| bmoneyAK June 19 2012 06:57. Posts 79 | Profile # |
Hi,
I would like some advice on whether it's better to build a 2nd depot before the CC when doing a 1 rax FE.
I don't think there is a "right" way to do it, but I'd like some input on the two variations. Considerations I can think of include:
*CC before 2nd depot is economically better. I'm not sure by how much, but probably 1-2 SCVs. I think that this is a decent amount since a SCV mines almost as much as the cost of a marine per minute, so by the time you hit higher saturation it may be a couple of marines, or even a faster third CC.
*2nd depot first is better against aggression. I am not sure what aggression it matters against except early pool. However, in terms of ladder points, if it saved you once out of every 30 games, it'd probably be worth it.
*Scouting timings and the cost of scouting may play into this. For instance, if you throw down 2nd depot before CC, you may not need to scout as early and this additional mineral income might offset the economic advantages of CC before 2nd depot. Alternately, if you CC first and scout earlier, perhaps you can detect any aggression that would necessitate throwing down the depot before such aggression arrives.
*2nd depot first can deny scouting, but I'm not sure if it's important. If you do 2nd depot first then CC, it's still obvious that you're expanding quickly.
I found a similar thread, but I chose to make a new one since this is focused on a more narrow scope (depot timing only).
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=336621
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| TibblesEvilCat United Kingdom. June 19 2012 07:07. Posts 766 | Profile # |
i think you anserwed your own questions?
i would advise to scout, then place depo if early agression appears, i've seen players use the 2nd cc asthe wallin at the top, since hiding the cc can be hard or promt your oppoment to mass troops which could punnish the 1 rax fe style of play. |
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| ArchAngelSC England. June 19 2012 07:13. Posts 191 | Profile # |
In TvP the few extra marines you'll have won't really make that much difference to holding off any sort of pressure so going for the more economic 1 depot CC is better here IMO
In TvZ you can hold off 4-6 lings doing one depot CC whereas going 2 depot CC you can probably hold off 6-8 lings, but if they're building that many lings that early then they're probably doing some heavy allin aggression anyway and the extra couple of marines aren't gonna be what save you, you'll need scouting and a bunker, so again going for the more economic 1 depot CC is better
Same goes for TvT as in TvZ, if they're gonna throw anything at you that early that you can't hold with the marines off of a 1 depot CC then you probably won't be able to hold off 2 depot CC either, you'll need proper scouting and respond with bunkers etc.Last edit: 2012-06-19 07:17:44 |
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| zezamer Finland. June 19 2012 07:14. Posts 1805 | Profile # |
CC before 2nd depo is better for mineral tight openings, like in TvP standard is 1 rax expo into 2 rax double gas engibay. Going 1 depo expo allows you to skip the 3rd depo which you normally build around 23 because the CC finishes before you reach 27 supply. With 2 depo before expo you have to build the depo or hit a suppyl block @27 which isn't good. So you will get the "core"(=3 rax, 2 gas, engibay) faster by going 1 depo expo.
I'm actually kinda tired so sorry if I make no sense/typos/etc
Last edit: 2012-06-19 07:15:51 |
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| Baum Germany. June 19 2012 07:33. Posts 948 | Profile # |
| Why do a CC before second depot if you can just go CC first instead? I don't like giving away information for free so building the depot first is just a good way of buying time to clear the scout before throwing down the CC. You have to have a really tight build to make the faster CC worth it because giving away that information will easily make it possible for your opponent to play as greedy and if you aren't playing a TvT this is always bad news for you. So if you aren't planning on hitting a timing push early and hard don't give away the info that you are expanding that early with a 1 rax expand. If you want to play as economically as possible do a CC first. |
| | I want to be with those who share secret things or else alone. |
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| iAmJeffReY United States. June 19 2012 07:52. Posts 3384 | Profile # |
I always 2nd depot before CC. I like the extra walling off to stop any potential shenanigans, and it just is how I have always done a 1 rax FE.
It just has to be your go to build, that you scout and react well with if you CC before depot. It lets the enemy 100% KNOW what you are doing. Sure, you could cancel and make 5 rax and 6 rax all in...but it is a gimmick.
However, due to my transitions in TvP/TvZ I do depot before CC in TvZ, and CC before depot in TvP. I just bunker twice and marine up, as usual for me in TvP.
In TvZ, anything to help stop ling run bys is well worth it. Just after, start walling off at your ramp in TvZ. If you scout some bane, through ling bane, or roach bane, spread bunkers out BEHIND the wall, not clumped next to wall, and all the way back to your minerals. 3-4 spaced out bunkers, with left over units and scv pulls you can hold busts easily if you properly scout. |
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| PhobosSC Canada. June 19 2012 09:12. Posts 23 | Profile # |
Something ive seen a few terrans do that is really troublesome is to walloff at the bottom of the ramp rather than the top, on many maps it only requires 1 depot and a rax to complete (much how terrans used to walloff in beta when they were going to be aggressive early). The payoff for this style is having your CC down faster plus they can no longer send a scout halfway up your ramp and potentially see the CC building. Another cheeky aspect is doing the standard two depot wall virtually guarantees you arent going fast gas (and it can be assumed youre fast expanding), this would remove the aility to make this assumption since they cant scoot up the ramp partway to see the CC and the minerals saved from the depot might be put into a quick gas.
No idea if this is a very viable move but it certainly seems like something that could be made to work really well. |
| | My mom has been sleeping around with the european ladder - InControL |
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| SC2John United States. June 19 2012 09:15. Posts 916 | Profile # |
I've straightened out my builds so that they always start with a 1rax expand, CC before the second depot. I've found that if you've got the proper information you need early, you can decided where to put the CC since you don't build it until 16 supply anyway. For instance:
1) You scout a terran early and don't see a rax in his base...scouting until 15 supply and no CC means that there's a proxy reaper, proxy marauders, or a hidden 2rax. Therefore, you know you can just build you CC inside your base and build a bunker to wall off.
2) You scout a protoss doing a proxy 2rax. Build the CC to wall off, you win.
3) You scout a zerg player sending 6 lings to your base really early (early pool). Do the intuitive thing and build a supply depot to finish walling off if you can't afford CC in time. Otherwise, use CC to block -> win.
If there's any pressure after the expand actually goes down, you should be able to hold with proper information, a bunker or two, and a handful of marines. This is my favourite way to open in every matchup, hope this helps! |
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| Depravity June 19 2012 09:17. Posts 67 | Profile # |
Depends on which race i guess
Typically, i do Two Depos since it's safe- It also denies scouting .
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| | Treat others like how you want to be treated |
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| SC2John United States. June 19 2012 09:18. Posts 916 | Profile # |
On June 19 2012 09:12 PhobosSC wrote:
Something ive seen a few terrans do that is really troublesome is to walloff at the bottom of the ramp rather than the top, on many maps it only requires 1 depot and a rax to complete (much how terrans used to walloff in beta when they were going to be aggressive early). The payoff for this style is having your CC down faster plus they can no longer send a scout halfway up your ramp and potentially see the CC building. Another cheeky aspect is doing the standard two depot wall virtually guarantees you arent going fast gas (and it can be assumed youre fast expanding), this would remove the aility to make this assumption since they cant scoot up the ramp partway to see the CC and the minerals saved from the depot might be put into a quick gas.
No idea if this is a very viable move but it certainly seems like something that could be made to work really well.
You actually can't wall off fully with just a supply depot/rax at the bottom of the ramp. There's still a 1-hex space to fit a worker in (unlike with 2 bunkers)...you can block off that area with a worker, but another worker can simply mineralwalk through. |
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| Grubbegrabbn Sweden. June 19 2012 18:09. Posts 148 | Profile # |
On June 19 2012 09:18 SC2John wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 09:12 PhobosSC wrote:
Something ive seen a few terrans do that is really troublesome is to walloff at the bottom of the ramp rather than the top, on many maps it only requires 1 depot and a rax to complete (much how terrans used to walloff in beta when they were going to be aggressive early). The payoff for this style is having your CC down faster plus they can no longer send a scout halfway up your ramp and potentially see the CC building. Another cheeky aspect is doing the standard two depot wall virtually guarantees you arent going fast gas (and it can be assumed youre fast expanding), this would remove the aility to make this assumption since they cant scoot up the ramp partway to see the CC and the minerals saved from the depot might be put into a quick gas.
No idea if this is a very viable move but it certainly seems like something that could be made to work really well.
You actually can't wall off fully with just a supply depot/rax at the bottom of the ramp. There's still a 1-hex space to fit a worker in (unlike with 2 bunkers)...you can block off that area with a worker, but another worker can simply mineralwalk through.
Wrong. This is how its done on a small ramp (see image below). Depot and rax overlap on the "tip" of the ramp. It may seem like its possible to walk by the depot but it isnt. Please dont post incorrect information.
![[image loading]](http://i51.tinypic.com/ev8m5j.jpg) |
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| Clarity_nl Netherlands. June 19 2012 21:42. Posts 3283 | Profile # |
| Just know that this wall off can not be done on tournament maps so if you have even the slightest thought of playing in cups etc don't rely on this. |
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| naggerNZ New Zealand. June 19 2012 21:48. Posts 700 | Profile # |
| Also good luck holding a roach/ling/bane all-in with a low ground wall-off. |
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| U_G_L_Y United States. June 19 2012 21:59. Posts 458 | Profile Blog # |
| Cc before depot seems bumpy, it feels like you have to cut an SCV or a marine or get supply blocked or start your bunker late. Does anyone know what time a chronoboosted zealot/ stalker poke should hit? It feels like they have hit a lot sooner in custom games against Master and Grandmaster opponents but I can't find replays ATM... |
| | I'm older than NesTea and slower than GoOdy |
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| hersenen Belize. June 19 2012 22:03. Posts 176 | Profile # |
| There's a reason all top level koreans and pros do CC first before second depot. Don't listen to these people saying second depot before CC is better, the only reason people do that is for mind games in bo3 series, it's not for added "safety". |
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| Quartal June 19 2012 22:09. Posts 114 | Profile # |
I prefer 2nd depot before CC, as i feel that the ability to quickly wall out the scout and keep your opponent guessing outweighs the later CC.
Usually my build order looks something like 12 rax 14 depot 17 OC 18 CC. Normally i rally out the 13th SCV which starts the depot, then halts construction and goes to scout. The CC finishes before a 3rd depot is needed, and if you mineral stack very wel, you can have no cut in SCV or marine production.
Also the presence of the barely started depot isn't too big a tipping point that you're gasless. Unless they see the exact time the depot starts, you can still fit a depot block into a build which takes gas. Puma often does this, IIRC the game vs HerO on Antiga from HerO's Dreamhack win, Puma depot blocks his wall, while going for a 1/1/1 marine hellion drop.
I still think that CC before depot is better economically, but since a lowground CC before depot is always scoutable as the CC goes down right before the marine pops, I prefer depot before CC.
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| | name changed from iREight | |
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| U_G_L_Y United States. June 19 2012 22:11. Posts 458 | Profile Blog # |
On June 19 2012 07:07 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
i think you anserwed your own questions?
i would advise to scout, then place depo if early agression appears, i've seen players use the 2nd cc asthe wallin at the top, since hiding the cc can be hard or promt your oppoment to mass troops which could punnish the 1 rax fe style of play.
How would you go about scouting aggression before 15 supply? |
| | I'm older than NesTea and slower than GoOdy |
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| Gosi Sweden. June 19 2012 22:14. Posts 3129 | Profile # |
| Almost always CC before 2nd depo for me. I'm just really greedy so on the few maps I don't 14 CC I go for 1 marine CC. |
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| U_G_L_Y United States. June 19 2012 22:16. Posts 458 | Profile Blog # |
On June 19 2012 09:18 SC2John wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 09:12 PhobosSC wrote:
Something ive seen a few terrans do that is really troublesome is to walloff at the bottom of the ramp rather than the top, on many maps it only requires 1 depot and a rax to complete (much how terrans used to walloff in beta when they were going to be aggressive early). The payoff for this style is having your CC down faster plus they can no longer send a scout halfway up your ramp and potentially see the CC building. Another cheeky aspect is doing the standard two depot wall virtually guarantees you arent going fast gas (and it can be assumed youre fast expanding), this would remove the aility to make this assumption since they cant scoot up the ramp partway to see the CC and the minerals saved from the depot might be put into a quick gas.
No idea if this is a very viable move but it certainly seems like something that could be made to work really well.
You actually can't wall off fully with just a supply depot/rax at the bottom of the ramp. There's still a 1-hex space to fit a worker in (unlike with 2 bunkers)...you can block off that area with a worker, but another worker can simply mineralwalk through.
False. |
| | I'm older than NesTea and slower than GoOdy |
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| oneblackcat United States. June 20 2012 02:15. Posts 4 | Profile # |
On June 19 2012 22:03 hersenen wrote:
There's a reason all top level koreans and pros do CC first before second depot. Don't listen to these people saying second depot before CC is better, the only reason people do that is for mind games in bo3 series, it's not for added "safety".
Well, what is the reason that CC first before second depot is better? |
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