[Note: This thread explores and encompasses the early meta-game of TvZ, the abuses of Queens, the advantages of why Zergs do it, and what Terran can do to pursue early-midgame harrassment/pressure to fight mass queen openers]
Hi TL! I am Zulu,a 1000 point mid-masters Terran player, an avid TL reader, and follow all the major tournaments because i love the game. While i was watching some tournaments like GSL and MLG, i noticed that Terran are struggling to win against Zerg unless they are A LOT more skilled and better than their Zerg opponents. This is due to Zerg being able to hold early Terran aggression more easily without risk. Because of this, Zerg can take advantage of their superior lategame to close out the game. All i have seen lately are Zergs crushing the standard Terran early-midgame push with 4-6 queens plus a handful of lings and then domiinating the lategame with broodlord or ultras. I was inspired to write this after watching Avilo's "Current State of Terran" video blog on youtube which can be found in this link
I am here to open up a discussion about the most recent patch in which the zerg Queen was given a range buff from 3 to 5. If you follow the pro-scene then you will notice that this buff has changed the TvZ meta-game drastically.
Concerning Hellions and Hellion openers: Previously, the ever so popular reactor hellion opening was able to do two very important things. The first and obvious, if the zerg was getting too greedy such as not building a spine or making below minimal defenses, Hellions were able to punish the zerg by doing a runby to kill some drones and force more units from their larvae. The second was to contain creep spread. Recently, hellions are having mixed results in denying creep and also cannot stop the zerg from droning. Many players wonder why hellions are still used after the patch. Hellions still give excellent map control. Beforehand, Terrans used to be rewarded for their APM and speed by "kiting" queens in the prepatch, something which is now gone. The new Queen range buff which has been out for sometime now, allows Zergs to hold off many forms of early Terran aggression whilst skipping spine crawlers and lings all together.
The major points i am addressing due to this patch are: 1. Zergs early game advantage as opposed to survivability 2. risk vs reward with Queens 3. Creep Spread
1. The queen buff was put into the game to help Zergs survive early Terran aggression so they can get into the lategame without dying. Keyword.. "survive". This buff has taken zergs early game survivability and doubled it with the queen range alone. Previous reactor hellion runbys are rare these days unless they are hoarded in masses. The new Queens kill them too fast even if they run into the mineral line to do damage. Since hellions are no longer a big threat, the zerg can safely drone. The way zerg mechanic works is that zerg wants to drone as hard as they can so they can get the economy to kill their opponent when they switch to army production later in the game. This is why zerg as a race has a weaker ealygame than the other races, but has an advantageous lategame; build drones early (although succeptible to many pressures since you want to drone), but dominate later in the game. However, recently it seems the zerg early game has changed from trying to survive, to surviving easily whilst still droning hard. Zergs recently have found that they can skip the standard spine crawler and even lings sometimes just so they can pump more drones. This allows the zerg to get ahead in economy without risking much at all. Recent tournament performance shows top Code S level zergs like Nestea and DRG relying on 6 queen openers vs Terran to defend ALL early Terran pressure. Instead of increasing survivability, the queen range update has given zergs the advantage of Free Droning to get ahead unless the Terran goes all in to punish.
2. Risk vs Reward. What i mean by risk verses reward is; The risk of making more queens vs the reward they give. Starcraft is a game of decisions and everything has a negative side to its positive...Everything except the Queen. The Queen range update pushes Zergs to ONLY make queens in the early game to defend everything. You might ask, "Why?" and "So?" I will explain. As mentioned before, Zerg relies on droning and larvae. The more you drone, the bigger the economy, the faster you get to your comfortable lategame. Previously, Zergs had to choose between drones or lings, drones or spines, drones or roaches to defend terran harrass. Not anymore. Now it is Drone only. Since queens can defend almost every sort of pressure, Zergs rely on them. Code S zergs are using mass queen openers if you are looking to question my source. The funny thing is that QUEENS DON'T USE UP LARVAE. Yes, Zergs go these 6 or 8 queen openers because not only can they defend against early units and spread creep, but they do not cost larvae. Instead of making 4-10 lings for defense, or a spine or two, or roaches, zergs can take all those larvae that used to be units in the pre-patch and can now turn those all into more drones. The risk? No risk, because larvae is still spent all on drones while maintaining defenses with your Queens. I question whether this is the way ZvT is supposed to be or if it is too powerful in terms of Zerg's increased economy strength coupled with their increased survivability in the new patch.
3. The thing that most players definitely see more of these days... CREEP. Yes, since the zerg metagame has shifted towards mass queen openers because of the reasons stated above, Terrans have been seeing half the map covered in creep BEFORE their first push. This is simply ridiculous. Terran, revered by everyone as the race with the strongest earlygame, cannot even make a push in the early game without risking their army in their Superior stage of the game. It takes 3-4 scans to kill most of the creep in the first push and in the lategame, 5-6 scans. Is this explosion of creep in TvZ too strong? Creep gives the zerg vision, movement speed, and forces scans from the terran (which equals less MULES) indirectly adding salt to the Terrans already weaker economy. Honestly, when is the last time you have seen a pro Terran player beat a Zerg of equal skill level in the early-mid game, letalone the lategame these days? Zergs have been crushing face since this patch. I love the addition of Zergs starting to add mass creep spread and queens to their style of play, but the question is still raised "is it OP/too strong?"
Thank you for reading my discussion, i would love to hear current theories, and comments on the Queen and its range update by fellow Terrans, Zergs, and my dear TL peers. If this thread gains popularity i will add a solutions and counter-arguments section in the discussion.
Solutions: 1. The QXC Bunker Creep contain! - If you havent checked it out, Complexity QXC's new innovative creep contain bunker is one of the few great ideas that has not gained much popularity yet in TvZ. Please check it out as it is awesome! Click Here! The QXC-Bunker - A New Way to Contain Creep! Counter Argument: 1. "If Zerg is investing so much into queens, Terran can do a Triple Orbital build to get a faster third to get ahead." - Yes, but this thread is talking about how terran can use their early-midgame army to punish Zerg mass queen. But for the sake of argument, Triple CC is a great build however, the goal of Triple CC is to get ahead economically in the midgame so you can kill the zerg in his lategame. Yes, Kill the Zerg in his LATEGAME. Ironic because lategame is Terrans weakest and Zergs strongest. Interestingly enough even with Triple CC builds, it puts Terran in a much better position for the lategame, but i still would not give them an advantage. I see Terran as equal to the Zerg if they can get away with greedy triple CC builds just because zergs broodlord infestor corruptor army is so strong compared to Terran lategame composition. Also, by going fast Triple Orbital, you allow the zerg to expand his creep to your frontdoor and rush freely to broodlord infestor. Before anyone else trys to argue that Triple CC is the counter, i want to reiterate that this thread is about what Terran can do in the early to midgame to punish a mass Queen opener from the Zerg. Not about what lategame options they have.
2. "Terrans are still doing reactored hellion builds! They need to innovate or create new builds to adapt to the new Zerg style of play." Now although it seems like top Terrans are still sticking to this "old" build, lets look at it from a different perspective. In the past Terran as a race has been the quickest at adapting to the patches whether it be the Ghost nerf, stim nerf, or any other nerf targeted at Terran to weaken it. One month has past and top Terrans have still done little to nothing to counter-act queen play. People are saying that reactor hellions must be switched out for other builds and units, but what other Terran units can give map control while still being effective as a soft form of creep deny AND can be still used in the midgame army composition? After reading many posts and thinking about this a lot, The truth is that yes, hellions are not as good, but they are still the best option Terran has for early game. No form of ground unit except the hellion can combat early speedlings for mapcontrol and banshees are countered by queens. Hellions can atleast snipe some tumors if possible, deny speedlings, obtain map control, and be added effectively into the midgame army composition. They are also highly effective at scouting incoming roach pressures well before they hit the main base, giving Terran the time to build their bunkers for defense. These multitude of reasons are why Terrans still use hellions after the patch.
On June 20 2012 16:10 stalife wrote: I don't think the queen range is that bad to be honest (terran player here). I think the queen range buff actually revealed a rather hidden fault in the tvz matchup that was there before. The problem is that if terran allows zerg to macro up (even if terran were to macro up with 3 cc as well), zerg hits the max army timing (with hive tech) way too fast. Before the queen nerf, early aggression meant that zergs had to spend more resources on defenses because one hellion run by meant that queens cannot hit well-micro'ed hellions. This early aggression lead to more of a even footing on the overall matchup, therefore giving somewhat of an illusion that tvz is "balanced"
But I disagree with this idea that terran has to do something before the 12 minute mark to slow down zerg. It should be more or less even throughout all stages of the game. Terrans should not rely on gimmicky strats to slow down zerg. It sucks as a terran to rely on cheesy strats to gain some advantage early on... and on the other hand it sucks as a zerg to constantly battle all ins and coin flip on what defense to make. So in that regard, I fully support the queen range buff.
The real problem is that the zergs can safely get to hive tech with one single unit = infestors. They shut down virtually everything terran can throw at in the mid game with high cost efficiency that by hive hits at 12 minute mark, zergs can pop out 12 ultralisks and run over terran. This is ridiculous game design. The fungal growth is an overpowered ability that is more cost efficient than any other unit in the game. It has the ability to immobilize and kill units. This is not seen in any other races. Protoss has sentries that can immobilize, but not kill (unless you have a shit ton). Protoss has HTs that can kill AOE. With sentries and HTs, you can immobilize and kill (but it requires some decent clickings, and it's certainly not one single click). For terrans, you have ghosts. They can snipe (no AOE) to kill, but that's been nerfed. They can do AOE with EMP, but it does not kill regardless of how many EMPs you fire. Terrans however do have ravens that do AOE damage, but it does not immobilize the target. If it can somehow immobilize the target and hit it 100% of the time, sure it would be useful like the infestor, except it costs more gas + energy, and it's not instant hit like fungals.
I'm glad that the queen buff was introduced that the terrans no longer resort to early shenanigans to gain advantage. Before, the queens would be afraid to come out to spread out creep. Now they just come out to the open to spread creep because they no longer get countered by hellions. It's a right step forward.
On June 20 2012 17:30 Type|NarutO wrote: I for my part who would always choose the macro game over any other strategy do believe that the range buff in particular was not needed. Hellions were no immediate thread that would lead the Terran to gain an insurmountable advantage early on, rather a threat to the Zerg.
Most Zergs in the current phase went for the fast double evolution chamber and following things worked well even against well controlled hellions:
- make 1 additional queen and move it along the spinecrawler to gain space & allow creepspread - make 4-6 roaches to gain space and allow mapcontrol
I understand that you should not be forced to react in only 1 way by any means, because that will lead to your opponent having an advantage over you just for the reason he doesn't have to scout to actually know what you have to do.
Now we have a queen range buff with not just 4, but 5 range. Hellions have 6 range with their splash attack, but they can only attack targets in the range of 5. If Zergs want to creepspread, they still have to make the additional queen, but it takes no effort at all to drive away the hellions which should never happen in a game on high level. Hellions are still strong to gain and hold mapcontrol, but they are not good anymore to prevent creep spreading, because they can't deny the queens.
Before the nerf, the absolute map control and threat hellions granted Terran often led to powerful timings that are hard to scout for Zerg, now Zerg has the option to gain space and thus sneak out zerglings and gain information (in addition faster overlords) to spot incoming timings. Zerg never had a problem with not being able to defend allins, but with getting information to know they have to defend.
As Terran, a one who likes to macro I feel I have no option against Zerg right now. A good zerg will always be able to get a 3rd base relatively easy and more secure/faster than before. In addition to that, faster overlords usually lead to an ability to scout even though thats something a Terran could possibly deny, but still Zerg has a very good option to gain information and set up for possible timings now. Not just mapcontrol and denying creep is harder, but also hitting crucial timings.
How am I supposed to stop Zerg if I cannot put hurt on his economy. Once infestors hit the field, a good Zerg will have enough lings and options to spot and clear drops cost-efficient and even if not - the main attack can be defended or stalled cost-efficient / long enough.
I for my part, often choose to macro against it because I've learned the hard way, infestors are a defensive unit and it doesn't work to push them if you are no MMA with a multitasking like him. Ofcourse thats my own fault, but back to the macro. I often still have map presence with hellions and that "before nerf" timing-push towards the 3rd. I can't kill it now, but I can still show myself on the map. While doing that, I can set up my 3rd and possibly even 4th base while upgrading. That would put me in an advantageous position over Zerg one would think, but the truth is, it really doesn't.
3 fully saturated bases with ~75-80 workers will be near the amount of maximum saturation / income for Zerg. A 4th base would only mean a few more larvae and gasincome. While this is good, the Zerg can easily max out and get high tech units even on 3 bases, delaying his 4th base. While I can also get all my stuff, I feel that the Zerg hits a more dangerous army composition while he is building up, which should never happen or better spoken which Terran should never let happen.
Due to the increased information and defensive ability of Zerg, now Terrans cannot pressure and pick apart Zerg "AS EASILY" as before, if at all... Once Zerg has established a good infestor count which isn't too hard, because they only spend gas on upgrades rather than on anything else, your options to push him without a good tank count is very limited... once ultralisks hit the field, you have to be defensive.
Zerg will nearly ALWAYS be ahead on upgrades, so... right now, I feel Zerg is a tad to save and can play careless while Terran has to be spot on with everything, while still trying to be greedy. I'm not saying TvZ is unplayable by any means, but it certainly became very tricky and very hard by now.
I believe it is part of making the match up better, it certainly improved aspects of the early game, the trouble is it's hard for most people to understand this without rallying behind their own race and being biased.
It's more for the greater good of the game, especially when you take into consideration some of Blizzard's plans for Terran in HOTS. It is very much just a piece of the puzzle though, in a way it's necessary to do things this way so they can push things back the other way after seeing how the game been affected.
Subtle changes are absolutely the name of the game and I think most game developers go too far too quickly and they do that too often (hello Riot Games!). They probably could have given a prospective Queen change more time to be played with in testing while rolling out the Overlord speed change immediately.
There's no doubt that Terran players have suffered some annoying nerfs, but it's always good to have a sense of perspective. Most nerfs don't come along in games without reason and the Terran race has been the most versatile, most popular, strongest and most successful race in the short history of SC2 for a longer period than any other race. This doesn't mean I think everyone should have a turn at being OP, I don't think any race should be OP. This thread is largely populated with silly short sighted knee jerk opinions and heavily biased opinions, these people form the "your race was strong for a year so mine deserves to be strong now" argument army.
The patch itself was not necessarily too drastic, it was more that the patch coincided with some dramatic shifts in Zerg playing styles against Terran and it's shaken things up dramatically as a result. It would be very wrong and short sighted to blame only the patch for how the match up is played right now, but it's certainly a contributing factor.
It's a habit of gamers to write off units/skills/abilities/features/items when they get nerfed, regardless of the reasons for the nerf or the severity of it. To keep it brief I'll just say that the Hellion, Ghost and Reaper are good examples of this, as well as Neural Parasite to give an example from another race. With time they usually learn to reassess things and try to use them again, but that can often take some time. We're only just seeing NP start to receive more attention and usage from certain players.
Ultimately I just think the patch is one step in solving the puzzle and improving the match up. It's likely that this change has had the desired effect on the early game which should pave the way for some tweaks on some of the lesser used late game Terran units, which is something I'd like to see. No one should forget the important effect the patch has appeared to have on ZvZ either, it's fast becoming the most exciting and enjoyable mirror match.
On June 20 2012 22:24 mrlie3 wrote: Great OP, but one thing is missing in this: Overlord speed buff.
If you look at both queen range buff and overlord speed buff independently, they seem okay for balancing and only fixes minor issues: better protection against early aggression and better scouting. However, I think overlord buff had a MAJOR effect on TvZ as it compliments queen buffs. How?
First, as OP said, queen range buff enabled zerg to mass up queens without sacrificing drone productions, so zerg can get ahead in mid and late games. Then what strategy can terran do to KILL this mass queen no gas 3 hatch strategy? Yes, as OP also mentioned, it is any forms of allin from terran. eg. 1111 proxy rax scv allin, mass hellion allin, marauder/hellion allin, 4+ rax allin etc. All of these strategy punishes zerg for delaying gas and not getting any speedlings and/or banelings to counter them.
Now here comes the funny part: overlord speed buff enabled zerg to scout these allins much, much easier! So any sensible zergs, upon scouting most of these allins, will make spine crawlers and lings instead of drones to anticipate the allin, defend with 6+ queens, and win the game. So as you can see, two buffs, when it seemed okay individually, basically broke the current TvZ metagame. If terran has no way of punishing zerg going economic cheese, then its only option is now tripple CC build, which ironically is super weak to any zerg allins. Even without allins, zergs can now comfortably play zvt knowing that terran only has this build against theirs, so they will almost always force zvt to be late game scenario, which generally favours zerg.
And as stalife said, infestors are way, way too efficient unit in the mid game. So guess what? zergs now have, when played decently, has very high chance of defending early-game allins with queen, mid-game aggression with infestors, and win late-game with broodlord/corruptor/infestor composition. As many code S pros pointed out, terran cannot win against zerg if they are on equal level of skills for this particular reason.
I sincerely hope there is at least some buff to terran or rollback of queen range (or even to 4, so we can AT LEAST kite them) or nerf of infestor in the future.
The Root! Many of you may be thinking... What is the problem of letting both races reach their respective lategames? If zerg masses queens, but Terran expands, then Terran should be ahead in the lategame if im not mistaken. After reading many posts, it has occurred to me that the root of this discussion lies in the unaddressed Terran lategame. It is undisputed that Zerg has a much easier time "surviving" the early-midgame than pre-patch, allowing them to more or less safely reach the lategame. Now many people have stated Terran can take fast thirds to counter the mass queen opener in order to get ahead, but why does it still feel like even if Terrans have a strong lead, they still get vaporized by the Zerg lategame unless their ID is MarineKing Prime? Terrans strength is the early-mid game, but nowadays zergs just build queens and they are considered safe from all early-midgame pressures unless it is an all in (in most cases). As SteakLighT mentions in his post, the queen range update revealed the Lack of Terran lategame and it really draws the race short as they still cannot deal with the maxed Zerg army of Broodlord infestor corruptor. Ghosts are still great, but they cannot kill Broodlords with snipe alone due to previous patches. Some have argued for more Raven innovation, but the truth is that Hunter Seeker Missle is outranged greatly by fungal growth and a pro-level zerg would never miss their fungal or rarely be out of position for this to happen. Thus said, Ghosts must first be acquired to EMP infestors and then ravens can use their HSM. This can be viable, but in a practical sense, the time required to obtain both ghosts AND ravens in numbers with energy in time to deal with the now lategame zerg meta of 14-18min Hive is not possible. Terran will die in the transition phase. Thus, unless Terran lategame is further looked at by Blizzard, the Root of the problem still stems into the entire matchup leading up to lategame. Because of race mechanics, Terran MUST force zerg to build atleast some units or kill some of drones in order for the game to stay even. However, with the new queen range, Queens have been able to fend off almost all pressures/harrasses which allow them to drone into their comfortable lategame. Conclusion: Terran lategame unnaddresed or still unfigured out. Thoughts? Thank you for your time TL readers!
Last edit: 2012-06-22 12:08:35
johnnywup United States. June 20 2012 14:24. Posts 2743
Point 3 is a little off-point. The ridiculous creep spread just makes getting that third base easier and safer, which is a huge component of the 'nothing but drone till 80' problem. Previously they'd have to make units to clear rocks or deflect midgame pushes that might be unseen, but now the creep highway between nat and third and vision across half the map removes a lot of the risk involved.
Everything else is spot on.
more koreans is a good thing! || Yᵒᵘ Oᶰˡʸ Lᶤᵛᵉ Oᶰᶜᵉ
sam05396 United States. June 20 2012 14:28. Posts 783
At first i thought that this plus 2 range would not make that big of a difference, but now it is so much harder to beat zerg and it seems like they can just hide behind 6 queens and go mass drones. So naturally most terrans have been playing very greedy to keep up with the economy/upgrades but it also seems like it is so easy to go into and roach ling bane all in without being scouted. I have seen people going into roach ling bane all in from 2 base lair, from double evo, from a quick third, it can just come out of so many things and seems impossible to scout correctly at this point. But i think we will start seeing more early timings with marauders involved to fight queens, but we just have to continue to wait for meta game shifts to truly tell.
Lavit2099 United States. June 20 2012 14:28. Posts 365
Terrans aren't trying new things. They're doing the same builds now as they were months ago, against Z and P. It seems like with changes, the other two races try to adapt and do new things while Terrans are sitting back and trying to force the older things to work (complain about 2 hellions not giving you map control and creep denial, for instance).
I'm a big IMMvp fan, but I honestly think the only reason he won last season's GSL is because he is a better player with more experience. Taking the races out of the picture, he has the cutthroat attitude needed to perform well because it doesn't matter HOW you will, just that you win.
Artosis also said something on tonight's SotG that to me makes a lot of sense. People are bombarded with a billion tournaments so they're less inclined to think about evolving the metagame and instead worry about what builds can I use right NOW to let me win so I can take home more money.
People don't realize how much it has change things. Perrhaps it's not imbalanced, but it's basicly the same as if blizzard made FFE against Zerg bad. Other things probbaly exist and are good, but it take some time to find the best one.
There are no secrets to success. It is the result of preparation, hard work, and learning from failure.
On June 20 2012 14:24 johnnywup wrote: still too early to tell imo, terrans need to learn different openers besides hellions which they haven't really yet
The Terran race has used some of the most innovative and diverse strategies and openers. Reaper openers, nerfed. All sort of Marine-Aggro 2Rax builds, nerfed Rax Build time/Bunker Build Time/Stim Timing. Banshee openers -> Quicker Spore Root. Hellion BF Nerf. Now a Queen buff to deal with as well. And keep in mind, these are just the opening builds that were affected. This isn't even including the Siege Tank nerfs, Ghost nerf, Thor nerf.
I have to say with all the "Let the metagame play out, they'll learn out to adapt". Terrans have adapted many times throughout most of the patches to changes (read: Nerfs). But once anything that is remotely even decent is found, it's nerfed into the ground.
TitleRug United States. June 20 2012 14:31. Posts 651
I think that blizzard was too overeager in buffing zerg. They should have done one buff at a time to see what changes in the metagame. They should have just done the overlord buff and then later on if necessary done the queen buff.
HolyArrow United States. June 20 2012 14:32. Posts 6149
I'm personally kind of tired of this "Terran can't beat Zerg unless they're a lot more skilled" rhetoric. I saw it before when Protoss was the focus of Terran complaints, and now I'm seeing it again. I wish Terrans would give more credit to their opponents. It sets a sour tone for what should be a productive discussion regarding balance. I'm a Toss player myself so I don't have much to add to the actual debate regarding the matchup, but I just wanted to point that out.
Back when Terrans were doing really well in Korea last year, a lot of people liked to say, "Welp, I guess Terran players are just more skilled". Now that Blizzard has tried to balance the game and things are harder for Terran, the mindset is that Terran players are still "more skilled", but the game is just ridiculously unfair and it takes a far more skilled Terran to beat a Zerg/Protoss. Bleh.
It's fine on smaller maps, but on the bigger ones... it's too good. Only 3CC greedy builds can even compete and once they see that (with quicker Ovvies now) they can either be greedier, roachlingbust you or make 30 mutas at once or something.
"If you don't give a shit which gum you buy, get stride" - Tyler
Yes hellions have been the standard for too long, even in the recent patch. I know i talked about hellions a lot, by my main point is the Queen. Discounting hellions for a bit, even with marine pressures and other harrass, zerg queens still defend with ease. One counter to the massing of early queens are fast Triple Orbital builds. Yes, it puts the Terran ahead with a faster third, but it is still undisputed that Zerg has a much stronger lategame so i am just trying to think of EARLY counters or strategies that can be viable against the new "mass queen defend all" style.
Like you said in the title, it has only been a month or so which means there is still plenty of time for Terran to evolve their play accordingly. Things like fast triple orbital easily keep the Terran on equal economic footing (impression I get from watching pro games) and there will be good early strategies found, there was good pressure before reactor hellion and I'm sure there will soon be good pressure again if reactor hellion falls by the wayside.
Maybe they can revert the blueflame nerf since the Queendralisk pwns them currently.
Blizzard has 5 options in my opinion. Buff Terran early game (As if this is blizzard we are talking about) likeliness 0/10 Nerf Zerg early game (revert queen change or maybe change creep somehow) likeliness 2/10 Buff Terran late game (Raven HS cast range to something a little more that 6 which is the range of a marine while fungal has range 9 with radius 2 T.T ) likeliness 5/10 Nerf Zerg late game (Fungal radius to 1.5 from 2 to match EMP and Storm) likeliness 3/10
Continuing on will buisness as using aka making Terran a hell of a lot harder that it's counterparts because of the stigma of Terran op that permeates the community because of the beta and the dominance of Korean terrans in tournaments who actually just figured the game and race out pretty well
"Protoss is really strong recently. Perhaps, it's time for there to be some changes for Terran." -MMA
USvBleakill Germany. June 20 2012 14:40. Posts 296
On June 20 2012 14:28 lavit2099 wrote: Terrans aren't trying new things. They're doing the same builds now as they were months ago, against Z and P. It seems like with changes, the other two races try to adapt and do new things while Terrans are sitting back and trying to force the older things to work (complain about 2 hellions not giving you map control and creep denial, for instance).
changes are not nurfes. Honestly i cant remember a single P or Z nerf since khaldarin amulet.
On June 20 2012 14:36 BBQSAC wrote: Like you said in the title, it has only been a month or so which means there is still plenty of time for Terran to evolve their play accordingly. Things like fast triple orbital easily keep the Terran on equal economic footing (impression I get from watching pro games) and there will be good early strategies found, there was good pressure before reactor hellion and I'm sure there will soon be good pressure again if reactor hellion falls by the wayside.
That was when Bio pressure was viable. But that has been nerfed in various ways. Supply before Barracks, Barracks build time, Bunker build time. Stim research timing increase. Banshee -> Spore Root. BF Hellions nerf.
There's this odd belief that Zerg players have seemingly just "adapted" to the metagame and dealt with these strategies some how, and that's why they're not used. But we forget how much Blizzard has helped in the process in the form of buffs/nerfs. Now with the smaller maps removed, early aggro or pressure has become even more difficult.
CaptainCharisma New Zealand. June 20 2012 14:45. Posts 808
TvZ win rate was pretty good for a long time. Blizzard decide to change the game in Zerg's favour for no particular reason, but the stock response from non-terrans is just "learn to change up your game".