[H] TvP Blink Observer (on Cloud Kingdom)

I can hold blink all-in with observer on most of my non-vetoed maps but on this one; it seems impossible, even when I know it is coming.

I have several replays like this one on the same map if you want more examples.

http://drop.sc/201183

I moved my tech-lab barracks far to the back so he couldn't snipe it and get combat shield instead of stim because it researches faster. I also throw down extra barracks instead of additional add-ons in case he attacks without observer and bunkers so he can't just walk into my natural. His macro was poor and honestly he shouldn't have let me scout it. No sentries means it basically has to be blink or voidray though.

The main is just too wide-open on this map. I can't force an engagement EVER against blink, but if I get 3 techlabs, what if it WAS void rays?

I feel like my main mistake this game was trying to catch him when he blinked in the first time because I lost too many marines before my SCVs got there, but even after the SCVs arrived, he was target firing my barracks units so I don't know if it mattered. The observer can stay out of range where I can snipe it, so even though I can see where it is on a few occasions, I can never get over there. If I turtle next to my main, I feel like he can just kill my bunkers (or all the scvs repairing the bunkers) at the front since my army is so far away.

What is the correct response? Lets say he totally denied scouting like he should have and proxied twilight and robo?

DIZ, my opponent, seems to think that gas-less expand is a flat out build order loss to this build on this map. Is he right?

Please don't give feedback if you can't consistently hold this off at diamond/master level, you haven't watched the replay or are theory-crafting. I feel like his execution of this build could have been much better than it was so pretend like that is the case in your replies.

I'm older than NesTea and slower than GoOdy

PlacidPanda United States. June 21 2012 09:35. Posts 243

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Okay, you need to have marauders to hold a blink all-in, there is no debate about that, pure marines without stim will not hold it. You mention fear of responding to the wrong build as the reason why you didn't build marauders. However the only reason you should have fear of doing the wrong build is if you dont scout, you should scout that he doesn't have a natural and then use the rest of your CC energy on scans to see what he is doing because technically you already have an economic lead and don't need the energy for mules. Then after scouting what hes doing you quite simply just build marauders and roll.

Squirtle Hwaitting!!

U_G_L_Y United States. June 21 2012 10:16. Posts 459

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Do I need 2 gas? Normally, I get my first gas during third marine construction so that I can start stim fast enough to get stim and combat before 10 minutes on one tech lab. If I suspect blink play, should I take that second gas at the normal time (when next two barracks start) as usual and then just get 2 more tech labs?

Does anyone have a replay of them holding this?

I'm older than NesTea and slower than GoOdy

oOOoOphidian United States. June 21 2012 10:28. Posts 1239

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I'd help, but I struggle with this all-in just as much. I've never seen anyone hold it at GSL level and it has become a lot more popular lately due to genius and mc. The only thing is if you know it's coming (which is normally impossible), then you can build a bunker by your production and go combat shields first (marines take one extra shot from stalkers).

Last edit: 2012-06-21 10:29:33

http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian

rufflesQueso June 21 2012 11:06. Posts 100

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Your SCV enters his base, but you don't even check the buildings. Somehow you know blink-stalker all-in is coming. (beastly game sense?)

His friendly banter (LOL) may have tipped you off though. Regardless, that was really odd. Edit: seems like practice partner.

1) If you had built the bunker in your main closer to the ledge (but still out of stalker range), you may have had a much easier time defending the all-in. As it is, that bunker did absolutely nothing.

On this map, blink stalker is really hard to hold. I build my bunker closer to the ledge so that as soon as he blinks up he starts taking damage (you need SCVs repairing it).

When you do this, they'll tend to blink in from the top-left most corner of your base... which is another story.

If you really want to build your bunker near your mineral line, try to find a better spot for it. A little bit more to the left would have been better than where it was.

2)You need to make a shit ton of units, and stall long enough for stim to finish. When he blinks in, pull all your SCVs and crush him with everything you have.

Good job, you started stim... BUT cancelled it!! Then you researched Combat Shields instead... wtf??? Get stim first, it would have helped tremendously.

3) Most importantly, his first blink inside your main destroyed the majority of your forces. That's when things started to go downhill. Be wary of when he does so, and pull back to your bunker instead of engaging. You were simply outnumbered.

It will be a scrappy fight, but because you are on 2 base... mules will save the day for you.

somewhat off-topic
Your fear of what-ifs is crippling your gameplay. Act on what you scout, and do the best with that information. Don't psyche yourself out. (What if void-ray etc etc.) You scouted the Twilight Council. Come on....

Last edit: 2012-06-21 11:21:07

FaKeSC2 Germany. June 21 2012 11:35. Posts 78

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I don't think his fear of what-ifs is a bad thing. Because mid-master or better players WILL kill your scv before it gets in the main and they WILL hide the tech or proxy it so that it is very hard to find it with a scan.

I am mid-masters EU and i also struggle with the blinkstalker/voidray/dark templar problem. Those are the 3 most commong 1 base 2 gas allin (even though there are others) and the response for each is a bit different. For Voidrays you'll want more marines, for blinkstalkers more marauders + concussive and for DT's you need 1-2 turrets.

I m also just experimenting but I feel like you need concussive into stim and build 2-3 marauders before you actually see which allin is coming. A 4th or 5th rax also doesnt seem totally off.

I hope some mid-high masters or gm terran who knows to hold off all 1 base allins answers in this thread.

Last edit: 2012-06-21 11:36:25

Seiferz United States. June 21 2012 11:41. Posts 624

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my best advice would be to try and snipe the obs with a turret or scan, delay medivacs, and rush stim. ideally you should probably be working off 5 rax while heading toward medivac. you'll need to bunker your front and pull your scvs whenever you engage until you hit a critical mass. just keep in mind that if you kill this push you win the game so save no expense.

it's still hard as hell to hold on that map though. especially if the protoss isn't a moron.

FaKeSC2 Germany. June 21 2012 11:45. Posts 78

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On June 21 2012 11:41 Seiferz wrote:
my best advice would be to try and snipe the obs with a turret or scan, delay medivacs, and rush stim. ideally you should probably be working off 5 rax while heading toward medivac. you'll need to bunker your front and pull your scvs whenever you engage until you hit a critical mass. just keep in mind that if you kill this push you win the game so save no expense.

it's still hard as hell to hold on that map though. especially if the protoss isn't a moron.

You can't snipe the observer if the protoss places it good. It can give vision for blink without giving the opportunity to get it sniped. But ye if you get it it is obviously a huge win.

U_G_L_Y United States. June 21 2012 11:49. Posts 459

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Yes, I have been playing Starcraft with Diz since 1999 so I didn't actually look at my SCV that game because I knew what it was, that was lazy on my part and not indicitave of a real ladder game. It's hard to pretend like you don't know what's coming when you do, but regardless, he should have stopped that SCV

By the time stim is nearing completion, he frequently finds a way to snipe the techlab. (I have antoher replay of him from today actually doing that but I got supply blocked so I chose not to share that one) I guess you're right though, my fear is actually crippling me and making me do weird things.

Bunker placement is what we were discussing with the friendly banter at the start because it's normally how I beat him on other maps but on CK, there is "too much space," if I make a bunker near the ledge, he will just blink in from the far left corner. I crush this on day-break and Tal-Darim, where there are really only 2 places to enter the main from. That's why we were practicing Cloud Kingdom. I think it is the best map for my mid-game medivac timing if I can ever get there :S

So any opinions on trying to get 2 or more tech labs?

I'm older than NesTea and slower than GoOdy

FaKeSC2 Germany. June 21 2012 12:05. Posts 78

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I found that in another thread with the search. That guy seems to be high master/near gm level:

you scouted double gas and still engi block = wrong
you dont give up your nat
you build 2 techlabs (dont build reaktor and build insta maurauder concussive (its really important)
you float 1 rax on the lowground between your nat and main (he will never be able to cancel ur stim there)
you pull alot of scvs if he blinks in your base
you have 4 marines in your bunker at front and 2-3 scvs idling there to repair
you build your starport and factory at your natural aswell
get +1
most important: always pull alot of scvs it doesnt matter if you lose 25 scvs as long as you keep a decent army and get stim+medivacs
try to find out if he built more than 1 observer, if he didnt scan it down
watch your money
its really easy to get high on minerals
if you scout it really early (like you did) you can also:
get only 2 rax, get really fast gas and built superfast maurauders, add 2 rax a bit later (goody uses/used that build)

tldr: HIDE YOUR STIM/MEDIVACS ; PULL SCVS

This seems quit good. The only things that bother me are survivability against voidray or dt allin and the thing with the buildings between natural and main. It seems a bit time consuming which could mean 1-2 units less.

U_G_L_Y United States. June 21 2012 12:42. Posts 459

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I don't think it is possible to to tech to starport and +1 and live... I would like to see a replay of that, especially on CK, I think he's blowing smoke.

I'm older than NesTea and slower than GoOdy

Thr33 Sweden. June 21 2012 13:50. Posts 20

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Get three bunkers up and a turret in front of your nat. Rush stim, when you scout the blink salvage two bunkers, leave one with some units and 4-5 scvs around it for repair in case he decides to go for the nat. When having three bunkers up you can go for earlier marauders and a faster stim rush because the other possible all-ins aren't as scary. I find having an scvs patrolling the edge of my main is very helpful because it basically forces him to show if he's going for a VR warpin on the highground or blink

Go for marauders and slow, if he blinks into your base pull scvs and engage with them, don't pull all the scvs just enough to chase him out of your base. He can't pick a fight with your army and 8-10 scvs so he's gonna blink out and then you'd rather have 10 still mining. Start two more barracks whilst going for medivacs. Pick up the pocketed gas at the expo because the main ones might be sniped, build extra depots because they might be sniped.

Don't waste scans on anything, you're going to be pulling scvs, you need the mules. You will win the game if you don't take a lot of damage and manage to get medivacs out. It's not easy but it is doable, I've held korean masters doing it, only have one replay of it but the guy was not very good so not really any point in posting it. (he basically attacked by the time I had stim and a few marauders, didn't even need my scvs)

Good luck ^^

"You guys are so noob that if they some day gave cakes to people who are noobs then you guys would get two cakes."

U_G_L_Y United States. June 21 2012 22:15. Posts 459

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Does anyone have a replay or VOD of Terran winning on Cloud Kingdom or Shattered Temple vs this?

I'm older than NesTea and slower than GoOdy

Salient United States. June 21 2012 23:01. Posts 336

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Is it helpful to build a missle turret to deny observer high ground vision once you know he's going for this build?

U_G_L_Y United States. June 21 2012 23:15. Posts 459

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Observer sight range is greater than turret attack range.

I'm older than NesTea and slower than GoOdy

CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr June 21 2012 23:29. Posts 544

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i wanted to post a replay to be helpful then i realised i have none. cloud kingdom wonders man, the best map ever made. yea its super hard im gonna give u the helpful advice i recieved from a gm protoss who does that every single pvt then put me on ignore list: dont build bunkers and rush to medivacs, use up 2stims to delay or lift in ur main until medivacs. both have obv flaws, but yea i think lift in main is best on cloud kingdom, now u have to scout how protoss reacts, and make the correct decision. some will dt, some will allin anyway; some expand into allin, some expand into such greed that if u dont take ur natural instantly and kill them the game is over, etc...

its absurdly strong imo, but note that the thorzain build, 3rax variation is a really good counter to it, so mb if u see it too often u can open that way on cloud and try to hold nat anyway

awaiting the return of the space cowboy

Thr33 Sweden. June 21 2012 23:38. Posts 20

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http://drop.sc/201939

This is the hold but the toss isn't any good so not sure if it's gonna help.

"You guys are so noob that if they some day gave cakes to people who are noobs then you guys would get two cakes."

MaxSteel June 22 2012 01:17. Posts 78

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On June 21 2012 22:15 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Does anyone have a replay or VOD of Terran winning on Cloud Kingdom or Shattered Temple vs this?

Haven't exactly watched your replay, but if you want an example where he goes (albait delayed) blink stalkers and I win, here you go:
http://drop.sc/201959

If he goes for the faster blink, it's gonna be tricky, but the idea is to float everything into your base and put the marines on follow with the single Thor until the 2nd one comes out. Then, put 1 thors+ half the marines on one cliff, and build 2 bunkers in your natural send the 2nd Thor and marines there, while having the SCV's in both bases ready to on auto-repair, and perferably around 8 in each base hotkeyed to go repair the Thor if the stalekrs blink up. When the 3rd Thor is out, send him up. Once you got 2 marine and 2 thors + marines on the top of the cliff, consider yourself safe. And also, scan to kill the observer asap.

Edit: Watching replay

Edit2:
My 2 Thors would definitly hold it.
But if you don't build any, at least do either one of the following:
a) Actually get 2 gas, a factory, and siege tanks + siege mode.
b) At the 8th minute, you got 2 naked rax, one with a tech lab, and one not even finished? Very bad rax timing. If you really don't want to have any tech vs toss (which isn't the best choice, but still viable), and want to have only barracks, you should have aimed for 2 Tech Lab rax + 1 Reactor Rax. Most importantly, though, you should've either scanned his base right away at 6:00, or sent an SCV sideways so he gets to his expansion at around 5:30, and if you see none, scan immediately and react accordingly. If you'd scan, you'd see all the gates + the researching blink, and you would build the 2nd bunker up on the edge of the cliff, and preferably a 3rd one even farther up. But don't go for pure Bio and expect to hold blink stalkers without exceptional micro, at least 150 EAPM (since you have to ahve both the repairing SCV's hotkeyed and ready to repair the bunkers, and your main force to attack the stalkers).

Last edit: 2012-06-22 01:35:15

Herpaderp

gavinashun June 22 2012 06:47. Posts 101

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There is no doubt that this is a very powerful build on Cloud Kingdom ... MC crushed Ganzi on cloud kingdom with it the other day.

AB0RTI0N Bosnia-Herzegovina. June 22 2012 08:59. Posts 3

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Triple orbital builds tend to be pretty good vs this... Honetsly its prretty easy atk to hold off just build a ring of missilr turrest all around your base so they cant do the "stalker warp-jump" thing after that just pull all ur scvs andd attack with a mass thor heavy composition (dont forget the armoury atk upgrade bcuz thors have 2 guns so the upgrade has 2x affect) and after doing this quick lil allin just transition into drop plau

hope my advices help

good luck with your practice!