| Adonminus Israel. June 26 2012 15:14. Posts 488 | Profile # |
Sacred Gardens (v1.2) Author: Adonminus Map Overview: ![[image loading]](http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/946/mapoverview2.jpg) Playable Map Bounds: 148x166
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Hey guys, this is my 1st seriously made 1v1 map. Though I'm not very experienced in making melee maps, I know how to make decent and good looking terrain and I'm also a high master player so that gives me knowledge how to give advantages and disadvantages to races using maps.
I appreciate any feedback, the main ideas I would like to discuss with you are listed below:
1) The rush distance is huge, and the map also contains a lot of expansion. What are your thoughts on this "macro oriented" map? Could it be boring because no one would attack or this would instead encourage using harasses and indirect attacks instead of just directly attacking with your whole army?
2) The new natural expansion is more far away, but still safe. One of the consequences is that zerg need more creep tumors to connect to it, and then they have to creep to the other side to connect with 3rd. This makes it hard to connect all three expansions with creep making it easier to pressure zerg in match ups like TvZ where people were complaining about queens and creeps. Do you think this kind of expansion layout will work? Is the natural too exposed to harassement by mutalisks or drops? How will this affect other than match ups than TvZ?
3) Island expansions were always hard to balance, either they are useless, either they are too powerful. I heard of a lot of methods, like the creep tumor on metropolis however I don't know. I simply put rocks there. Do you like the island expansion? What method of nerfing it do you prefer? Perhaps I should keep the rocks there but reduce their hp?
4) The other 2 rocks on the map open passages between the 2 paths. Allowing you to split your army and attack from both ramps. This is useful in with zerg max out roach style when you're trying to destroy the protoss 3rd, in my opinion this rocks will force the zerg to destroy them to be able to deal with the protoss 3rd by doing attacks from both sides, delaying the zerg push and giving more time for protoss to prepare. Any thoughts of on those rocks? I think they're pretty well placed and serve a good role.
5) The map has 2 paths to attack. Do you think this may lead to a lot of base trades? Will this require the addition of more watch towers? Or is it a brilliant idea?
6) The main's size is a bit small. (About 26.5 CCs) However you got extra space in the path between main-nat. Terran is the race that usually requires a lot of building space. As a terran player do you think you have enough space to build in the main, nat and between areas?
7) To pylon block you'll have to do it on the high ground of the nat. Like this, your main choke won't be blocked and you'll be able to safely cancel your nat hatchery and expand to the 3rd. Also please check if there's any abuseful cannon positions.
8) There are 2 possible 4ths on this map. Which one do you prefer? What would you do to make the other one better?
The map is currently published on EU for testing. If you want to test it on NA, message me and I'll publish it there too as soon as I can. I plan to submit this to.
I also plan to submit this to MotM ProAm.
Thanks for your feedback.
+ Show Spoiler +Last edit: 2012-06-27 03:01:56 |
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| Insomni7 June 26 2012 15:35. Posts 601 | Profile # |
| I feel like this map is gonna fall into the trap of having an unbreakable 3 bases. 2 narrow chokes are the only entrances. I am not an experienced mapmaker, but it looks like a hardcore turtle map to me. You can hold 3 base so easily and then if you attack up one lane, your opponent might just counter down the other. This is especially true in zerg matchups and perhaps to an extent tvt. |
| | "Lay the egg, become the god" |
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| ScorpSCII Denmark. June 26 2012 15:36. Posts 295 | Profile # |
The map size is unnecessarily huge. You could easily decrease sizes of the middle area, making the rush distance shorter, while not changing paths nor expansions.
I kind of like the idea of the natural expansion, but the way it is currently, makes it very exposed to harass, and does not benefit the defender at all. |
| | Author of Atlas | Dreamforge Mapmaking Team |
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| Adonminus Israel. June 26 2012 15:45. Posts 488 | Profile # |
On June 26 2012 15:35 Insomni7 wrote:
I feel like this map is gonna fall into the trap of having an unbreakable 3 bases. 2 narrow chokes are the only entrances. I am not an experienced mapmaker, but it looks like a hardcore turtle map to me. You can hold 3 base so easily and then if you attack up one lane, your opponent might just counter down the other. This is especially true in zerg matchups and perhaps to an extent tvt.
Based on some feedback from players played on this map, the expansions aren't that easy to defend. I think the difficulty of expansion defense is comparable to the one of cloud kingdom, maybe even harder if we don't consider the rush distances. It's basicly only the rush distances which may make it a turtle map.
The 2 path issue with counterattacks/base trade is present in a lot of maps like daybreak or ohana and more. I would like to hear some additional feedback on this and also perhaps how it could be improved or fixed.
On June 26 2012 15:36 ScorpSCII wrote:
The map size is unnecessarily huge. You could easily decrease sizes of the middle area, making the rush distance shorter, while not changing paths nor expansions.
I kind of like the idea of the natural expansion, but the way it is currently, makes it very exposed to harass, and does not benefit the defender at all.
Yeah, I heard that's it's a bit too large. I'll try to decrease the size of the middle area and make the map a bit smaller.
Any ideas how to make the natural less exposed to harass? I made water around to prevent stuff like blink stalker harasses. |
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| Guardian85 June 26 2012 15:55. Posts 155 | Profile # |
From what i've been told, you should atleast try get 3 attackpaths.
I cant see how anyone would bother to try for 5th and 6th down in the middle, when the have 4 bases already this seperate from the enemy base, with a drop in island.
a little to much dead space from diagnoal 10 o'clock to 4 o'clock.
Nice natural look of the map however, and good positioning of main and up to 4th base, but its the rest you need to work with in my opinion, like shortening down the middle.
Good luck  Last edit: 2012-06-26 15:56:26 |
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| Adonminus Israel. June 26 2012 18:26. Posts 488 | Profile # |
I have shortened the map, and remade the other 4th. Here's how it looks now:
Playable Map Bounds: 148x166Last edit: 2012-06-26 18:28:02 |
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| Callynn Netherlands. June 26 2012 21:12. Posts 877 | Profile # |
I think this approach is very bold. It clearly shows that players should be looking for more air-heavy play and / or harass if they want to break the macro style of an opponent. This does however, narrow down the possible timing pushes that could be performed.
The limitations in entrances are favoring Terran at the moment due to tanks being the first zone control unit that can be made in the game, however the large space for air harass around the natural makes this easy to shut down a greedy macroing player.
I'm just not sure what to make of it, but it certainly looks interesting.
Points of improvement should clearly go to the seemingly huge and empty middle. I'm not talking about aesthetics alone, but really about the wideness of some of the middle positions. As a Zerg, I am in love instantly, but I feel sorry for any Terran or Protoss army caught off-guard there.
I also think you should remove the destructible rocks on the islands, or they may never be used at all (since taking a 3 base position is easy for pretty much any race as it is right now).
Also, consider up opening the middle attack path to the fourth. Right now, it seems a bit too easy to defend (though I can't be sure of the highground range harass for colossi and tanks from there). |
| | Comparing BW with SCII is like comparing a beautiful three-master sailing ship with a modern battlecruiser. Both are beautiful in their own way, both perform the same task, but they are worlds apart in how they are built and how they are steered. |
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 CaptainCrush United States. June 26 2012 21:29. Posts 784 | Profile Blog # |
Didnt pay attention to a single thing after I saw 148x192 - and that was one of the first things I saw.
W T F |
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| Callynn Netherlands. June 26 2012 22:31. Posts 877 | Profile # |
On June 26 2012 21:29 CaptainCrush wrote:
Didnt pay attention to a single thing after I saw 148x192 - and that was one of the first things I saw.
W T F
There is nothing wrong with being openminded and constructive to someone trying to improve his mapmaking, though. And you are being neither.
@adonminus: Don't forget to edit your OP with the new bounds.Last edit: 2012-06-26 22:33:29 |
| | Comparing BW with SCII is like comparing a beautiful three-master sailing ship with a modern battlecruiser. Both are beautiful in their own way, both perform the same task, but they are worlds apart in how they are built and how they are steered. |
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| Adonminus Israel. June 26 2012 22:43. Posts 488 | Profile # |
On June 26 2012 21:29 CaptainCrush wrote:
Didnt pay attention to a single thing after I saw 148x192 - and that was one of the first things I saw.
W T F
Oh sorry yes, I fixed it. It's 148x166. |
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| HeeroFX United States. June 26 2012 22:57. Posts 1915 | Profile Blog # |
| I like it but it does look werid I think I will have to play on it to really see it in action. |
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| moskonia Israel. June 26 2012 23:27. Posts 938 | Profile # |
| When giving it another look I think you should maybe make a place for overlords to rest without being spotted, since the long distance it would help them if there was a small unpathable high ground area near the 3rd where they can rest until they go suicide for scouting. |
| | "He who learns to walk, should never crawl again" | |
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| FlaShFTW United States. June 27 2012 01:16. Posts 4963 | Profile Blog # |
not a bad idea. i mean the natural is weird... we'll need some tests to see if that's really viable.
the ramp that closer to the natural can be changed so instead of having that extra land and having the ramp point in an awkward direction, just have the ramps point to the middle bases. (for bottom base, take the right ramp and point it at the inside 3 o clock base by getting rid of that extra land. gives the map a more natural flow.
dont like the third gas placement. seems too close to the ramp... solve this by pushing the third more into the main?
4th's too close the the third.
dont liek the middle bases. too chokey at that area. |
| | Never Surrender. Never GG. Always Fighting. BW4LYF. Woo Jung Ho Never Forget. |
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| Arghnews United Kingdom. June 27 2012 01:47. Posts 166 | Profile # |
DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUDEEE :D
Now that is one intro-resting map. Real innovation rather than the usual tiny alterations we get. Nevertheless, you'd really have to test this map alot, as there is a balance-related reason why we usually only have small alterations on the norm. I'd love to see more maps that are incredibly diverse, such as this, however, like in BW. It's definitely different, my first reaction was that the natural expo was not there, but instead was at the 3rd XD I hope you can find a way to make this work :D
Early toss air play could hurt zerg for instance here, as with huge distance between 3rd/nat/main you'll need really good creep spread from the off and many queen to stop air units bouncing between main/3rd.Last edit: 2012-06-27 01:49:45 |
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| Guardian85 June 28 2012 03:22. Posts 155 | Profile # |
You forgot to texture your cliffwalker access ramp on your south nat.
But i do like the changes you've done to the middle.
However i still think if i were you i'd throw in a few doodads or giant rocks just here and there, to obstruct / split up the emptiness in some of the open space in the middle.
This is roughly where i personally woulda placed either some doodads or tall rocks.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2uh3B.jpg) Last edit: 2012-06-28 03:31:18 |
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| Infidler Norway. June 28 2012 19:18. Posts 43 | Profile # |
nice map, but imagine cloaked banshee in the earlygame in ZvT. those queens would need some new legs
it would force you to 1 base zerg :/Last edit: 2012-06-28 19:20:14 |
| | Goal; get one of my maps on the ladder. |
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| moskonia Israel. June 28 2012 19:58. Posts 938 | Profile # |
| I have checked it and it takes 3 creep tumors to reach the natural from the main, so with 15hatch 16pool you get the creep connected in time I think (will check exact timing later) |
| | "He who learns to walk, should never crawl again" | |
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| Yonnua United Kingdom. June 28 2012 20:01. Posts 1046 | Profile Blog # |
On June 28 2012 19:58 moskonia wrote:
I have checked it and it takes 3 creep tumors to reach the natural from the main, so with 15hatch 16pool you get the creep connected in time I think (will check exact timing later)
No you don't because you use the queen energy on injects. Forcing zerg to lose a massive amount of production early game is pretty devastating. |
| | PartinG | NaNiwa | Creator | Mvp | Bomber | Oz | FanTaSy | JangBi |
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| moskonia Israel. June 28 2012 20:21. Posts 938 | Profile # |
| Currently Terran is struggling against Zerg from my understanding so I think forcing them to make an early tumor is alright if they want to be greedy and not make 2 spores per base and defend with mostly queens. Maps should start to have features that favor Terran in TvZ, at least until the metagame changes or there is a balance change. |
| | "He who learns to walk, should never crawl again" | |
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| Adonminus Israel. July 02 2012 02:10. Posts 488 | Profile # |
Thanks for the feedback guys, I was busy with a tournament I had last week so now I'll try to improve this map abit and then submit it to MotM ProAm.
@Guardian85 I'll consider adding some of the doodads. |
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