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| LogicalZero Canada. June 25 2012 14:56. Posts 10 | Profile # |
Hi TL! I am currently a platinum-level protoss player on the NA server. After reviewing many replays of my Pv* match-ups, I have come to the conclusion that I was losing many games due to poor engagements.
I was just wondering if you guys have any tips on what I can do to improve my engagements in the PvP matchup, since this is where I seem to have the worst case of unit positioning and micro.
Obviously hotkeying different types of units into control groups is really effective. After watching pro streams and the GSL I noticed that many players put their colossus into a control group and try to kite units down using the superior range. Do you remove the colos from your main army control group entirely (and put them in a single unique group)?
Sentries are really important for guardian shields. But is it worth using FF's against a stalker/colo composition?
I feel like to try the various stargate and blink stalker builds that people in masters seem to use often. But I feel like my poor unit control would be a hindrance. Should I wait?
Lastly, in most PvP games I go into a heavy chargelot/colo composition which seems to work fine against most of my opponents who seem to make too many stalkers. I've been thinking of making 10-12 blink stalks with the idea of using them to blink into enemy colos, to snipe as many as I can (since a greater amount of colos usually gives a win). Would this be a viable strategy?
Here is a replay that I (Shockwave) played not too long ago on the ladder:
http://drop.sc/204957
I had poor unit control, but managed to win the game probably due to my opponents weaker unit composition. Could blink stalkers have caused my demise had he not poorly engaged? I was hardly able to make a concave.
Any advice would be appreciated! You guys are awesome! If any of you need a practice partner, add me! (Shockwave.253) |
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| rEalGuapo Germany. June 25 2012 16:18. Posts 761 | Profile # |
You go for Archon/Chargelot yet ask how to Control Colossi/Gateway properly?
Anyway:
For Colossi Gateway you want your Colossi to be in front of your army and then kite the other army into your gateway units, this way you will pick off a couple of zealots without taking any damage (at least on your gateway army). I do not recommend to bind your colossi to a different hotkey since it is so incredibly easy to select them in a battle due to their size.
Apart from that, Zealots in front and a nice concave are always what you want.
For Chargelot/Archon you need the right area to engage in more than anything. never fight in narrow space unless you are 100% certain that you win and even if you wouldn't you are far enough ahead to still win.
Then, try to spread your zealots a little so that they don't move around like crazy but get a nice surround right away, Archons are obviously used to break any Force Fields.
In case I miss understood you and you actually go Chargelot+Archon+Colossi:
Pretty much the same, kite with Colossi, then move in with your army on an open area.
Regarding Phoenix:
I would REALLY advise you to pick one build for each match up and stick to it for a couple of weeks. This way you will not have to think about when to build what, even after 8 to 10 minutes and you can concentrate 100% on macro/unit control.
If you want to go for Phoenix, do it but stick to it. It is definitely a viable build. However, you will need multitasking, you have to keep your macro up while harrassing his army/eco or you will die to a counterpush. Also you need to know how much energy you can afford to spend on killing probes.
It is a rather technical build but a really good one.
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| LogicalZero Canada. June 25 2012 16:51. Posts 10 | Profile # |
| Yeah, I rarely include archons in my composition unless I'm really in late game. Usually I only do chargelot/colo, but I can see how archons can also be of use. I will do as you suggest though, to focus on fewer builds. Thanks for the advice! I'll be sure to practice doing better concaves. Also, just clicking the colos seem much more easier. Thanks! |
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| TechBot Canada. June 25 2012 18:00. Posts 2 | Profile # |
Hi Shockwave! I'm also a Canadian platinum Protoss, and I'm pretty good at PvP. The advice given by rEalGuapo is wonderful, so I would like to apply it to the replay you have.
At 15:40 the first major battle happens, and you saw where the army was because of the colossus shots. I really like how you engaged the army before the rocks got taken out, because that wide open space is much better for your unit composition instead of if you attacked from your 3rd down the ramp. I would have, however, taken just a second to make sure that I had the better concave on my zealots and especially colossi by moving the whole army just a bit to the right and spreading it out.
In other games, you can do these things much easier if you see precisely where their army is. Something I noticed in this game is that your opponent had better vision than you almost throughout. Good vision usually leads to good positioning, so get some observers out and pylons planted :D Another thing you can do to get fantastic vision is open with phoenix and just fly them everywhere when they're not harassing or helping in battles.
Now I want you to look at 18:45. Three interesting things are happening here:
1. Your army is placed in a good location. It best defends all areas that you would not want to lose, notably those rocks and of course your bases.
2. Your colossi are clumped up. A good rule is to make a line of colossi perpendicular to their expected path of attack, so you get the biggest concave.
3. The other guy has two observers over your army and a pylon near your gold expo. If you had better vision with more observers and aggressive scouting, you could have denied some enemy vision. Also, the threat of counterattacks into your natural or future gold expo from that pylon is enormous.
The final battle was pretty straightforward; you had a way better army and won. I have the similar advice as before: spread out the colossi and zealots in lines perpendicular to *your* path of attack this time. I would like to add that you should have known what his army looked like specifically before attacking, another thing you can do with good vision. In this case though, you can just use a probe. Never forget that you can almost always scout the front of any opponent's base.
Oh, also don't forget to experiment with new things and have fun! |
| | "We have enough minerals, just make a smaller depot." |
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| Muffintopper United States. June 26 2012 00:48. Posts 2 | Profile # |
| Hello Shock wave. I'm a diamond protons and I see late game battles all based on positioning. Concaves with colossus are deadly. It is very unwise to attack a protoss with an even army, as defenders will normally have the better concave. The best way to play is to mass-up colossus ball, defend your expansions, and do small harassment. Even a couple zealots can do so much damage to a spread out toss. Dts are also crazy good if you can sneak in a couple without being scouted. You also need your observer to scout what hes doing, because some people will try going weird tech switches to Voidrays ect. so you need to be prepared. Now just defend. You will be surprised how powerful spread out colossus can be. Sentries are also not very good late-game. Gas really wants to be saved for colossus, and archons later. having 2-3 sentries are pretty good if you use them for guardian shield. Force field become useless when colossus come out. Most Importantly, HAVE FUN! |
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| TheFlexN Israel. June 26 2012 01:25. Posts 11 | Profile # |
Hello brotoss!
I will just tell my strategy when the PvP game is getting stuck (you know, that 30+ min game both of you turtle and wait for the other to do something):
I get the colo+chargelot+archon mix with a mothership and 1 ht, usually you will see a mothership if you have one, all you do is feedback the enemy mothership and thats a free win. If no mothership is out I think that it is sometimes doesnt matter what is the positioning (again, sometimes) because you want to be in an open field, use your colo to hit his colo and let your army do the rest. In this situation you need to "out-produse" (however you write that) your enemy, when a game is stuck I build 6+ robos and 30+ gates and I rebuild my army as it dies. Expos all over the map is the key of a stuck game!
gl&hf! |
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| LogicalZero Canada. June 26 2012 09:55. Posts 10 | Profile # |
Wow, thanks for the awesome feedback!
Techbot, very nice analysis of the replay! I always had trouble with good observer usage. I'll be sure to deny enemy scouting more and look for hidden pylons. I can see where they can be dangerous. Spreading out the colos seems wise too. I guess I can keep an observer near my army to deny their vision of my unit composition and my location. Also, would a hallucinated phoenix also be viable? I'll make sure to practice making concaves in future games for sure!
Muffintopper, thanks for your reply! Yeah I really have to improve my late game harassing techniques. Perhaps I can use some hidden pylons to sneak in DTs into mineral lines. Should a shrine go down before the templar archives?
TheFlexN, thanks for the brostoss advice! Yeah those 30 min macro games are rough when both are maxed out. I assume the mothership is used to vortex the enemy colos? I can see how that can be useful. Yeah, I'll make sure to keep some HTs around in case I scout an incoming mothership. |
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 jtixs United Kingdom. June 27 2012 04:46. Posts 150 | Profile # |
| you both have stalkers so you are both imba and both retarded morons, so it is pointless doing any thoery craft |
| | Misconceptions to Mastery |
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| LogicalZero Canada. June 27 2012 10:03. Posts 10 | Profile # |
On June 27 2012 04:46 jtixs wrote:
you both have stalkers so you are both imba and both retarded morons, so it is pointless doing any thoery craft
Thanks for the input bro! Really helpful! |
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| Lobotomist United States. June 27 2012 13:31. Posts 1230 | Profile # |
General analysis of the game:
First, I think you need to tighten up your build a bit. After your core finishes, instead of producing a stalker, you add another gateway. This is...a mistake. Generally, players will keep their probe scouting your base until your first stalker comes out, as the probe can avoid the zealot with a tiny bit of micro, so you need to get that first stalker out to deny scouting. Had you continued to build stalkers from the gateway, you could have had the same number out and a faster robo at your first warp in. Take a look at some of the great protoss guides on TL and maybe copy one of those builds.
Second, you get supply blocked a few times starting at 56/56 I think. Not so good. Before that you were smooth though, so that's good.
Third, you stopped building immortals a bit prematurely, I think. Had your opponent attacked right when your nexus got up, his superior immortal count could have been your downfall.
Fourth, you stopped scouting. PvP mid/late scouting is wierd, as it's easy to lose observers to other observers. Try to maintain general knowledge of his army and composition though.
In general, good game. You won through superior macro, which is the way you want to do it. Keep it up.
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| | Teching to hive too quickly isn't just a risk: it's an ultrarisk |
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| 0Toph Canada. July 04 2012 20:03. Posts 8 | Profile # |
On June 25 2012 16:18 rEalGuapo wrote:
You go for Archon/Chargelot yet ask how to Control Colossi/Gateway properly?
Anyway:
For Colossi Gateway you want your Colossi to be in front of your army and then kite the other army into your gateway units, this way you will pick off a couple of zealots without taking any damage (at least on your gateway army). I do not recommend to bind your colossi to a different hotkey since it is so incredibly easy to select them in a battle due to their size.
Apart from that, Zealots in front and a nice concave are always what you want.
For Chargelot/Archon you need the right area to engage in more than anything. never fight in narrow space unless you are 100% certain that you win and even if you wouldn't you are far enough ahead to still win.
Then, try to spread your zealots a little so that they don't move around like crazy but get a nice surround right away, Archons are obviously used to break any Force Fields.
In case I miss understood you and you actually go Chargelot+Archon+Colossi:
Pretty much the same, kite with Colossi, then move in with your army on an open area.
Regarding Phoenix:
I would REALLY advise you to pick one build for each match up and stick to it for a couple of weeks. This way you will not have to think about when to build what, even after 8 to 10 minutes and you can concentrate 100% on macro/unit control.
If you want to go for Phoenix, do it but stick to it. It is definitely a viable build. However, you will need multitasking, you have to keep your macro up while harrassing his army/eco or you will die to a counterpush. Also you need to know how much energy you can afford to spend on killing probes.
It is a rather technical build but a really good one.
Very helpful to me. The Colo to kite is a great point. I will be improving my engagements thanks to your post  |
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