic Slovenia. June 18 2012 20:39. Posts 2806
On June 18 2012 20:56 Josh_rakoons wrote: Just like BW, every "imbalance" can be figured out without a patch but it just takes a lot more time, and adjusting maps and such.
khaydarin amulet wants to have a word with you.
EDIT: ill explain, its fine to leave a game to balance itself with maps and stuff like in BW if the game's massive imbalances that haven't been looked at have been ironed out in the early days of the game. There were and still are things in every game that are imbalanced they just haven't been figured out yet. Of course you can say imbalance will be figured out eventually but some things are problems in game design so they need to be acted on.
On June 18 2012 20:56 Josh_rakoons wrote: Just like BW, every "imbalance" can be figured out without a patch but it just takes a lot more time, and adjusting maps and such.
Exactly, the maps can be used to balance the matchups which was what BW did.
So it all comes down to how people want to the game to be balanced. Do you want it to be balanced via buff and nerfs á la patches or balanced via choke-points, expansion locations etc. á la maps?
For SC2 we have made the decision to rely on patches.
I think rax before depot, full damage siege tanks and nitro pack reapers would do a lot for the game today, but the map pool at release caused them all to get nerfed.
ZAiNs United Kingdom. June 18 2012 21:15. Posts 3465
Blizzard 'fixed' 2 Gate Zealot pressure against Zerg in early release by increasing Zealot build time. Now the build would be useless even if they reverted the change. Also I'd argue in the current metagame the Fungal with twice the freeze duration is just as good as the higher DPS version.
On June 18 2012 20:53 Spectreman wrote: Terran is the only race that can produce range units without gas. Give a machine gun for a zealot and watch the results.
The fun part in that imbalanced video is that mutas aren't even mentioned, and today they would feel like the perfect answer to a build like oldschool colo/void ray.
Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
On June 18 2012 20:56 Josh_rakoons wrote: Just like BW, every "imbalance" can be figured out without a patch but it just takes a lot more time, and adjusting maps and such.
Exactly, the maps can be used to balance the matchups which was what BW did.
So it all comes down to how people want to the game to be balanced. Do you want it to be balanced via buff and nerfs á la patches or balanced via choke-points, expansion locations etc. á la maps?
For SC2 we have made the decision to rely on patches.
I'd like you to try to balance the game with beta's roaches... (1 supply, more armor, life regeneration same cost). I agree that once you reach an acceptable level of balance the best thing is to continue to balance it according to the metagame with maps, but patches are still a very important part of balancing. I really think this thread will turn into balance whining unfortunately :-(
What actually would have completely put and end to voidray colossus is a strategy that became prominent in winter time last year, which was mass mutalisk. 50 mutas doing a base race would have easily defeated any voidray/colossus composition, considering the sheer amount of time it took to make the Protoss deathball, and how much Zerg could take the map. Zergs hadn't figured out how to go muta safely, and didn't realise that Protoss couldn't simply go phoenix vs it, meaning that this previously imbalanced metagame could have possibly been fixed without any balance patches at all.
Discuss other balance changes you think could have been done without!
ya, because every protoss in that time was dumb like a door, and would go blind mass colosus/voidray/zealot from 2 bases without observer ... -.-' Mass muta wasn't simply discovered one day and zergs started wining, mass muta in ZvP evolved as a response to robo->3rd, and works vs nothing exept that. The point is that there is no other way to expand to a 3rd as a protoss before 10minute mark, so naturaly everybody plays like that now. So you see only that. I think you are wrong. Mass muta would never work vs any 2base timeing, because you can't make them enought before like 13-14minute mark, and for sure would not work vs NOT ffe.
ps. also, your point of view is horribly narrow just because you think only about zvp.
On June 18 2012 20:56 Josh_rakoons wrote: Just like BW, every "imbalance" can be figured out without a patch but it just takes a lot more time, and adjusting maps and such.
This is actualy a bullshit, and if you think that way, you have to be too young to remember...
The biggest hindrance to SC2's balance progress has almost always been the maps. It was impossible for Blizzard to make correct decisions with maps like Steppes, DQ or Blistering in the map pool. I think the biggest victim of the map pool is the siege tank. I don't actually think the damage modifier would be at all necessary on today's maps and metagame. But on the flip side, we have David Kim still saying that siege tanks are imbalanced, so obviously nothing is going to change there.
On June 18 2012 20:56 Josh_rakoons wrote: Just like BW, every "imbalance" can be figured out without a patch but it just takes a lot more time, and adjusting maps and such.
Exactly, the maps can be used to balance the matchups which was what BW did.
So it all comes down to how people want to the game to be balanced. Do you want it to be balanced via buff and nerfs á la patches or balanced via choke-points, expansion locations etc. á la maps?
For SC2 we have made the decision to rely on patches.
I'd like you to try to balance the game with beta's roaches... (1 supply, more armor, life regeneration same cost)
Yeah I think beta roach is an example of complete imbalance, just like 150 spawning pool in BW could be considered completely broken. I think stuff like ghost snipe nerf is what is completely unnecessary.
What actually would have completely put and end to voidray colossus is a strategy that became prominent in winter time last year, which was mass mutalisk. 50 mutas doing a base race would have easily defeated any voidray/colossus composition, considering the sheer amount of time it took to make the Protoss deathball, and how much Zerg could take the map. Zergs hadn't figured out how to go muta safely, and didn't realise that Protoss couldn't simply go phoenix vs it, meaning that this previously imbalanced metagame could have possibly been fixed without any balance patches at all.
Discuss other balance changes you think could have been done without!
ya, because every protoss in that time was dumb like a door, and would go blind mass colosus/voidray/zealot from 2 bases without observer ... -.-' Mass muta wasn't simply discovered one day and zergs started wining, mass muta in ZvP evolved as a response to robo->3rd, and works vs nothing exept that. The point is that there is no other way to expand to a 3rd as a protoss before 10minute mark, so naturaly everybody plays like that now. So you see only that. I think you are wrong. Mass muta would never work vs any 2base timeing, because you can't make them enought before like 13-14minute mark, and for sure would not work vs NOT ffe.
ps. also, your point of view is horribly narrow just because you think only about zvp.
On June 18 2012 20:56 Josh_rakoons wrote: Just like BW, every "imbalance" can be figured out without a patch but it just takes a lot more time, and adjusting maps and such.
This is actualy a bullshit, and if you think that way, you have to be too young to remember...
Voidray/colossus isn't a timing. It is turtling on 2/3 base and maxing out. Considering the gas cost, this would take around 20 minutes to do. Looks like you need to do your homework mate. Watch Idra vs crunched game 1 TsL3 to have an idea of what this is. Also, any half decent player will tell you that if you get 20+ mutas vs a Toss stuck on 2 bases, the game is over.
Last edit: 2012-06-18 21:39:15
Antylamon United States. June 18 2012 21:31. Posts 1342
Blizzard is breaking the rule of the scientific method. Instead of changing one variable, the maps, they're changing two variables at once, the maps and the stats.
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Josh_rakoons United Kingdom. June 18 2012 20:56. Posts 1157
