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 Masvidal Korea (South). June 21 2012 06:05. Posts 213 | Profile # |
Intro
This build was taken directly from MaNa vs Stephano (Game 1), Dreamhack. I watched the game over and over and studied it, making some necessary inferences as I can't read minds. This is meant to be used against a 3 Hatch before gas build, so if you scout otherwise, you will have to freestyle it and adjust accordingly. The build is a 2-base timing with a little more economy behind it than most 2-base builds that would be considered completely “all-in” and some subtle ways to slow down the Zerg player's econ boom.
Opening Build
**Use Chronos on Probes until you hit saturation on both bases – you are aiming for 19 on minerals at each base, plus 6 on gas at each base (50 overall), with 1 or 2 extra for proxy pylons, so 51-52 total**
9 – Pylon, probe scout
15 – Forge
16 – (or whenever your probe finds his base) Pylon block his natural. Start the pylon before you even go into his base; if you see him mining gas or he has really early lings out, cancel it. Otherwise, leave it going until lings start hitting it. If it's almost done when lings hit it, let it finish up. It's worth paying 100 minerals to delay his expansion for as long as you can. The next pylon timing may vary from what's in this guide, depending on when his lings pop out. Just avoid being pylon blocked if at all possible. Go to his third and try to pylon block it; if you can't, no big deal, if you can, you delayed him some more, but don't let it finish, as another 100 minerals would be a waste as his lings are much closer to completion. Either way, try to get the probe home safely, as always!
19 – Nexus
20 – Gateway
22 – Cannon
22 – Pylon
-- You may have to build another Pylon because your supply limit is artificially high due to the inevitable loss of the Pylon at his natural. Save this at least until you get your 2 assimilators started, if you can.
23 – Gas (1), (2)
24 – Cybernetics Core
29 – Zealot. When this is done, send it to clear out any watchtowers and hold it there for now.
Note: When you hit 16 probes on your main minerals (and the 6 on gas), rally the nexus to your natural.
Mid-game Setup
– With your first 100 gas, research +1 Ground Weapons.
– Next 50 gas, start WG research.
– Next 50 gas, make a Stalker. Send it out to meet the Zealot and control the center.
– Take gas (3), (4) just as your natural reaches OPTIMAL (16) mineral saturation. This should be around the 40 supply mark, give or take. You aren't quite ready to cut probes yet, but close. Once you have 22 probes at the natural (16 on minerals, 6 on gas), have your main nexus switch rally point back on minerals in your main. Let each Nexus complete THREE more rounds of probes, one extra (two if you like) for proxy pylons, THEN stop probe production.
– When your Stalker is complete, move it and a Probe to your Zealot. At this point, add a Robotics Facility, Gateways (2), (3), (4), and make a Sentry. When your Stalker and Probe arrive, move to a spot between his natural and third, plant a proxy pylon close to the creep equidistant from the natural and third, and poke whichever you have easier access to with the Zealot and Stalker. The goal of this is to bait him into spending larva that could be spent on economy on units. Two situations could result from this.
Situation A) He does “take the bait”. Response: Retreat whatever units you have left and cancel the pylon to recoup the mineral cost, and (this is important) HIDE THE PROBE THAT BUILT IT (this will come in handy later) and continue following this guide. You slowed down his droning, forced some units, and most likely got him to put down his Roach Warren a tad earlier than he would have liked.
Situation B) He ignores the pressure and “calls your bluff”, continuing his droning and only sending a few lings to clean up your Stalker and Zealot. Response: You have the option to switch into “non-bluff mode”; you have your 2-4th Warp Gates almost done, and a Robo nearing completion as well. Start 4-gate pressure, chrono out an Immortal followed by a warp-prism (or the other way around), and do a lot of damage, being careful not to over-commit. If he completely thought it was a bluff and didn't make a Roach Warren and didn't even make units, you should be able to nearly kill him, or at least cripple him. If he ignores the pressure at first but eventually starts making units to kill your attack, do as much damage as you can without over-committing, leave before it turns into a situation where you are no longer trading effectively (making sure to save any expensive units you brought into the fight such as Warp Prism, Immortal, & Sentries if at all possible), go home, and continue to follow the guide if you feel you either got ahead or broke even but delayed him a bit.
Closing It Out
*This assumes the Zerg played it safe and something along the lines of situation “A” transpired*
– @ Robotics Facility complete, make an Immortal (you should be around 50 supply, give or take, but definitely in the neighborhood). You should have a probe (or two if you really like to play it safe) hidden somewhere around his third, but not too near so as to be likely to be scouted.
– Warp in Sentry (2) with your next 100 gas.
– Make Gateways (5), (6) with the next 300 minerals. With the next 100 gas, start +1 Ground Armor. You should be around 60 supply, slightly past the 8 minute mark, and your first Immortal should be almost done. Once you stop probe production (should be coming up very soon) you can spend your chronoboost on your Robotics Facility and/or Warp Gates. +1/+1 should finish in time for the attack without chronoboost, so you can spend it on getting Immortals out or speeding up WG cooldown.
– @ First Immortal done, make Immortal (2).
– Warp in Sentries (3), (4), (5), (6) as soon as you have the gas
– Next 300 Minerals, make Gateways (7), (8)
– @ Second Immortal complete, make Warp Prism & warp in Sentry (7)
– You should be at around 74-76 supply and at 9:15 to 9:30 mark with 2 Immortals, 7 Sentries, and possibly a Stalker and/or Zealot left over from the initial poke. Your 7th and 8th gates will have just been started, and the Warp Prism and +1 Armor will be less than halfway done, depending on chronoboost.
At this point, you want to move out toward the Zerg third, bringing a probe along with you, and with the probe you have hidden at his base, you want to make a proxy pylon that is somewhat close to his third, but far enough away so as not to be in danger of being spotted. Queue up an Observer to be built as soon as the Warp Prism comes out and rally the Robo to the Zerg third. An observer will be very handy if you arrive and find that he has burrow; if he does and you didn't make an observer, you will most likely lose the fight to burrow micro and lose the game.
As your army arrives, start warping in Zealots and/or Stalkers; this should depend on the Zerg's composition. If it is Roach heavy, you want a round of Zealots then basically just Stalkers. If he has a lot of lings, you want to mix it up pretty evenly. This part is based on feel. At around the 10 minute mark, your army should be meeting up with the units you warped in just as they come out. Wait a few moments for +1 armor to finish, and hit his third. Make a 2nd proxy pylon closer to the engagement for closer reinforcements.
Your Warp Prism will meet up with your army around this time. Use it to micro Immortals and to lift and Sentries as soon as they get focused on to keep your sentry count up. The Warp Prism should be right behind the front line, so any Zealots you warp in will be between your ranged army and his lings to form a buffer zone, and your Immortals/Sentries can get in it even if it's deployed and warping in units. Any sentries that die need to be replaced ASAP; otherwise, your warp-ins should be Stalkers or Zealots, depending on what you feel you need. Keep Zealots between your army and the zerglings, use forcefields and guardian shield as necessary, and if he has a lot of lings and you failed to keep your sentry count sufficiently high to have enough force fields to keep the lings off of you, you will have to warp in Zealots to replenish the buffer zone between your army and the Zerglings. Focus fire Roaches with the Immortals and Stalkers and keep up on the Warp Prism micro.
Contingency
After you kill the 3rd, start a Twilight Council for insurance; if he somehow pushes you off of his natural or pushes you back, you can chrono out blink (and start +2 weapons, money permitting) and keep up the pressure by elevatoring sentries into his main, forcefielding the ramp and blinking up. Alternatively, you can send Immortals and stalkers to the natural while you load up sentries into the warp prism, forcefield the ramp, deploy and warp in zealots to kill/chase his drones/queen around, which should at the very least slow down his production.
MaNa started his Twilight before approaching the natural of Stephano, and I thought this was a very good safety measure just in case he couldn't kill him outright. Blink and advanced ground weapon upgrades would have allowed him many more pressure options had Stephano not gged and managed to hold him off, and he took a TC because it is much more advantageous to keep the situation as 2 base Protoss v 2 base Zerg and wait for an upgrade or two to allow further pressure to whittle the Zerg down and finish him off than to retreat and take a 3rd, thus allowing the Zerg to take more bases and possibly reset any advantage you gained. In the event that this actually comes into play, you have to maintain pressure and deny any expansion.
For those that want it, the following is the extended build order based on supply, rather than relative timings, which you would obtain from a replay:
+ Show Spoiler +9 - Pylon, probe scout
15 - Forge
16 - Pylon block Zerg natural, send probe to 3rd to delay
19 - Nexus
20 - Gateway
22 - Cannon
22 - Pylon
23 - Assimilator (1), (2)
24 - Cybernetics Core
29 - Zealot - Send to clear Watchtower(s)
31 - +1 Ground Weapons
33 - Warp Gate Research
33 - Pylon
36 - Stalker - When done, send with a probe and your Zealot to enemy nat/3rd
39 - Pylon
40 - Assimilator (3), (4)
43 - Robotics Facility
43 - Sentry
46 - Gateway (2), (3), (4)
49 - Pylon
49 - Pylon (proxy), Poke Z with Stalker & Zealot. Cancel Proxy Pylon just before completion. Hide probe.
50 - Immortal
55 - Pylon
56 - Sentry (2)
60 - Gateway (5), (6)
60 - +1 Ground Armor
61 - Stop probe production (assuming your Zealot died. If it & Stalker still alive, stop at 63).
60 - Immortal (2)
64 - Sentry (3), (4)
68 - Sentry (5), (6)
72 - Gateway (7), (8), move out with army.
72 - Pylon
72 - Warp Prism
74 - Sentry (7)
78 - Pylon (proxy) with hidden probe
* Warp in Zealots, Stalkers at proxlon
* Attack 3rd, make 2nd proxlon
*Continue warping in Zealot, Stalker, replace any lost sentries by warping another in
*Kill 3rd, make Twilight Council
*Attack Zerg natural, wait until he types "gg" or rages
*When he types "gg" and leaves, press F10 and "S" to leave game and collect points.
*Click button to search for game. If opponent is Zerg, repeat.
Disclaimer :-P
This is my first guide; I decided to put it up after seeing the [D] thread regarding MaNa's 2-0 victory over Stephano, an unlikely triumph over the dreaded “Stephano Style” ZvP performed by the ZvP master himself. If you don't like this guide, blame me and my inability to write a decent guide and/or my unwillingness to reveal any of my SC2 Ids and thus lack of demonstrative replays, but no matter my skill, nothing I could do could compare to MaNa's own execution, the mastermind behind the build. If you do like the guide and find it helpful and/or informative, all credit goes to mouz.MaNa and Mill.Stephano, two excellent players with revolutionary insight into the PvZ matchup.
Also, please note that this is a somewhat micro-intensive build.
I spent yesterday watching Game 1 and studying it over and over again to come up with this and working it out myself for my own personal use; this evening and tomorrow I will be doing the same with MaNa vs Stephano Game 2, so if anyone likes this let me know and I will post up what I come up with from MaNa's strategy in Game 2. Hope you enjoy, and any feedback is welcome, negative and positive alike. Game 2 is the same style, mana just takes the liberty of going 17 forge and 21 nex/gate/cannon, and applies 4-gate pressure and leads into the immortal sentry push which is a bit later than game 1 because of the earlier pressure, but it paid off for sure, as did significantly delaying both stephano's natural and third.
Resources
DreamHack Semifinals Game 1, in which MaNa utilizes this build.
mouz.MaNa vs Mill.Stephano Game 1 VoD
DreamHack Semifinals Game 2; same build, just with early adjustments due to successful double pylon block, and nice 4-Gate pressure. Check the rep out, definitely a good display of the flexibility of the build. Replay!
Replay of Mana vs Stephano Game 2
Replay of TL post and Masters Protoss Dirichlet executing the build.
On June 25 2012 01:02 Dirichlet wrote:Here is a replay of me doing this build at a mid masters level. The level is obviously not super high, but it's not terrible. http://drop.sc/204024
Thanks to Dirichlet for posting up!
MaNa executes and explains this build on his stream (courtesy of MaNa and cassurai).
On June 27 2012 07:56 cassurai wrote:http://www.twitch.tv/mouzmana/b/322755867From Mana's stream last night, there is a game at 23:00 on Daybreak where MaNa did this again on the ladder. He did a fake 4 gate pressure before moving out with 2 Immortals and tons of Sentries. After the game, at 31:20, he loads the replay and analyses the game, explaining to viewers what happened, and what were the Zerg's mistakes.
Much thanks to cassuarai for finding this!Last edit: 2012-06-28 02:38:01 |
| | "Teamliquid is a place for starcraft, not boobs." -autoexec |
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| Mikelius Germany. June 21 2012 06:27. Posts 498 | Profile # |
| Please try to upload a couple of replays or link to the VODs for those who couldn't catch the games. |
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| Pchiit France. June 21 2012 06:30. Posts 19 | Profile # |
| Thanks for this guide ! and agree withe Mikelius, add some replay if its possible ! |
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 Berceno Spain. June 21 2012 06:33. Posts 390 | Profile # |
| yea, I was really waiting for this guide, I will read it now |
| | protoss living in da ghetto |
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| Siggeh Norway. June 21 2012 06:37. Posts 66 | Profile # |
| May I ask what is the best counter to this build? I lose to this build quite often in ladder. |
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| craziekev Canada. June 21 2012 06:38. Posts 61 | Profile # |
| Awesome post. Glad there are people who take the time to watch the replays of pros and textify the build order. :D Hopefully you can post the replays soon enough so we can see it in action. ( For those who don't like to search ) |
| | a good defense makes a great offense |
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| Aelfric Turkey. June 21 2012 06:49. Posts 876 | Profile Blog # |
| Adding some replays really would be nice... |
| | Tomorrow never comes until its too late... |
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| Wingblade United States. June 21 2012 06:49. Posts 736 | Profile # |
On June 21 2012 06:37 Siggeh wrote:
May I ask what is the best counter to this build? I lose to this build quite often in ladder.
I would say fast infestors, or a wall of spine crawlers. I've only lost doing this to a ton of spines, or someone who went ling/infestor. I don't know if mutas off 3 base come fast enough, but if they can, mutas can be effective as well. |
| | "Please Protoss student, recite the alphabet." "A." GO Labyrinth! |
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| Masvidal Korea (South). June 21 2012 07:02. Posts 213 | Profile # |
| I don't like to upload replays of myself, unfortunately, because I always keep my ladder ID(s) private, but I will upload the original VoD to youtube and link in the OP. |
| | "Teamliquid is a place for starcraft, not boobs." -autoexec |
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| Aelfric Turkey. June 21 2012 07:19. Posts 876 | Profile Blog # |
On June 21 2012 07:02 Masvidal wrote:
I don't like to upload replays of myself, unfortunately, because I always keep my ladder ID(s) private, but I will upload the original VoD to youtube and link in the OP.
VoD won't be the same, some people like me likes to learn from analyzing replays instead of reading walls of texts if it's possible. |
| | Tomorrow never comes until its too late... |
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| NoisyNinja United States. June 21 2012 07:44. Posts 982 | Profile # |
| Replays please. I want to see how to crush the stephano build. |
| | The world can go fuck itself. I'm not taking out my headphones. |
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| Masvidal Korea (South). June 21 2012 08:03. Posts 213 | Profile # |
| VoD of the original game is now up, at least. |
| | "Teamliquid is a place for starcraft, not boobs." -autoexec |
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| aYtDuSteR Canada. June 21 2012 08:21. Posts 118 | Profile # |
| stephano didnt do his build just for an fyi. This is just a standard immortal push with bad macro by mana. |
| | It's not about winning but the prevention of defeat. |
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| Masvidal Korea (South). June 21 2012 08:27. Posts 213 | Profile # |
Added extended BO. And in a couple days, once I have it figured out and have experience with it, will be posting a [G] on MaNa's build from Game 2, in Stephano definitely did "his build".
And I watched the game about 20 times, Stephano did do his build, I know that game by heart now and see it in my sleep, lol. He had speed roaches and lings, but Mana hit his 3rd at like 10 minutes and started disrupting his mining, a full 2 minutes before Stephano "maxes" on Roach/Ling (in actuality, Stephano style is generally only at around 178 supply at the 12 minute mark). |
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| ROOTKane Canada. June 21 2012 08:34. Posts 1604 | Profile Blog # |
On June 21 2012 08:27 Masvidal wrote:
Added extended BO. And in a couple days, once I have it figured out and have experience with it, will be posting a [G] on MaNa's build from Game 2, in Stephano definitely did "his build".
And I watched the game about 20 times, Stephano did do his build, I know that game by heart now and see it in my sleep, lol. He had speed roaches and lings, but Mana hit his 3rd at like 10 minutes and started disrupting his mining, a full 2 minutes before Stephano "maxes" on Roach/Ling (in actuality, Stephano style is generally only at around 178 supply at the 12 minute mark).
lol? stephano is maxed by 11:10 in some of his games, and by maxed i mean 200/200. |
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| cassurai June 21 2012 08:38. Posts 269 | Profile # | |
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| oOOoOphidian United States. June 21 2012 08:54. Posts 1235 | Profile # |
On June 21 2012 08:34 LgNKane wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 08:27 Masvidal wrote:
Added extended BO. And in a couple days, once I have it figured out and have experience with it, will be posting a [G] on MaNa's build from Game 2, in Stephano definitely did "his build".
And I watched the game about 20 times, Stephano did do his build, I know that game by heart now and see it in my sleep, lol. He had speed roaches and lings, but Mana hit his 3rd at like 10 minutes and started disrupting his mining, a full 2 minutes before Stephano "maxes" on Roach/Ling (in actuality, Stephano style is generally only at around 178 supply at the 12 minute mark).
lol? stephano is maxed by 11:10 in some of his games, and by maxed i mean 200/200.
You can actually max at 10:50 with no pressure. A lot of the timings will come down to the earlier pressure and how the zerg responds, which could delay max to closer to 12 minutes. |
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| Masvidal Korea (South). June 22 2012 14:29. Posts 213 | Profile # |
When I said they aren't quite maxed at 12 minutes, I meant 2 things; I meant that when it hits 12:00, a lot of their supply if it is 200/200 is in eggs that haven't hatched yet, and also I was basing it on a game where at least something took place between the beginning and 12:00 that prevented the Zerg from droning to 80-90 without making a unit beyond a couple of early lings. If the Protoss is going for a 3rd, 9 times out of 10 the Zerg will reach the max at or before 12, but in a 2 base protoss situation, most Z will start producing units earlier, which is the type of situation I was referring to.
I've been playing around with this build, and as it pertains to what you said about how zergs can max at 10:50 with no pressure, (keep in mind the attack hits a hair after 10 minutes) I have been moving out with my zealot and stalker, putting down gates 2-4 a TAD earlier, just letting the pylon finish (a bit hidden, though) and warping in 3-4 zealots and poking the 3rd, snag a few drone kills and at least try to retreat before reinforcements come. Sometimes when he starts killing my pylons, I warp in another round right before it dies to make it look convincing. I end up cutting probes at 45 instead of 51 and only adding 3 extra gates up to 7 so my push can still come early, but the end result has been a lower zerg unit count when the attack does hit later on.
I've been thinking about safer ways to apply pressure early on without slowing down the timing and saving the units, but the problem is something like, for example, making the warp prism first and just warping in zeals and picking them up before they die and going home sounds nice in theory, but the obvious problem slapped me hard when I tried it -- it involves getting a robotics facility and arriving at 4 gates sooner than I'd like to, and worse, investing 600 minerals in a warp prism and 4 zealots means investing the EXACT amount of minerals that would bring me to 8 gates, so even if I do a little bit of damage, he's maxed when I get there and the push falls on its face bad.
I've been thinking about chronoing out hallucinate BEFORE WG (i'd have to spend chrono on WG then, as well) getting the sentry before the stalker and bringing the sentry with the zealot stalker poke (leaving it back a ways obv) & hallucing zealots (or maybe a void ray?), something like that, but I haven't gotten the guts to not research WG as soon as the cybernetics core is done, because it goes against every instinct I have. But Sentries have the same build time from gateways as warpgates, and the only things you warp in at your base before the push leaves are sentries anyway, so you don't REALLY need WG out until you move out. I'm trying it next time I get a 3 hatch before gas zerg, screw it  . After all, it's only theorycrafting until I try it lol. If I get stomped, I'll say I researched the wrong upgrade and thats why i lost ^^ |
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. I know a few people with Masters accounts that they could lend me. Not that I would do that, since it's against the ToS, of course 
