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[G] PvT: Effective dt harassment

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy 1 2 All
 
 Tombomb   United States. June 26 2012 06:57. Posts 52
Profile # 
Dt vs. Terran-harassing your way through the mid game
(sorry for long windedness )
Pvt (generally)-[/u][/u]
Early-game:
+ Show Spoiler +

mid-game:
+ Show Spoiler +
Late game:
+ Show Spoiler +


Premise:
+ Show Spoiler +

How do I solve this? Is there any other way besides teching.
+ Show Spoiler +

Strong vs:
+ Show Spoiler +

The build order:
+ Show Spoiler +

Execution:
+ Show Spoiler +

The math behind the strat:
+ Show Spoiler +

How to harass:
+ Show Spoiler +

Things to watch for:
+ Show Spoiler +

The follow up:
+ Show Spoiler +

What if he sees my dark shrine building?
+ Show Spoiler +

Replays:
http://drop.sc/204600
Notes: + Show Spoiler +

http://drop.sc/204605
Notes:
+ Show Spoiler +

http://drop.sc/204607
Notes:
+ Show Spoiler +

http://drop.sc/207628
Notes:
+ Show Spoiler +

Conclusion:
+ Show Spoiler +

Regardless of your opinion, Thanks for reading!! :D

Update:
Part 2 of Day[9] daily 475
http://day9.tv/archives/
--> Game of Sase using Dt harassment, in a similar way to what is outlined above, analyzed and commentated.
Last edit: 2012-07-17 01:45:09
"If someone tells you to do something for money, tell them to go to hell"
Old Post

 
 Xequecal   United States. June 26 2012 07:37. Posts 380
Profile # 
Your reasoning of high templar vs. colossi is totally flawed. You can warp in templar and have them start gaining energy while storm is researching. Also council is 100 gas only, and 100 gas council + 200 gas archives + 200 gas storm research + 150 gas templar is 650 gas to get one storm, not 1000.

The reason you have to make colossi is simple, you need the robo to not autolose to banshees. Since you're required to pay a 250 gas "robo + observer tax" every game against Terran you are pretty much forced into going colo first, because you can't spend 250 gas on units that don't shoot anything and then go spend 650 more gas before you get a combat unit without getting rolled.

DTs can work, but you have to realize it's more blind cheese than it is a real strat. If you don't get a robo and obs, you risk autolosing to banshees. If you get both a robo and a council/dark shrine in the early/midgame, you're going to need to do a LOT of damage for him to not just straight up overpower you with more units. I really wouldn't recommend it with how most Terran players on ladder currently play. If he's going for a quick third base, you can do a lot of damage and he won't have enough units to counter. If he's doing any 1 base strat, or any 2 base timing, which is what 90% of Terran players do, you're just going to die. Even with no defense at home from the DTs he can just base trade you with the units he has after you spent all that gas.
Last edit: 2012-06-26 07:39:23
Old Post

 
 philln12   United States. June 26 2012 07:57. Posts 23
Profile # 
it is true you are being cost efficient most of the time yur making dts, but the hard part is doing enough damage and teching up to stop the medivac push with banked scans. Overall i agree about the main idea though, most of the time if executed correctly dts can definitely bring a game to your favor. Also wat xequecal said i also thought the same about the collusus vs templar.
Old Post

 
 PH   United States. June 26 2012 08:05. Posts 6077
Profile Blog # 
Turrets cost 150 minerals...
Hello
Old Post

 
 Tombomb   United States. June 26 2012 08:21. Posts 52
Profile # 

On June 26 2012 07:37 Xequecal wrote:
Your reasoning of high templar vs. colossi is totally flawed. You can warp in templar and have them start gaining energy while storm is researching. Also council is 100 gas only, and 100 gas council + 200 gas archives + 200 gas storm research + 150 gas templar is 650 gas to get one storm, not 1000.

The reason you have to make colossi is simple, you need the robo to not autolose to banshees. Since you're required to pay a 250 gas "robo + observer tax" every game against Terran you are pretty much forced into going colo first, because you can't spend 250 gas on units that don't shoot anything and then go spend 650 more gas before you get a combat unit without getting rolled.

DTs can work, but you have to realize it's more blind cheese than it is a real strat. If you don't get a robo and obs, you risk autolosing to banshees. If you get both a robo and a council/dark shrine in the early/midgame, you're going to need to do a LOT of damage for him to not just straight up overpower you with more units. I really wouldn't recommend it with how most Terran players on ladder currently play. If he's going for a quick third base, you can do a lot of damage and he won't have enough units to counter. If he's doing any 1 base strat, or any 2 base timing, which is what 90% of Terran players do, you're just going to die. Even with no defense at home from the DTs he can just base trade you with the units he has after you spent all that gas.


Thanks for pointing out the math error with the templar cost.
Getting a robo and twilight allows you to be safe from banshees, and yes, you need an observer if banshees are in play. I'll also say here that banshee follow ups to terran fast expands have become more popular.

However, and I didn't say this explicitly in the guide, I always get an observer out before a warp prism just in case. So, if you use this build, you'll still be safe against banshees. As far as the necessary observer forcing you into colossus tech, with good macro you can line things up really nicely so that you have a robo bay up shortly after your observer pops, but why can't the same be done with the dark shrine? Sidenote, robo + obs=175 gas.

Furthermore, i explicitly said that this a build that is meant to work, and be executed, against a fast expanding terran. I also warned against getting all-in'd by a terran player once he has seen the dark templar in his base. Also, the 2 base timing you are talking about (90% of terran players are doing it), is exactly what this build is aimed to un-do. You get dts in his base before that push is able to manifest, and unless he just goes for the base trade (which he will be hard pressed to win, as he'll eventually run out of scans and you can warp in dts at home), you will delay the push.

Lastly, I don't see a problem with spending the 650 gas on "non combat units". You can afford it economically off two bases just fine, and if you time it out right, you will be able to defend his push just fine when it comes. You absolutely do not need colossi to stay alive in PvT. There are other ways to defend the 2 base medivac timing (note: other than what I'm advocating here), and they don't all necessitate colossi. An easy one is to go for a lot of gateways off two base and hit him early (~7 min.s) with high energy sentries, force fielding and killing off enough of his army that his push will be weaker. I refuse to admit that colossi are necessary here. Even when turtling, I've had no trouble holding off this push with upgraded gateway units.
"If someone tells you to do something for money, tell them to go to hell"
Old Post

 
 Tombomb   United States. June 26 2012 08:22. Posts 52
Profile # 
PH-
(Wiki)Missile Turret
"If someone tells you to do something for money, tell them to go to hell"
Old Post

 
 Kharnage   Australia. June 26 2012 09:23. Posts 831
Profile # 

On June 26 2012 08:05 PH wrote:
Turrets cost 150 minerals...


Cannons cost 150 minterals
Turrets cost 100.

@Tombomb : Nice write up. Some great tips there for people who want to try out DT's in PvT but don't know how to do it. (beyond make DTs, cross fingers)
Last edit: 2012-06-26 09:29:23
Old Post

 
 dynwar7   June 26 2012 10:56. Posts 1945
Profile # 
"Vikings are a 1a unit in a bio composition"

Really? You have no idea do you? What about stalkers focus firing us? What about having the vikings focus fire colossi instead of just a moveing like your army?

Dont simply say 1a if you have no idea mate.
Regarding the imbalance, hilarious to see Zergs defending themselves....
Old Post

  Masvidal   Korea (South). June 26 2012 11:22. Posts 213Profile # 

On June 26 2012 07:37 Xequecal wrote:
The reason you have to make colossi is simple, you need the robo to not autolose to banshees. Since you're required to pay a 250 gas "robo + observer tax" every game against Terran you are pretty much forced into going colo first, because you can't spend 250 gas on units that don't shoot anything and then go spend 650 more gas before you get a combat unit without getting rolled.

Not true. If you go 2 Forge double upgrades into TC into templar archives for a heavily upgraded gateway army w/ chargelot, stalkers, storm, archon, all you really have to do is plant a couple cannons at each base and you can afford to delay your robo until you want to move out and either attack or take another base. You'll max before you're even on 4 bases; by that point, you can afford a robo and chrono out as many observers as you like. You can be 100% safe against drops AND safe against attacks with cloaked ghosts mixed in as long as you have good cannon and HT placement at your bases, and have a few cannons at the front of any attack paths for detection (which you only need long enough to feedback/kill the ghosts).
Last edit: 2012-06-26 11:25:59
"Teamliquid is a place for starcraft, not boobs." -autoexec
Old Post

 
 Harbinger631   United States. June 26 2012 11:23. Posts 375
Profile # 
You say Collosi are obtained faster, but they're not at all.

Robo facility+Bay+Ext Thermal Lance= 65 +65 + 140 (collosus are 75) = 270 game seconds
T Council+Archives+Storm = 50+50+110= 215 game seconds

So a short-range collosus is 10 game seconds faster, but they're a whole minute later than a storm before they become very useful. The cost is also higher (1200/700 vs 600/650), as well as supply (6 vs 2).
Old Post

 
 Tombomb   United States. June 26 2012 11:50. Posts 52
Profile # 

On June 26 2012 11:23 Harbinger631 wrote:
You say Collosi are obtained faster, but they're not at all.

Robo facility+Bay+Ext Thermal Lance= 65 +65 + 140 (collosus are 75) = 270 game seconds
T Council+Archives+Storm = 50+50+110= 215 game seconds

So a short-range collosus is 10 game seconds faster, but they're a whole minute later than a storm before they become very useful. The cost is also higher (1200/700 vs 600/650), as well as supply (6 vs 2).


While the cost is higher than one storm (really one templar), once you start increasing your templar count the cost skyrockets. The same works for colossi.

I stand by the reasoning I used as far as timings go. With range, it is true that colossi are not faster, but range, while increasing their effectiveness by a HUGE margin, is not necessary for the purposes I'm describing. To make an effective offense, range is awesome to have. To defend the initial mid game push, not necessary. It would be nice, but colossi are a damn good unit without it. It is possible to have range for this initial push, as it is possible to get storm, but the point of this build is the harass. The harass weakens/thwarts/ at the very least delays the push giving you more flexibility in the mid game. It gives you breathing room and makes it possible to avoid turtling to develop a certain crutch tech path in time to defend an attack.

Thanks for the feedback though, you are right as far as the times and money go, but for the scenarios I'm addressing here I'm standing by my point.

"If someone tells you to do something for money, tell them to go to hell"
Old Post

 
 Tombomb   United States. June 26 2012 11:58. Posts 52
Profile # 

On June 26 2012 10:56 dynwar7 wrote:
"Vikings are a 1a unit in a bio composition"

Really? You have no idea do you? What about stalkers focus firing us? What about having the vikings focus fire colossi instead of just a moveing like your army?

Dont simply say 1a if you have no idea mate.



Ok. So, I'm not trying to trash talk Terran. I know it sounds like that, but I'm not. "1a unit" was probably not the right phrase to use.

But regardless, they more or less are on attack move (maybe attack click on 1 of the colossi at a time [focus firing]) unless the TOSS PLAYER focus fires them (which is what you said), at which point you micro them away. The majority of this dance off usually happens before the true engagement, but during the true engagement, vikings only have one target, the colossi. The point I was trying to make is that a) Vikings are a damn good counter to colossi and b) more importantly, they're a pretty easy transition if you already have a reactor'd starport (which is what most mid-game Bio builds revolve around). And as far as focus firing and dancing away from stalkers goes, its a bit less intricate than EMPing/sniping templar.

Don't get offended, I'm just saying the countering colossi is not as involved at countering templar. Almost every time I go colossi, I feel like I spend the rest of the game catching up as far as the "rock beats scissors" race goes.

Last edit: 2012-06-26 12:01:35
"If someone tells you to do something for money, tell them to go to hell"
Old Post

  jtixs   United Kingdom. June 27 2012 04:44. Posts 150Profile # 
TLDR just go latetgame, toss so imba and ez.
Misconceptions to Mastery
Old Post

 
 Tombomb   United States. June 27 2012 11:02. Posts 52
Profile # 

On June 27 2012 04:44 jtixs wrote:
TLDR just go latetgame, toss so imba and ez.


If you didn't put in the time to read the post don't waste my time and others by including your quip about the race I'm trying to help people get better at.

You're disrespecting the forum and everyone thats on here to learn, regardless of the quality of my post.
"If someone tells you to do something for money, tell them to go to hell"
Old Post

 
 loko1275   June 27 2012 11:49. Posts 9
Profile # 
What is the terran already have 1 turrets to his natural, just see 2 vcs die at his main, send half army, scan, build turrets during the scan, keeps playing like nothing happenened ? I mean even if he lost 400 minerals, it's only 8 marines less for his 11min push, and i wouldnt trade templar nor colossus for Dts to hold this push, even with 8 marines less.

You basically say 1 dt is 125/125 and mule is 270 so it's a fair trade, i do not agree, mineral is really cheap as protoss whereas gaz is something you never want to wast.
Last edit: 2012-06-27 11:51:00
Old Post

 
 freeshooter   United States. June 27 2012 12:06. Posts 289
Profile Blog # 
Mmm... I don't fully agree with eventually needing to step away from colossi later in the game. Sure for a brutal "oh shi-" tech switch it's very effective. Colossi are not only viable, but also great all game long if you have the stalker numbers or maybe even phoenixes to counter vikings.

Or if you're willing to have both templar and colossi on the field, that works fantastically.
Old Post

 
 Tombomb   United States. June 27 2012 12:07. Posts 52
Profile # 
you don't want to waste gas as any race, but your only spending 125 gas (which is a lot yes), but denying mules is very effective because that in effect will almost always put you ahead in economy, as chrono-boost allows you to have a higher probe count if you are on top of it. The point I was trying to make more than anything is not to fear if you feel like the Terran can brush off your harass, and was illustrating that in scanning down your dt he is suffering an economic loss.

Furthermore, if you make the effort (which depends on the level of the player executing the harass-DUH) to seriously micro the dts in his base, you should always be able to find something to attack. Be it a supply depot, add-on, anything, its still damage being done (often additional damage is done through the time you are costing him if he has to rebuild a key structure like an E-bay or a reactor).

Additionally, if you transition into charge-lot archon, a composition I would argue is time consuming more than anything, you need gas for archons, charge, and armor upgrades. This is expensive, but on four gas geysers, you should be fine even with the dt investment. Keep in mind that this transition involves an army that's bulk is mineral units (chargelots).

To be honest, I've never felt gas starved when using this tactic. Your point is valid though, you want to be able to do as much damage as possible because of the cost of dt.

Be brave sir! It takes a lot of turrets to blanket a base with detection. Find a weak point!
"If someone tells you to do something for money, tell them to go to hell"
Old Post

 
 Tombomb   United States. June 27 2012 12:14. Posts 52
Profile # 

On June 27 2012 12:06 freeshooter wrote:
Mmm... I don't fully agree with eventually needing to step away from colossi later in the game. Sure for a brutal "oh shi-" tech switch it's very effective. Colossi are not only viable, but also great all game long if you have the stalker numbers or maybe even phoenixes to counter vikings.

Or if you're willing to have both templar and colossi on the field, that works fantastically.


Yes! I love having both units in the mix, especially once the late game is at hand. I meant to put something in the guide about going double (or even triple) robo colossi as a transition once you've taken this strategy late game. 9/10 times though, I would trade my colossi for templar if I had to lose one of them. I am personally way more comfortable with templar/gateway compositions in Pvt, and truly believe they are a much better tech path. I feel extremely vulnerable when I turtle to colossi off two bases, and the build I am outlining in the guide is one of the ways I bypass that tech route/approach to the mid game.

To each his own, but my belief is that templar style compositions are stronger and save you the risk of being hard countered and KO'd by vikings relatively early in the game. A terran player could go for ghosts, but terran players don't always already have the infrastructure for ghosts, while any bio composition includes a reactor'd starport.

-I hope that is a thorough reply, I'm pretty sure I understand your point.

Update: By stepping away from colossi, I was referring to making a switch to templar with storm. This is a transition that I believe is necessary, and often requires you to cease colossus production for a short time. That was the "stepping away" I was referring to.
Last edit: 2012-06-27 12:24:45
"If someone tells you to do something for money, tell them to go to hell"
Old Post

 
 Yoshi Kirishima   United States. June 27 2012 12:25. Posts 9002
Profile Blog # 

On June 26 2012 11:58 Tombomb wrote:

Show nested quote +




Ok. So, I'm not trying to trash talk Terran. I know it sounds like that, but I'm not. "1a unit" was probably not the right phrase to use.

But regardless, they more or less are on attack move (maybe attack click on 1 of the colossi at a time [focus firing]) unless the TOSS PLAYER focus fires them (which is what you said), at which point you micro them away. The majority of this dance off usually happens before the true engagement, but during the true engagement, vikings only have one target, the colossi. The point I was trying to make is that a) Vikings are a damn good counter to colossi and b) more importantly, they're a pretty easy transition if you already have a reactor'd starport (which is what most mid-game Bio builds revolve around). And as far as focus firing and dancing away from stalkers goes, its a bit less intricate than EMPing/sniping templar.

Don't get offended, I'm just saying the countering colossi is not as involved at countering templar. Almost every time I go colossi, I feel like I spend the rest of the game catching up as far as the "rock beats scissors" race goes.




There's a significant difference if you attack and just move away to retreat and if you stutter step to chase and retreat with the max shots possible. It's hard to do but can make the difference between a colossus death or even more in a long fight. It's especially hard to do because you also need to keep your army split and make sure you handle the HTs.

But anyways, thanks for the guide, I'm considering playing Protoss.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Old Post

 
 NMHU.   Canada. June 27 2012 12:36. Posts 110
Profile # 
Gotta be honest, it sounds nice but these wall of texts got the best of me. My goal is not to be harsh but god this is hard to read. You should maybe think about paragraphing your guide. Other than that, welcome on TL, bro! :D
Old Post

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