I go for a 14 Gate 17 Gas 17 Nexus build and he goes for a 2 Rax. I scout it with my probe so I decide to cut probes and chrono out zealots while saving up for a 2nd gate. I made a mistake pulling my probes to the natural too quick and lost mining time but I think I still would of lost regardless of that.
How exactly do you beat a 2 rax with a such a fast nexus? I know it can be done because Parting/Squirtle etc do it fine but I can't seem to figure out how to hold it.
I will love to know how beat, or the safest expansion build vs 2rax. Is even very hard to hold with MC 1gate nexus. I want to know how to be safe aganist this, because with any expo build looks like you have to outmicro you opponent very hard to stand a chance. Also looking the win rate of 2rax in PvT pro games is digusting.
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Please Blizz buff speevacs for TvP!
BronzeKnee United States. June 21 2012 07:04. Posts 2635
I will love to know how beat, or the safest expansion build vs 2rax. Is even very hard to hold with MC 1gate nexus. I want to know how to be safe aganist this, because with any expo build looks like you have to outmicro you opponent very hard to stand a chance. Also looking the win rate of 2rax in PvT pro games is digusting.
In response to your question, in my experience the old 3 Gate Sentry expand crushes the "standard" 2 Rax (1 tech lab, 1 reactor with a CC coming behind). If you scout 2 Rax, you can pretty much harder counter it with this build.
The issue with this build is that it isn't good vs the 1-1-1 or 1-1-2. MC's 1 Gate Nexus can hold the 2 Rax too, but it is much more difficult, your timings have be very tight.
It looks like this replay is a gasless 2 rax all-in, I am checking it out now...
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Last edit: 2012-06-21 07:13:01
ishyishy United States. June 21 2012 07:17. Posts 795
I dont think the question is "how to beat 2 rax with this greedy build", I think the question is "what can i do instead of this build against terran to be a little safer and not auto lose to 2 rax".
My suggestion is to do a 3 gate expand. Do it the same you would with a 4 gate, except instead of skipping the 3rd pylon for the 3 extra gates, make a 3rd pylon at 22 supply, and at around 4:30-4:40, put down 2 gates instead. This is so you can keep making probes instead of cutting.
Pressure with the 1 zealot + 2 stalkers you made, just as if you were 4 gating. Make sure to place a proxy pylon in a good spot. At 5:35 or so, you should have enough to make a nexus (this is right before warp gate finishes). At 5:55 (or around there, more or less) you should be able to warp in 3 units at your proxy and pressure his front. You can usually get 1-2 sentries and 1-2 stalkers. If he isnt prepared, or thinks you are bluffing with your first 3 units, sometimes they can just die to this pressure.
Sometimes they will over-prepare and make 3 bunkers. Just simply stop warping in units after your first warp in, and then tech up. Make sure to hold the watch towers with a zealot and your proxy probe, and send the rest of your units back to your base.
Using this build, you will know: - If they are cheesing with 2 rax or other cheese builds. You will see an early marauder, you wont see an expansion, you will see addons on top of their ramp, you will see a bunker on top of their ramp.
- You wont die to a 2 rax scv all in if they are doing it blind. By the time they get to your base, your gates will finish and you will be able to warp in shit and pull probes to smash it.
- You will straight up kill the people that get REALLY greedy with 1 rax and a fast 3rd base (if they assume you are doing 1 gate expand after you chase out their scout). You wont be able to tell ahead of time if they do this, but I've ran into plenty that think they can get away with it.
- You will kill CC first every time, as long as you send your units there asap, and harass with probes to delay their bunker and/or rax.
- As long as you dont waste too much on warp ins, you will still have enough time to make a robo in the case of cloak banshees. It's a bit of a gamble, but it's still possible.
This transitions very nicely into a 2 base, 5 gate 2 colossus w/ upgrades all in, as long as you didnt cut too many probes. 16 on each minerals. I use 3 gasses, but you can use 4 if you really like a lot of sentries.
@Belha This opening by Sase gets alot of units, you probably wanna go for stalkers or zealots instead of sentries if you scout 2 rax. It also has a strong timing to mitigate some of the disadvantage from the later expand. I'm only diamond but it has worked nicely.
(around 5:20)
Whatever NonY is doing probably hard-counters it aswell.
Edit: there was a similar build on a daily that used stalkers aggressively that crushed 2rax quite badly, but I don't remember what it was called.
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Last edit: 2012-06-21 07:50:09
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
emaster United States. June 21 2012 10:23. Posts 32
Wow, a ton of really, really bad responses in here... at least uninformed people who are too lazy to answer your question.
I've been doing a 15 nex 15 gate for a while... switched to this one, but that one would be even worse to hold than the parting style... however I've been holding all sorts of two rax including reaper and even marine scv all in. I was diamond at that time, im plat now so maybe this is below your level, but the timings I get hit with are same timings as higher level 2 rax openings. PvT has been my best matchup for a while, and the only matchup where I actually work out a build.
MACRO: Any slip ups, and you're dead. To hold off the 2 rax you scout after planting the nex. as soon as you dont see a gasless expo at the natural you get down your cyber core at 18, do not chrono probes, but chrono out units in this order >zealot zealot stalker stalker. Cut probes if you have to make that. When I know without a doubt that 2 rax is coming I like to cut probes a little more to get an extra gate in early while getting constant chrono'd zealot and stalker production. I also micro my scouting worker to know exactly
MICRO: Any slip ups, and.... yep you're dead When the terran scouts such an early nexus, they usually hit with the first round of units. thats a good thing. Any scvs he brings, match it. If you're uncomfortable you can bring more, but losing too many probes will put you behind.
As per common sense, zealots in front stalkers in back. Attack with stalker, and then move it foward for when they kite, which they will (if they dont you will win the battle anyway) and target fire marauders with the stalkers. Move back injured units when possible.
Knowing when to pull probes can be a hard judgement call, but hopefully you won't have to. If you need to pull probes, you want to do it while you still have a few stalkers up. Use your best judgement, and study that issue carefully.
Just remember, holding the 2 rax requires cutting probes a lil bit, and not chronoing them at all until you're held. That means that if you do this, you will be behind against a gasless FE player... you NEED to scout! If you get absolutely no info at all, then you probably have to do that macro. But being HIGHLY persistent with scouting and reading is of the utmost importance!
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BronzeKnee United States. June 21 2012 10:50. Posts 2635
On June 21 2012 10:23 emaster wrote: Wow, a ton of really, really bad responses in here... at least uninformed people who are too lazy to answer your question.
You have a lot of nerve saying that when you yourself didn't watch the replay. It was a gasless Marine/SCV all-in from 2 Raxes, it wasn't the standard 2 Rax, so there is no target firing Marauders with Stalkers.
Anyway, back to the OP. If you open with such a greedy opening (essentially you're doing an economic cheese build) and your opponent does a Marine/SCV all-in, you'll have to pull all of your Probes to defend, you can't pull half, then pull half later as you did in the replay. Furthermore your Stalker micro and mineral walking with Probes has to be spot on, and it wasn't. Basically it all comes down to micro. If you have a video/replay of Parting or Squirtle holding one then I would do what they do, but I'd bet it simply comes down to micro.
Finally, despite the position you were in, you weren't dead. You still could have microed those 2 Stalkers and you have a few Probes left to mine with and had two Nexuses to rebuild and chrono with. You have to micro those Stalkers like a champion vs those Marines and SCVs, he pulled everything so if you can kill off what is in your base then you'll be in decent shape.
Last edit: 2012-06-22 05:13:38
FlyingBeer United States. June 21 2012 10:54. Posts 179
I'm guessing Parting scouts for certain things and cancels the nexus if he sees a fast factory or 2nd barracks go down, then gets sentries and a robo.
He might also be able to let the nexus finish, forcefield his main ramp, and then kill off the rines after warp gate finishes before they have time to destroy the nexus.
Another possibility is chronoboosting 2 sentries, forcefielding the natural first, then backing up into the main and harassing with stalkers from the main once warpgate finishes while being prepared to FF it off if the marines run up the ramp. After you get enough warp ins, then kill off the marines.
But I'm not sure if the timing would work for either of those since I've never tried that build. Since most of the top terrans 1rax FE, this probably doesn't come up too often for Parting or Squirtle.
sheogorath above is referring to Feast's FE with lots of stalkers where he just chronoboosts warp gate a lot and gets 3 gates to make an early push. It doesn't crush a 2rax, just holds it with good micro and allows a strong counter push. Feast later lost the game.
But any build where you FE and your opponent doesn't is going to require good micro to win.
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sc2maps.tumblr.com
TheBigO United States. June 21 2012 11:00. Posts 56
To be honest, after looking at the replay, I wouldn't really call it a "2 Rax." A regular 2 rax has a refinery at around 13-14, a barracks at 15 (if it happens before the orbital command), a reactor on the first barracks, a tech lab on the second barrakcs, and then a supply depot. A regular 2 rax's goal is to pressure with a couple marines (3-7) and some marauders(1-2) with either the concussive shell upgrade or combat shields/stim pack for a later attack. Your replay, however, does not match this description at all.
Honestly, this guy did a 11 11 rax marine scv all in. He pulled everything except 1 scv, and he had mules. You are giving the wrong information. Holding a regular 2 rax is VERY different from holding an scv all in because an scv all-in is more deadly and all-innish while a 2 rax is an aggressive build that can transition somewhat into a macro game.
Overall, I think you should edit your post. That way, you can get better and more accurate advice. I hope that my post helped since I actualy watched your replay.
I really need a better quote... but I have no ideas :( .
OK watched the replay ... i've been doing this parting expand for a while. I've personally slightly modified it for my own style all i've changed is gas timing (slightly) but in general im doing almost the exact same thing as you. This is the guide right? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341631
1: Pylons 2 and 3 should be IN YOUR BASE! not down the ramp (see 4 as to why). 2: You went for x2 zealots. You should be going zealot stalker (stalkers can be micro'd better and help delay). 3: You have to poke the terran with the zealot/stalker. You can get a ton of information with this. (though in the replay you had all you needed but its still good to poke to learn army positions, or potentially get a marine with micro etc) 4: SAC THE EXPO! for a very early marine/scv all in just sac the nexus and save the probes. Just by the nature of this all in you can't save the expo (unless its a late variant of that all in) but thats ok you should already have the worker advantage. Also if he goes for the nexus you just bought yourself a shit load of time if not then you get spare chrono for units. 5: Fight at your main's ramp and in your main base microing and producing. You can also pull probes ... but make sure to keep some mining so you can make more units. 6: Chrono's on units none on warpgate research. However be careful with your supply the marine/scv all in can mess up pylon timings.
Just remember all you have to do is hold off this attack and you probabaly win (unless you lose all probes ) so do whatever you need to do to defend this!
Edit: In case anyone else is reading this and wondering how to scout this, for anyone wondering you can always get a scout on this. Here's a few signs 1: the first sign is no gas. 2: No 2nd supply depo (so you will probabaly get the probe into the base with the 13 scout timing, unless they are blocking with the 2nd rax which it then becomes obvious because theres a big fat early 2nd rax there! ) 3: The biggest giveaway, only 1 mineral patch will have 2 scv's on it ... (or there will be an empty mineral patch)
Last edit: 2012-06-21 16:26:30
I'm in the bubblewrap league ... i just keep getting popped
On June 21 2012 10:23 emaster wrote: Wow, a ton of really, really bad responses in here... at least uninformed people who are too lazy to answer your question.
You have a lot of nerve saying that when you yourself didn't watch the replay. It was a gasless Marine/SCV all-in from 2 Raxes, it wasn't the standard 2 Rax, so there is no target firing Marauders with Stalkers.
Well from my PoV, asking how to hold 11/11 with Parting FE and getting an answer - "you should use another build" is kinda bad response.
And yea, topic should be changed to: [H]How to hold 11/11 with Parting style Nexus
cuz it's deluding.
! <3 1A
BronzeKnee United States. June 21 2012 19:29. Posts 2635
On June 21 2012 10:23 emaster wrote: Wow, a ton of really, really bad responses in here... at least uninformed people who are too lazy to answer your question.
You have a lot of nerve saying that when you yourself didn't watch the replay. It was a gasless Marine/SCV all-in from 2 Raxes, it wasn't the standard 2 Rax, so there is no target firing Marauders with Stalkers.
Well from my PoV, asking how to hold 11/11 with Parting FE and getting an answer - "you should use another build" is kinda bad response.
And yea, topic should be changed to: [H]How to hold 11/11 with Parting style Nexus
cuz it's deluding.
Right, so we should tell him to target fire the Marauders with Stalkers when his opponent does an 11/11? Like I said it would be one thing if he said that but watched the replay and pointed out why the responses were bad, but for him to be even more ignorant of the situation...
I think the only response here is that he needs to micro his units better and pull more Probes. He also needs to realize that he will probably lose more games than he wins when he opens with a quick Nexus vs Marine/SCV all-ins. Squirtle just lost a GSL Championship to one and his micro is very good. The build is economic cheese, it is a very risky coin flip that really only makes sense in tournament play.
Hey guys, today i lost a game using this build the opponent did a good push what do you guys can suggest me for defense for a push like this, should i change the bo ?
On June 21 2012 10:23 emaster wrote: Wow, a ton of really, really bad responses in here... at least uninformed people who are too lazy to answer your question.
You have a lot of nerve saying that when you yourself didn't watch the replay. It was a gasless Marine/SCV all-in from 2 Raxes, it wasn't the standard 2 Rax, so there is no target firing Marauders with Stalkers.
Well from my PoV, asking how to hold 11/11 with Parting FE and getting an answer - "you should use another build" is kinda bad response.
And yea, topic should be changed to: [H]How to hold 11/11 with Parting style Nexus
cuz it's deluding.
Right, so we should tell him to target fire the Marauders with Stalkers when his opponent does an 11/11? Like I said it would be one thing if he said that but watched the replay and pointed out why the responses were bad, but for him to be even more ignorant of the situation...
I think the only response here is that he needs to micro his units better and pull more Probes. He also needs to realize that he will probably lose more games than he wins when he opens with a quick Nexus vs Marine/SCV all-ins. Squirtle just lost a GSL Championship to one and his micro is very good. The build is economic cheese, it is a very risky coin flip that really only makes sense in tournament play.
I cannot agree with you. Thought in my opinion It's close to impossibru to hold 11-11 with Partings build.
But really, suggesting completly different build just to be safe from some cheeze in my opinion It's not the same as answering how to react with the build he is already using. The correct answer was this:
On June 21 2012 15:34 Archybaldie wrote: OK watched the replay ... i've been doing this parting expand for a while. I've personally slightly modified it for my own style all i've changed is gas timing (slightly) but in general im doing almost the exact same thing as you. This is the guide right? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341631
1: Pylons 2 and 3 should be IN YOUR BASE! not down the ramp (see 4 as to why). 2: You went for x2 zealots. You should be going zealot stalker (stalkers can be micro'd better and help delay). 3: You have to poke the terran with the zealot/stalker. You can get a ton of information with this. (though in the replay you had all you needed but its still good to poke to learn army positions, or potentially get a marine with micro etc) 4: SAC THE EXPO! for a very early marine/scv all in just sac the nexus and save the probes. Just by the nature of this all in you can't save the expo (unless its a late variant of that all in) but thats ok you should already have the worker advantage. Also if he goes for the nexus you just bought yourself a shit load of time if not then you get spare chrono for units. 5: Fight at your main's ramp and in your main base microing and producing. You can also pull probes ... but make sure to keep some mining so you can make more units. 6: Chrono's on units none on warpgate research. However be careful with your supply the marine/scv all in can mess up pylon timings.
Just remember all you have to do is hold off this attack and you probabaly win (unless you lose all probes ) so do whatever you need to do to defend this!
Edit: In case anyone else is reading this and wondering how to scout this, for anyone wondering you can always get a scout on this. Here's a few signs 1: the first sign is no gas. 2: No 2nd supply depo (so you will probabaly get the probe into the base with the 13 scout timing, unless they are blocking with the 2nd rax which it then becomes obvious because theres a big fat early 2nd rax there! ) 3: The biggest giveaway, only 1 mineral patch will have 2 scv's on it ... (or there will be an empty mineral patch)
Btw thank you Archybaldie.
Last edit: 2012-06-21 19:41:33
! <3 1A
monk United States. June 21 2012 20:33. Posts 6834
I would encourage you to change your build when seeing gas early. Parting ia a build desined to be good against gas-less expands. Therefore it is weak to any other for of early agression. Also there are 3 versions of parting i tried so far
1. the 14 gate 17 nexus .... super greedy and you simply cannot beat early agression if your opponent isnt stupid trying walking up one remp that you can forcefield. hit with 6-7 gates.
2. 13 gate 22-24 nexus hit with 5-6 gates.
3 13 gate 22-24 expand and 30-32 expand again hit with 8-9 gates.
The amout of gates are of course dependable on how much stalkers zlts you make early on. An the timing differ a bit but the main goal is to hit around 9-10 minutes.
OK now back to you ...Parting is designed to beat gasless expos, therefore not good against 2 racks pressure. You should exploid maybe 3 gate sentry or 2 gate robo builds if your oponent s doing 2 racks and you know that as a fact if hes teching you need robo for sure.
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“The only real failure in life is the failure to try.”
emaster United States. June 22 2012 04:32. Posts 32
Omg, soooo much punishment on this thread!!! haha omg hahaha.
Alright, my apologies for not watching the replay. Just watched it.
Other people mentioned the engagement pulling partial probes... yeah that was def. the game losing mistake.
Someone else mentioned getting 2nd zealot before stalker, and yea, that was a bit bad. save your chrono on zealot for a lil bit later so that the chrono doesn't fully help it, but finishes just after cyber is finished so chrono will help stalker too. Another timing that might help, is that if you chrono out a zealot before cyber, you will be fine to chrono out a second zealot before cyber finishes.
You may not wish to delay your cyber like that, thats fine, I've heard this in another thread, I dont remember where, but you can cancel the nexus, and put a 3 pylon block at your ramp. This has problems with not wanting to cancel it, but that leads into another point, your scouting. You saw everything you needed to see whether this was an 11/11 rax all-in but the question was whether you recognized it? only 1/8 patches had a doubled scv on it, while you had 6/8 patches doubled up. Your nexus wasn't gonna be thrown down for another 30+ seconds after you had. Even if he wasn't doing this all-in, you are so far ahead because of worker count you dont need the nexus yet.
Yep. Oh, and upon scouting you should have thrown down second gas an extra gate instead of nex to pump out stalkers asap. Then 445 throw down the 3 pylon block.
TLDR: Might have been able to hold with better timings of gateway units either zealot before cyber chrono out 2 and then stalker as cyber finishes or later chrono to get zealot finish same time cyber does and chrono out that stalker.
Hope that helps!! find a practice partner!!
EDIT: After rereading my post, and watching the replay again, I dont think I emphasized how horrific the micro was. Abandon the natural area completely, retreat to the back of your base, and then wait for stalker/s to come out and target fire marines with it. I would say get a partner, do a 14 gate and just try to hold the marine scv all in. Have the partner do it to you 15 times, and dont try to do this build specifically, do whatever you think you can to hold it. After you learned how to hold it regularly, THEN refine your parting build to hold it.
BTW make your second pylon in range of your buildings, as it was, it WILL get sniped in a lot of occasions, and thats game.
Yeah dude, hope that helps. Hopefully some better players will come by to help. Biggest thing though is to hold it with anybuild first, so you know what its like to hold it. Then try holdign it with 14 gate 17 gas.
Last edit: 2012-06-22 06:38:27
BronzeKnee United States. June 22 2012 05:21. Posts 2635
) so do whatever you need to do to defend this!
