Thanks, 2pacalypse; that helps a lot. I played a bunch of games yesterday, and I spawned as Zerg a lot. Firstly, I noticed that my macro really really slipped when I tried to micro mutas. Furthermore, I kept getting within like on pixel of being able to attack (and kill, 11 mutas in a stack), but I flew out because they took too long. Patrol seems to fix this. This is good news, because the moving shot is something I struggle with.
Most of the cute things you can do like patrol micro are not really critical skills and might actually impede you if you spend too much concentration on them (if your goal is winning 1:1). However, other things are very critical which are not as cute, for example engaging a Terran mech army with Protoss Zealots and goons. You need to move click the Zealots so they drag mines into tanks, split them up well so they maximize tank splash instead of dying all to one tank... Lots of times it's important to make one zealot soak up a lot of mines or else you could lose 12 zealots before any get to tanks (maybe sounds contradictory to my first point, but you will see what I mean in real games).
It's very important to learn strategy and logical transitions, and gosu muta micro usually isn't a requirement of it (tho it might be a requirement of many pro strategies which hinge upon it).
If you wanna play Zerg, your main concern is gonna be making sure you flank if you play the old school style, delaying terran army without sacrificing too much, and making efficient costs of lings vs expensive gas units. A lot of micro in brood war involves move clicking to posture your army in an optimal position to maximize their aggregate of attack... for example you might run zerglings by marines instead of a clicking toward the marines if you want to surround them so they can't run away and do annoying terran things. Other times you need to attack click on a single unit so that you focus fire, and your opponent counter micros by moving that units back. Much of the art of normal unit micro is lost at low rank players who only focus on vulture patrol and muta stack, but it is very important to getting favourable outcomes in micro battles of 1-2 control groups or more, which tend to be the most important battles.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
[Aot]_Aether United States. June 21 2012 07:30. Posts 89
I am actually getting much better at positioning. I won with some stop lurkers today. It felt really good, and I felt like the one whose name we dare not speak.
Tell me builds to help me win, please. :)
sluggaslamoo Australia. June 21 2012 13:50. Posts 3491
Response time: Patrol > Hold > Attack (The order sometimes is flipped around depending on the situation)
Attack and Patrol automatically target the closest unit within range. (Focused attack)
Hold position is random however. (Damage spread out)
Hold Position makes you stay in one spot and attack immediately. Patrol and Attack tend to move to the target location than attack and this tendency is much common for Patrol.
Details:
Once the first target is killed by an Attack or Patrol command, the next targets chosen are random. So if you want to attack the closest unit every time, you need to issue the Attack or Patrol command each time.
If you command units to attack to a location within their attack range, they attack from that position but if you use patrol, they move to the position first.
ex) When you have four dragoons, each next to a marine with the fourth dragoon next to a firebat, each dragoon attacks its closest target
Usage:
If you want to attack enemy melee units with a group of dragoons, instead of using Hold, use Patrol to focus fire.
If you want a perfect focus fire, use the attack and click on the enemy unit.
Because the patrol command tends to move and focus fire, it is better than hold position in positions where you have to retreat and attack. (When having a melee unit vs melee unit battle, it is better to use patrol than move-attack)
However when you order a dragoon to patrol and there are no enemy units in range, it will simply move back so it's a little tricky.
Air units without attack automatically run away when ordered to patrol
When fighting a melee unit with the same kind of unit, using patrol will cause it to attack slightly faster. (Useful in Zealot control)
Conclusion:
For perfect focus fire use attack (click on unit) or right click (on unit)
When using ranged or hit and run type of attacks, use patrol or hold position.
In the situation above, use patrol for focus fire, hold position is however more comfortable
When using ranged units against a mixture of ranged/melee units, use patrol or attack because it will focus on the closest unit (Patrol recommended)
If firebats are attacking you dragoon, using hold position will cause your dragoons to attack marines far away as well.
Using patrol/attack will cause you to attack the closest firebats first.
When using melee units, Patrol is better than move-attack. (automatically moves back a little bit)
ex) Using zealots against zerglings, use patrol to counter Zergling's fast attack speed
Also click patrol on top of a group of air units to do a 180 shot and spam right click after to keep going in the same direction.
Useful for when scourge are chasing your Mutas/Wraiths.
For Valkyries you click patrol away from the direction of the attack, the more clumped they are the better it works, otherwise they will seemingly go in random directions. So lets say a bunch of scourge are chasing your valks, move towards the scourge for a brief moment, then quickly click Patrol away from the scourge. You will lose control for a brief moment but if you do it right, it will look like the valks never stopped but only slowed down a bit.
As zerg, a very common mistake to make is the assumption that lurkers can defend against marine/medic drops efficiently. Just don't become too heavily reliant on them. Mutas (with proper micro) are THE best defence against drops. Once you get the micro down too, mutas can start to pick off marines with relative ease. Unless the terran knows how to fake and play mind games.
Skip to 10 minutes for an example of terran marine micro catching a zerg off guard.
Last edit: 2012-06-26 13:54:00
Its only over when you decide its over.
FlaShFTW United States. June 27 2012 03:34. Posts 4960
On June 21 2012 07:30 [Aot]_Aether wrote: I am actually getting much better at positioning. I won with some stop lurkers today. It felt really good, and I felt like the one whose name we dare not speak.
mah bonjwa?
muta micro, goon micro, vulture micro. basics we all need to learn.
Never Surrender. Never GG. Always Fighting. BW4LYF. Woo Jung Ho Never Forget.
Aleron, muta definitely hard counter a Terran blindly getting a dropship, but in a realistic game where a good Terran is not sending small drops during your muta phase, it is more realistic to expect to defend them with a good number of speedlings and maybe a lurker or two once you pin them behind a mineral wall (that would otherwise make your lings extremely inefficient). Ideally you just have good minimap awareness and overlord scouting and you can scourge the drops. I would not build 8-12 muta just to deal with drops in the mid game tho, because muta really lose their effectiveness once terran ball gets big enough and vessels can irradiate. That's why players don't replenish muta numbers once they die in a flank or get irradiated. In general it's also just more cost effective to get speedling and some scourge instead of investing so much in muta that won't have any other purpose other than defending drops and harassing island expos.
I suppose that's true. However, its not purely for harassing expos and defending drops. As I recall, I very commonly saw 7+ mutalisk initially harassing expo lines, but also reinforcements for preventing the terran ball from getting too large. I suspect that people were keeping track of when those reinforcing marines would actually pop out to go and pick them off. I'm not entirely sure. But I have noticed vessels becoming more and more popular nowadays. Its just been a while for me.
Edit: Yes, I agree with your point on the ling lurker combination and scourge being more effective. I just think mutalisk still isnt quite as bad as you made it out to be. There are moments in which mutalisk harass would be more effective aren't there?
Last edit: 2012-06-27 08:53:17
Its only over when you decide its over.
L_Master United States. July 01 2012 11:54. Posts 3497
On June 27 2012 08:50 Aleron wrote: I suppose that's true. However, its not purely for harassing expos and defending drops. As I recall, I very commonly saw 7+ mutalisk initially harassing expo lines, but also reinforcements for preventing the terran ball from getting too large. I suspect that people were keeping track of when those reinforcing marines would actually pop out to go and pick them off. I'm not entirely sure. But I have noticed vessels becoming more and more popular nowadays. Its just been a while for me.
Edit: Yes, I agree with your point on the ling lurker combination and scourge being more effective. I just think mutalisk still isnt quite as bad as you made it out to be. There are moments in which mutalisk harass would be more effective aren't there?
Yes, but usually at that later stage of the game their are much more important things to focus on than the heavy micro needed for mutalisk harassing the terrans mineral lines and or army.
Also, irradiate.
Neo.G Soulkey!
Igeneous United States. July 03 2012 13:45. Posts 22
Remember SC2 AI is way smarter. A stalker's AI is like 100 dragoon's ai scripts added together. So just A move and right click for some ranged units won't work in BW. But in BW you can patrol micro
CrtBalorda Slovenia. July 03 2012 20:35. Posts 535
On July 03 2012 13:45 Igeneous wrote: Remember SC2 AI is way smarter. A stalker's AI is like 100 dragoon's ai scripts added together. So just A move and right click for some ranged units won't work in BW. But in BW you can patrol micro
Define smart
I'd rather goons than stalkers (without blink) against seige tanks. Stalkers are too dumb to be able to move in a spread out formation against tank splash.
BW: Slugger[wOk] feel free to add | No Tidehunter
1a2a3a[MB] United States. July 08 2012 19:19. Posts 265
On July 04 2012 12:05 sluggaslamoo wrote: Define smart
I'd rather goons than stalkers (without blink) against seige tanks. Stalkers are too dumb to be able to move in a spread out formation against tank splash.
No, the dragoon AI is definitely stupid. I think Day9's description of it will do quite fine here.
Its only over when you decide its over.
BroodKingEXE United States. July 16 2012 08:44. Posts 798
On June 21 2012 01:52 [Aot]_Aether wrote: Thanks, 2pacalypse; that helps a lot. I played a bunch of games yesterday, and I spawned as Zerg a lot. Firstly, I noticed that my macro really really slipped when I tried to micro mutas. Furthermore, I kept getting within like on pixel of being able to attack (and kill, 11 mutas in a stack), but I flew out because they took too long. Patrol seems to fix this. This is good news, because the moving shot is something I struggle with.
Thanks!
Just take an expand or two before the harass. Make your over saturated b4 hand then you can get lots of macro hatches to make up. I'd practice HT micro as it helps Defiler micro out too. Magic box!
Muta Vulture most important. Best harassment units, without them too hard to play.
Last edit: 2012-07-16 08:46:14
Playing Protoss = Opponent owned
BroodKingEXE United States. July 16 2012 08:56. Posts 798
On June 27 2012 08:50 Aleron wrote: I suppose that's true. However, its not purely for harassing expos and defending drops. As I recall, I very commonly saw 7+ mutalisk initially harassing expo lines, but also reinforcements for preventing the terran ball from getting too large. I suspect that people were keeping track of when those reinforcing marines would actually pop out to go and pick them off. I'm not entirely sure. But I have noticed vessels becoming more and more popular nowadays. Its just been a while for me.
Edit: Yes, I agree with your point on the ling lurker combination and scourge being more effective. I just think mutalisk still isnt quite as bad as you made it out to be. There are moments in which mutalisk harass would be more effective aren't there?
I agree. Mutas are also good for picking off tanks. You harass they have to pull back and mess up their tank line you go in and pick off tanks. Feel lurkers are best at picking off bio groups patrolling the map as opposed to in battles.
Unfortunately for me, playing on iccup means 0.5 sec delay. Intensive micro units such as mutas, vultures and marines are not viable for me. I really like to play more terran but having to micro marines and vultures just gets me frustrated and so I resort to playing protoss as they are more forgiving for me (just no cute reaver micro).
Main thing I learned in PvT is to take your time to arrange your army against a mech-ball. The push comes at a slow pace so there's plenty of time to design a flank and spread out your units.