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 JingleHell United States. June 28 2012 03:37. Posts 11262 | Profile Blog # |
Common Misconceptions In PC Hardware
Note, this thread doesn't exist to replace the Simple Questions or Computer Build threads.
Treat it as an addendum, if anything. It's a place to consolidate information that comes up regularly, as a reference source. Kind of an FAQ, if you will.
Feel free to contribute something if you think it's appropriate, and I'll get it into the OP. Including any personal conclusions or differing opinions on the current topics.
(I do reserve the right to refuse to add in anything based off of bad information.)
Handy Hyperlinks. Click for appropriate section.
I Need Tons of Video RAM!
This used to be the case, back when graphics cards were basically just an add-in card with tons of RAM for use in rendering graphics. Now days, however, most graphics cards
commercially available that are even vaguely functional for any sort of real 3D gaming (used here to mean gaming rendering 3D graphics, not some pop out of your screen headache shit) will have more than enough RAM for standard resolutions. Generally, the video RAM will either be stock as more than your GPU can actually use, or reasonably well balanced with the GPU.
Since this is the case, more video RAM on the same card is frequently wasted money, although some benefits will be seen at truly extreme resolutions and super high graphics, or in truly high-end multi-GPU rigs. (Each GPU in a multi-GPU rig will be needing to load the same textures into it's memory to avoid oversaturating PCIe bandwidth talking between the cards, so 3x powerful 1GB cards will be 3 times the computational power, but still essentially be 1GB of video RAM. )
RAM Makes my PC Faster!
This, also, dates back quite a ways technologically. Back when you still talked about megabytes of RAM, and internet connections ran somewhere between "corpse" and "snail", it was pretty much inevitable that adding RAM would let more of your software load at a time. Especially since Hard Drives were still tiny, and most games at least partially ran off of external media like CD's. The more you could get into RAM at a time, with slow, small drives, and slow CD-ROMs, the better.
Most users with modern hardware will stop seeing a significant difference somewhere between 4GB and 8GB of RAM, unless they're using software that soaks up a ton of RAM, or running a RAMdisk. And with a lot of memory-intensive software, unless you're making money off your use of it, 4-8GB will still be sufficient.
More fans = Better cooling!
This is only true in limited ways. Theoretically, yes, the more air that moves over your heatsinks, the better, but practically, you'll end up seeing cases that are practically built out of fans getting worse thermal performance than cases with only a couple of fans. This has to do with direction of airflow and dead air space.
If you have 20 fans, but the air runs around like a chicken with it's head cut off, it doesn't cool very well due to the turbulence. If the air is getting pushed into your CPU cooler from two different directions, the fans are busy fighting, and the hot air doesn't escape efficiently.
Effective ventilation is almost always better than more ventilation, unless it's just plain insufficient ventilation with decent direction.
More cores makes me faster!
Ever heard the saying "Too many cooks spoil the broth"? Having more cores doesn't do shit if the software can't use them. Imagine if you had 4 brooms and needed to sweep a floor. With two arms, does having extra brooms make you sweep faster, or does it just let you tell people that you have more brooms than them?
Always check the software you plan to use, and see if it performs well with more cores.
Here's a simple experiment. Open your task manager, and go to performance with your usual background shit open. Unless your "usual background shit" falls into the category of "sheer fucking lunacy", odds are, you're below 7% average CPU usage, if your PC isn't an utter piece of shit. That means, IF you're going to be fully utilising all your cores, you lose 7% or less performance.
If you're not fully utilizing your CPU, you're losing less. This frequently falls into "who cares" territory.
Wabbit
You touched on this, but I'll go ahead and add: for home & office PC's, the CPU spends the vast majority of its time doing absolutely nothing (look at System Idle Process in your Task Manager; compare the time shown in the CPU Time column to all other processes listed combined - the % idle time is often around 98%). Yes, you can run your facebook game, media player, Hulu video, and 50 firefox/chrome tabs at the same time seamlessly on any modern (meaning from the past 5 or so years) dual-core because CPU's are fast enough for the way most people use them (I don't want to get into the details, but a single CPU core can handle multiple programs by alternately executing some of the instructions of each program; a modern core is fast enough that it can handle multiple simple programs and deliver what looks like simultaneous execution to the end user).
In most cases, your PC is not as responsive as you'd like due to having to access data from slow storage (HDD). This is what SSD's are for.
Note: Wabbit has stated that he overdid this point for emphasis. While it's not completely idle, it is relatively un-demanding, which is all he meant.
TheToast
The whole "CPU spends it's time doing nothing" is partially wrong. You're right in the sense that it's not devoting itself to a specific PID, but Windows is just about always doing something in the background. Whether it's indexing search results or superfetch is caching applications in free memory--just because you don't see the CPU cycles assigned to a PID doesn't mean the CPU isn't being used. In any case it's a bit of a side track from your main point about HDD seek time, which is still correct.
AMD is for budget builds.
I'm not going to go fully insane on this one, we've done it to death. But outside of some niche uses, AMD rarely wins for most budgets. If you're on a super tiny budget and need extra physical cores, sometimes, AMD will slightly edge out Intel on price/performance in the current market. Outside that, however, on raw performance per dollar, (factoring in motherboard as well) Intel is almost always better now.
If you're already on certain AMD platforms, and need the lowest budget option with more cores (say, for streaming), sometimes upgrading on the same platform makes sense. Otherwise, on a new build, just get Intel.
Multi-GPU sucks because of microstutters!
People go screaming this without paying any attention to detail on a very regular basis, and I'm completely fucking sick of it.
If you're running a rational multi-GPU rig (one that can play your games at your settings at 60 FPS+, at 1080p), you're not going to really feel microstuttering. If you're running at 60 FPS, on a 60Hz display, the average frametime will be ~16-17ms. 16/1000s of a second. Most benches of microstutters at these framerates will show the longer frames lasting maybe close to 20ms, but really, if you're running at 60+ constant, most of the time it's more than 60, so the long frametimes will be 16-17ms due to vsync.
That's the shortest duration a frame can be on your screen anyways, and the difference between 2-4 thousandths of a second is so fucking tiny that you're going to have serious trouble noticing it.
Now yes, the stuttering might cause trouble if your multi-GPU rig is still weak for your resolution or settings, but frankly, if your PC is weak for the games you play, the way you play them, your performance is going to be visible sub-optimal for all kinds of reasons, and stuttering will STILL beat the piss out of having ~40-45% less FPS in GPU limited games.
I need a big PSU!
Right. And I'm sure you were convinced by someone who either always deals with corporate type rigs, or someone who sells parts, right? The fact is, modern gaming hardware doesn't suck down nearly as much power as most people think.
Suggested PSU wattage from manufacturers is due to the facts that A: they don't know exactly what is going inside your case, and B: a lot of PSU manufacturers should really be getting the ever living shit sued out of them for fraud.
Also, most PSU calculators exist to sell products, and the ones that don't require enough hardware knowledge as to be utterly useless for most people who need one to begin with.
Synthetic Benchmarks are all useless!
Not true. Some synthetic benchmarks are crap, yes. Others are useful, if you understand the results, and some are useful if you have other baselines to work with alongside them. Now, in general, a synthetic benchmark that only tests one specific thing, like RAM, is going to be fairly craptacular for the majority of users. "Oh look, this memory is 12% faster than that memory, assuming absolutely no other component limits you in any way! That's not a real world situation in any stretch of the imagination.
That's like that one Chevy ad where they tell you the car does 0-60 in 0.4 seconds, when it's dropped out of an airplane. That's funny, and cool, but it really doesn't mean shit to people who plan to drive the car. Except that they own a car with a really funny ad.
Passmark, for example... well, I'm not sure what it benchmarks, price points, possibly, because the results seem vaguely imaginary compared to real performance of roughly anything.
3Dmark can be useful, but only when put alongside other benchmarks. If you have a baseline of a stock system in a game and 3dmark, and then get a 3dmark score overclocked, IF you know what the limiting hardware is in that game, you can get a vague idea how much good you did yourself. Other than that, it's mostly for e-peenery or tweaking purposes.
I need new features to future-proof!
No, you really don't. Unless you frequently buy new shit just because it's there, or know you need a feature down the road, you probably won't end up using all of the available features even if you buy them, so why pay more for them?
For example. USB 3.0. So many people still don't use this, and a lot of us don't expect everyone to really adopt it until it's the new standard. Most USB devices don't really benefit from USB3, aside from external storage and similar type devices. So unless you have an actual need for fast external storage, and don't want to pay out to do it properly, USB3.0 is just going to be a waste.
If you don't know when you'll need it, and it's not a baseline feature, you probably won't need it before it is a baseline feature, and by then, your PC is going to be so fucking obsolete that you'll be upgrading anyways, so who cares?
"I'll probably do multi-GPU down the road" is a really common way to throw money down a "future proof" rathole.
By the time you've saved ~$75-80 on the motherboard and PSU, you could just buy a new GPU in the same price point as your current one in a year and a half or two years, for ~150-160% of the performance at similar power draw. And before you say "Oh but multiple GPUs can scale to almost 200% performance now days", yes, I'm aware. But not when a game first comes out, which, as we all know, is when most people buy games.
At release, you're looking at ~140-160% after scaling, at higher power draw, more noise, and more heat. If you ever get around to it. If there isn't a new directX version that mandates an upgrade. If you don't decide to start mining or folding. In other words... unless you want to do it just for funsies, (don't forget that this IS a luxury item, and you're allowed to have fun with it however you so please), it may not be worth the money to you.
Electrostatic Discharge
This was brought up by Wabbit and Toast, and I'll drop their perspectives right after I stick my nose into the argument.
Frankly, this one is both over and understated. The odds of shit just going kablooey are much lower than most people make it out to be. Being within a mile of carpet doesn't just instagib your expensive PC. By the same token, a lot of people treat it like something to ignore completely. I personally say, if it's reasonably possible for you, go ahead and follow basic precautions, like avoiding carpet when building. That said, I don't think the majority of users need a wrist strap grounded to a workbench over a glass floor, in a room with full decontamination measures, that they only enter naked.
Use common sense, and don't avoid precautions out of pure laziness, in my opinion.
TheToast
Absolute yes on the static thing. Def can include "you need a static bracelet" to this list. As long as you are careful to discharge yourself before sticking your hands in the case, there's really no risk. Even then it's really only a concern for people who live in dry climates or during the winter
Wabbit
"Electro-Static Discharge is overblown and not much of a concern." Oh, yes it is. Just because something isn't immediately dead doesn't mean it hasn't suffered some sort of permanent damage that may decrease its lifespan and/or cause instability/funky issues.
CPU and GPU need to be the same brand
Courtesy Wabbit
AMD video cards only work on AMD motherboards"; or "the performance is reduced on Intel mobo's." Also, "Nvidia only works with Intel."
Yes, a painful myth I didn't think of. Thanks for pointing it out.
The only case where this has ever significantly mattered in recent generations was before nVidia was willing to license SLI support for AMD motherboards, at least that I know of. As always, check support, but buy what you want or need. Don't worry that brand will limit you there. (The private JH opinion is that you should always buy nVidia anyways, since EVGA doesn't make AMD cards, and their support is always worth having, unless you build your shit and forget it. Most of the other regulars do NOT share this opinion.)
I need matching RAM
TheToast
I still hear all kinds of nonsense about RAM dimms for some reason too. I've heard crap like "it's best to have dimms of the same size", or that less larger dimms are better than smaller ones, etc. When in reality, on modern boards all that really matters is that to enable dual channel memory you need to have the same total size of memory in each channel. And even then dual channel memory is going to have a very small performance effect on gaming. Much more important for high end software applications.
Thermal Paste
On June 28 2012 05:51 Nabutso wrote:
"You need a lot of thermal paste to keep your CPU cool" not true at all. The paste simply fills the cracks/grooves/nonperfect machine cut of the cpu die and the heatsink. Since the paste conducts heat better than air, it lowers temps. Using to much paste will cause the heat transfer to weaken since the heat moves slower through the paste than it does the metal from the heatsink. This is why an extremely thin layer (created by either the rice-in-the-middle or the spread-with-plastic-bag-and-finger meathod) works, and a thick layer does not. Also, all pastes are basically the same and you'd be wasting money purchasing a 'premium' paste.
JH: While I agree with some of this sentiment, certain bits aren't worded quite the way I'd put it. I definitely don't suggest pre-spreading in general, or EVER using a finger, as hand oils can interfere with thermal conductivity. All pastes aren't created equal, but unless you're overclocking like a beast and need every scrap of thermal overhead you can get, odds are, the extra money will do better going to the cooler itself.
On June 28 2012 05:54 TheToast wrote:
Actually, there is a difference in the performance of different thermal compounds. I think it was JH who linked the results of some tests done with different products on the market in his cooling thread.
Also, the type of spread that is best to use depends on the CPU model in question. Each has a slightly different heat distribution, even different models from the same manufacturer. Again, check JH's cooling thread for a link to Artic Silver's guide for to the best spread method for each processor. Apparently their product team actually tested every different kind on each model to determine the best.
On June 28 2012 06:20 Wabbit wrote:
Yup, there is a difference - it's just that proper application matters more, unless you have some of the worst paste possible, like the crap Cooler Master used to (still does?) ship with the 212+
This is mostly of concern to people who need to buy a tube of paste. If you're going to spend a few $ on paste, might as well get something like Prolimatech PK-1 since it's dirt cheap and one of the best, instead of the institutionalized and worshipped AS5, which is bad and expensive (or just expensive for what it is, depending how you look at it; I would consider it awesome if it was $2 per 4g tube with free shipping)
On June 28 2012 06:57 TheToast wrote:
Also need to mention that stupid myth about reapplying thermal compound once per year. I don't know who started that, but it's completely stupid. For starters, if you get some quality thermal compound, the stuff will last for years; possibly the entire life of the PC. Replacing it regularly is actually going to make your temps worse as virtually all the products on the market have a "break in period" during which the compound changes it's molecular composition as it heats and becomes more effective. For some products, their rated for something like 50+ hours of PC operation across multiple power cycles.
How much of an effect on temps this actually has is a bit debatably, part of the problem is each CPU can have the temperature diode in different parts of the processor so it's hard to compare exactly, Yyou're obviously not going to drop 10 degrees, but there is a real change in temps--at least a degree or two. So regularly changing out the thermal compound can have the opposite effect that it's claimed to.
Not sure where this silly notion started, but it's flat wrong...
I Need Water Cooling
On June 28 2012 05:51 Nabutso wrote:
"I need water cooling, and I choose you, closed loop water cooling!"
The difference between a closed loop and a self-built water cooling system is like the difference between a prebuilt PC and building your own. You don't know exactly what you're buying (the pumps on closed loops are generally terrible at moving water) or if you really need what you're getting (the guy who walks into staples and needs to buy the i7 PC for his daughter's facebook machine). A decent air cooler that'll cost you $20 can do the job of an expensive closed loop. If you're spending a huge amount on the closed loop, it might be better than cheap air, but you may aswell build your own system for the same price. Unless you're doing some hardcore OCing (I'm saying with voltages that are unsafe in the first place) then you don't need water.
JH:Pretty much this. There's circumstances involving moving your PC around a lot where closed loop can be better than a tower heatsink you need to remove regularly, but in most cases, high end air competes quite well with closed loop water, for less money. If you don't need a real loop, you probably don't need a loop at all.
Overclocking Kills Shit Fast
On June 28 2012 05:51 Nabutso wrote:
"If I overclock my PC, it's going to burn out!"
CPUs are designed to live for something like 500,000 hours. Overclocking shortens this lifespan, yes, but your CPU will long outlast your uses for it, since in 20 years you won't be using the same system. Overclocking at high voltages sometimes causes what is called 'chip degradation' (infact, this is all I ever see it cause) which means that the chip requires a small amount of extra voltage over time. Think of a car with an old engine, after 300,000 miles you need to put some better gas into it to run the same as it used to. Higher voltages cause quicker degradation, and every chip is unique. Some users have chips at 1.5volts that haven't degraded, and some have chips at 1.35v that have.
Overclocking is free performance and generally safe. In the worst case, you'll be able to go back to stock clocks without having to raise volts above stock. Overclocking is safe, if you don't mind extra stress on your system. But remember, do it wisely. Is 100mhz worth a huge voltage increase?
.
JH: Overclocking shouldn't be approached as "free performance", but it's definitely something to consider. It's not too difficult, and as long as you aren't going crazy, and are cooling your stuff well, it's not liable to do significant, excessive damage. Yes, it technically does damage, but nobody really knows how fast it kills things, because nobody would care about how long hardware lasts OCed at certain voltages by the time they had an answer.
As something to consider, though, unless you actually need or want more performance for a specific reason, overclocking may not be a great idea for everyone. It's kind of down to whether you need the performance, especially since you will be paying more to do it.
Disclaimer
Now bear in mind, none of this is intended to talk you out of spending money how you want. This is just to answer some shit that comes up far too often, where people have painful misconceptions about hardware. We're going to answer questions based on evidence, personal opinions, and whatever information you actually give us. If you just want to do something for shits and giggles, GO AHEAD. However, in such cases, do NOT expect any or all of us to agree with your decision, or justify your reasoning for you. Last edit: 2012-06-28 07:02:19 |
| | http://jinglehelltech.blogspot.com -- Pics of my rig in Profile |
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| Wabbit United States. June 28 2012 04:09. Posts 1005 | Profile # |
Good post, right on target.
A few other common myths (false, of course) I still see flying around:
- "AMD video cards only work on AMD motherboards"; or "the performance is reduced on Intel mobo's." Also, "Nvidia only works with Intel."
- "more cores = better "multi-tasking"
You touched on this, but I'll go ahead and add: for home & office PC's, the CPU spends the vast majority of its time doing absolutely nothing (look at System Idle Process in your Task Manager; compare the time shown in the CPU Time column to all other processes listed combined - the % idle time is often around 98%). Yes, you can run your facebook game, media player, Hulu video, and 50 firefox/chrome tabs at the same time seamlessly on any modern (meaning from the past 5 or so years) dual-core because CPU's are fast enough for the way most people use them (I don't want to get into the details, but a single CPU core can handle multiple programs by alternately executing some of the instructions of each program; a modern core is fast enough that it can handle multiple simple programs and deliver what looks like simultaneous execution to the end user).
In most cases, your PC is not as responsive as you'd like due to having to access data from slow storage (HDD). This is what SSD's are for.
- "Electro-Static Discharge is overblown and not much of a concern." Oh, yes it is. Just because something isn't immediately dead doesn't mean it hasn't suffered some sort of permanent damage that may decrease its lifespan and/or cause instability/funky issues. Last edit: 2012-06-28 04:17:49 |
| | [QUOTE][B]On July 29 2011 13:35 R1CH wrote:[/B] 575W PSU for $25? ಠ_ಠ[/QUOTE] |
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| TheToast United States. June 28 2012 04:22. Posts 4804 | Profile Blog # |
On June 28 2012 04:09 Wabbit wrote:
Good post, right on target.
A few other common myths (false, of course) I still see flying around:
- "AMD video cards only work on AMD motherboards"; or "the performance is reduced on Intel mobo's." Also, "Nvidia only works with Intel."
- "more cores = better "multi-tasking"
You touched on this, but I'll go ahead and add: for home & office PC's, the CPU spends the vast majority of its time doing absolutely nothing (look at System Idle Process in your Task Manager; compare the time shown in the CPU Time column to all other processes listed combined - the % idle time is often around 98%). Yes, you can run your facebook game, media player, Hulu video, and 50 firefox/chrome tabs at the same time seamlessly on any modern (meaning from the past 5 or so years) dual-core because CPU's are fast enough for the way most people use them (I don't want to get into the details, but a single CPU core can handle multiple programs by alternately executing some of the instructions of each program; a modern core is fast enough that it can handle multiple simple programs and deliver what looks like simultaneous execution to the end user).
In most cases, your PC is not as responsive as you'd like due to having to access data from slow storage (HDD). This is what SSD's are for.
- Electro-Static Discharge is overblown and not much of a concern.
Absolute yes on the static thing. Def can include "you need a static bracelet" to this list. As long as you are careful to discharge yourself before sticking your hands in the case, there's really no risk. Even then it's really only a concern for people who live in dry climates or during the winter
The whole "CPU spends it's time doing nothing" is partially wrong. You're right in the sense that it's not devoting itself to a specific PID, but Windows is just about always doing something in the background. Whether it's indexing search results or superfetch is caching applications in free memory--just because you don't see the CPU cycles assigned to a PID doesn't mean the CPU isn't being used. In any case it's a bit of a side track from your main point about HDD seek time, which is still correct.
I still hear all kinds of nonsense about RAM dimms for some reason too. I've heard crap like "it's best to have dimms of the same size", or that less larger dimms are better than smaller ones, etc. When in reality, on modern boards all that really matters is that to enable dual channel memory you need to have the same total size of memory in each channel. And even then dual channel memory is going to have a very small performance effect on gaming. Much more important for high end software applications.
Either way, good job JH. I like the concept of a "Tech Myths thread", good idea! Now when people are asking vague blanket questions about building a computer we can send them this link for some reading instead of re-writing all of it all the time. 
-edit: JH I hope you keep this up-to date as we encounter more of these stupid misconceptions that people have. You could create quite the useful list.
Last edit: 2012-06-28 04:25:03 |
| | I like the way the walls go out. Gives you an open feeling. Firefly's a good design. People don't appreciate the substance of things. Objects in space. People miss out on what's solid. | |
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| JingleHell United States. June 28 2012 04:37. Posts 11262 | Profile Blog # |
| I'm going to try to keep it up to date, and see if it seems to actually be getting used as a resource. If it fades into oblivion, I'll probably not dump much time into it, for obvious reasons. |
| | http://jinglehelltech.blogspot.com -- Pics of my rig in Profile |
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| iTzSnypah United States. June 28 2012 04:48. Posts 1216 | Profile Blog # | |
| | Team Liquid needs more Terrans. |
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| Nabutso June 28 2012 05:03. Posts 351 | Profile # |
"You need a good 5 inch layer of thermal paste to keep your cpu nice and cool"
Or how about even motherboard size? Plenty of people think they need atx in an atx case, but can save $20-$50 getting matx.
Or something about closed loop water cooling?
Or how overclocking means you're going to destroy your computer any time before it's obsolete. |
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| Wabbit United States. June 28 2012 05:04. Posts 1005 | Profile # |
On June 28 2012 04:22 TheToast wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Absolute yes on the static thing. Def can include "you need a static bracelet" to this list. As long as you are careful to discharge yourself before sticking your hands in the case, there's really no risk. Even then it's really only a concern for people who live in dry climates or during the winter The whole "CPU spends it's time doing nothing" is partially wrong. You're right in the sense that it's not devoting itself to a specific PID, but Windows is just about always doing something in the background. Whether it's indexing search results or superfetch is caching applications in free memory--just because you don't see the CPU cycles assigned to a PID doesn't mean the CPU isn't being used. In any case it's a bit of a side track from your main point about HDD seek time, which is still correct. I still hear all kinds of nonsense about RAM dimms for some reason too. I've heard crap like "it's best to have dimms of the same size", or that less larger dimms are better than smaller ones, etc. When in reality, on modern boards all that really matters is that to enable dual channel memory you need to have the same total size of memory in each channel. And even then dual channel memory is going to have a very small performance effect on gaming. Much more important for high end software applications. Either way, good job JH. I like the concept of a "Tech Myths thread", good idea! Now when people are asking vague blanket questions about building a computer we can send them this link for some reading instead of re-writing all of it all the time. -edit: JH I hope you keep this up-to date as we encounter more of these stupid misconceptions that people have. You could create quite the useful list.
About the CPU thing: I used some strong words there which seem to be implying the wrong thing, and I can see why. You're right and I agree, the CPU it is doing those things, but even those things take up very few CPU cycles (still leaving it idle most of the time because in CPU-time, those things happen extremely fast) and do not impair a PC's ability to handle multiple basic tasks which people think they need quad-cores for to "multi-task" properly (thanks AMD and Intel for marketing this; yes Intel markets this idea also).Last edit: 2012-06-28 05:05:11 |
| | [QUOTE][B]On July 29 2011 13:35 R1CH wrote:[/B] 575W PSU for $25? ಠ_ಠ[/QUOTE] |
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| JingleHell United States. June 28 2012 05:05. Posts 11262 | Profile Blog # |
On June 28 2012 05:03 Nabutso wrote:
"You need a good 5 inch layer of thermal paste to keep your cpu nice and cool"
Or how about even motherboard size? Plenty of people think they need atx in an atx case, but can save $20-$50 getting matx.
Or something about closed loop water cooling?
Or how overclocking means you're going to destroy your computer any time before it's obsolete.
Feel free to throw up an actual answer to those, and I'll slap it into the whole thing, along with my thoughts. At this point, when there's still a lot of room to grow, if I take a lot of submissions purely in the form of "Myth that needs an answer", I'd be swamped and hate this thread in minutes. But yeah, those categories could use some love.Last edit: 2012-06-28 05:08:02 |
| | http://jinglehelltech.blogspot.com -- Pics of my rig in Profile |
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| TheToast United States. June 28 2012 05:11. Posts 4804 | Profile Blog # |
On June 28 2012 05:05 JingleHell wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 05:03 Nabutso wrote:
"You need a good 5 inch layer of thermal paste to keep your cpu nice and cool"
Or how about even motherboard size? Plenty of people think they need atx in an atx case, but can save $20-$50 getting matx.
Or something about closed loop water cooling?
Or how overclocking means you're going to destroy your computer any time before it's obsolete.
Feel free to throw up an actual answer to those, and I'll slap it into the whole thing, along with my thoughts. At this point, when there's still a lot of room to grow, if I take submissions purely in the form of "Myth that needs an answer", I'd be swamped and hate this thread in minutes. But yeah, those categories could use some love.
Lol, you could do three threads on overclocking myths alone.
On June 28 2012 05:04 Wabbit wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 04:22 TheToast wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Absolute yes on the static thing. Def can include "you need a static bracelet" to this list. As long as you are careful to discharge yourself before sticking your hands in the case, there's really no risk. Even then it's really only a concern for people who live in dry climates or during the winter The whole "CPU spends it's time doing nothing" is partially wrong. You're right in the sense that it's not devoting itself to a specific PID, but Windows is just about always doing something in the background. Whether it's indexing search results or superfetch is caching applications in free memory--just because you don't see the CPU cycles assigned to a PID doesn't mean the CPU isn't being used. In any case it's a bit of a side track from your main point about HDD seek time, which is still correct. I still hear all kinds of nonsense about RAM dimms for some reason too. I've heard crap like "it's best to have dimms of the same size", or that less larger dimms are better than smaller ones, etc. When in reality, on modern boards all that really matters is that to enable dual channel memory you need to have the same total size of memory in each channel. And even then dual channel memory is going to have a very small performance effect on gaming. Much more important for high end software applications. Either way, good job JH. I like the concept of a "Tech Myths thread", good idea! Now when people are asking vague blanket questions about building a computer we can send them this link for some reading instead of re-writing all of it all the time. -edit: JH I hope you keep this up-to date as we encounter more of these stupid misconceptions that people have. You could create quite the useful list.
About the CPU thing: I used some strong words there which seem to be implying the wrong thing, and I can see why. You're right and I agree, the CPU it is doing those things, but even those things take up very few CPU cycles (still leaving it idle most of the time because in CPU-time, those things happen extremely fast) and do not impair a PC's ability to handle multiple basic tasks which people think they need quad-cores for to "multi-task" properly (thanks AMD and Intel for marketing this; yes Intel markets this idea also).
Okay, I get what your saying now and yes I agree.
Being within a mile of carpet doesn't just instagib your expensive PC
Lol.
(PS wouldn't a glass floor increase the risk of static charge since it's a non-metal? eh, nvm  )
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| | I like the way the walls go out. Gives you an open feeling. Firefly's a good design. People don't appreciate the substance of things. Objects in space. People miss out on what's solid. | |
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| JingleHell United States. June 28 2012 05:15. Posts 11262 | Profile Blog # |
A glass surface won't help generate a static charge, so assuming you ground yourself at some point, it's relatively ideal.
And yeah, overclocking and cooling myths can take up a LOT of discussion time.
Threw in a note to cover Wabbit's response covering intent on that. |
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| TheMooseHeed United Kingdom. June 28 2012 05:21. Posts 464 | Profile # |
| Very nice. Will definitely save a lot of wasted time on repeated questions in the Computer build thread! |
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| Igard Norway. June 28 2012 05:32. Posts 5 | Profile # |
On June 28 2012 03:37 JingleHell wrote:
Frankly, this one is both over and understated. The odds of shit just going kablooey are much lower than most people make it out to be. Being within a mile of carpet doesn't just instagib your expensive PC. By the same token, a lot of people treat it like something to ignore completely. I personally say, if it's reasonably possible for you, go ahead and follow basic precautions, like avoiding carpet when building. That said, I don't think the majority of users need a wrist strap grounded to a workbench over a glass floor, in a room with full decontamination measures, that they only enter naked.
Use common sense, and don't avoid precautions out of pure laziness, in my opinion.
I usually just touch the faucet in my sink before I stick my head into my computer, as it's grounded and will at least absorb any charge I might've built up before starting even if this won't protect it from charges generated during the work (which in most cases will be negligible). |
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| JingleHell United States. June 28 2012 05:40. Posts 11262 | Profile Blog # |
On June 28 2012 05:32 Igard wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 03:37 JingleHell wrote:
Frankly, this one is both over and understated. The odds of shit just going kablooey are much lower than most people make it out to be. Being within a mile of carpet doesn't just instagib your expensive PC. By the same token, a lot of people treat it like something to ignore completely. I personally say, if it's reasonably possible for you, go ahead and follow basic precautions, like avoiding carpet when building. That said, I don't think the majority of users need a wrist strap grounded to a workbench over a glass floor, in a room with full decontamination measures, that they only enter naked.
Use common sense, and don't avoid precautions out of pure laziness, in my opinion.
I usually just touch the faucet in my sink before I stick my head into my computer, as it's grounded and will at least absorb any charge I might've built up before starting even if this won't protect it from charges generated during the work (which in most cases will be negligible).
I'd rather not stick this one in there. For one, some sinks have cheap plastic faux chrome faucets, which would do a shit job of grounding, and some water contains minerals that I absolutely would NOT want to have on my hands when I stick it anywhere near a PCB.
Edit: Note, I'm not saying you're necesarily doing something bad, I just don't want people to think this is a definite safe option.
I haven't seen your sink, so I'll just hope these aren't issues for you specifically.Last edit: 2012-06-28 05:44:17 |
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| Nabutso June 28 2012 05:51. Posts 351 | Profile # |
Allright here you go;
"You need a lot of thermal paste to keep your CPU cool" not true at all. The paste simply fills the cracks/grooves/nonperfect machine cut of the cpu die and the heatsink. Since the paste conducts heat better than air, it lowers temps. Using to much paste will cause the heat transfer to weaken since the heat moves slower through the paste than it does the metal from the heatsink. This is why an extremely thin layer (created by either the rice-in-the-middle or the spread-with-plastic-bag-and-finger meathod) works, and a thick layer does not. Also, all pastes are basically the same and you'd be wasting money purchasing a 'premium' paste.
"I need water cooling, and I choose you, closed loop water cooling!"
The difference between a closed loop and a self-built water cooling system is like the difference between a prebuilt PC and building your own. You don't know exactly what you're buying (the pumps on closed loops are generally terrible at moving water) or if you really need what you're getting (the guy who walks into staples and needs to buy the i7 PC for his daughter's facebook machine). A decent air cooler that'll cost you $20 can do the job of an expensive closed loop. If you're spending a huge amount on the closed loop, it might be better than cheap air, but you may aswell build your own system for the same price. Unless you're doing some hardcore OCing (I'm saying with voltages that are unsafe in the first place) then you don't need water.
"If I overclock my PC, it's going to burn out!"
CPUs are designed to live for something like 500,000 hours. Overclocking shortens this lifespan, yes, but your CPU will long outlast your uses for it, since in 20 years you won't be using the same system. Overclocking at high voltages sometimes causes what is called 'chip degradation' (infact, this is all I ever see it cause) which means that the chip requires a small amount of extra voltage over time. Think of a car with an old engine, after 300,000 miles you need to put some better gas into it to run the same as it used to. Higher voltages cause quicker degradation, and every chip is unique. Some users have chips at 1.5volts that haven't degraded, and some have chips at 1.35v that have.
Overclocking is free performance and generally safe. In the worst case, you'll be able to go back to stock clocks without having to raise volts above stock. Overclocking is safe, if you don't mind extra stress on your system. But remember, do it wisely. Is 100mhz worth a huge voltage increase?
I'm an amatuer, but this is the sort of info I've gathered in the past year just reading this forum for my own interest and enjoyment. |
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| TheToast United States. June 28 2012 05:54. Posts 4804 | Profile Blog # |
On June 28 2012 05:51 Nabutso wrote:
Allright here you go;
"You need a lot of thermal paste to keep your CPU cool" not true at all. The paste simply fills the cracks/grooves/nonperfect machine cut of the cpu die and the heatsink. Since the paste conducts heat better than air, it lowers temps. Using to much paste will cause the heat transfer to weaken since the heat moves slower through the paste than it does the metal from the heatsink. This is why an extremely thin layer (created by either the rice-in-the-middle or the spread-with-plastic-bag-and-finger meathod) works, and a thick layer does not. Also, all pastes are basically the same and you'd be wasting money purchasing a 'premium' paste.
Actually, there is a difference in the performance of different thermal compounds. I think it was JH who linked the results of some tests done with different products on the market in his cooling thread.
Also, the type of spread that is best to use depends on the CPU model in question. Each has a slightly different heat distribution, even different models from the same manufacturer. Again, check JH's cooling thread for a link to Artic Silver's guide for to the best spread method for each processor. Apparently their product team actually tested every different kind on each model to determine the best.
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| | I like the way the walls go out. Gives you an open feeling. Firefly's a good design. People don't appreciate the substance of things. Objects in space. People miss out on what's solid. | |
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| JingleHell United States. June 28 2012 06:19. Posts 11262 | Profile Blog # |
| Edited for Nabutso's bits, with my own and Toast's responses. |
| | http://jinglehelltech.blogspot.com -- Pics of my rig in Profile |
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| Wabbit United States. June 28 2012 06:20. Posts 1005 | Profile # |
On June 28 2012 05:54 TheToast wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 05:51 Nabutso wrote:
Allright here you go;
"You need a lot of thermal paste to keep your CPU cool" not true at all. The paste simply fills the cracks/grooves/nonperfect machine cut of the cpu die and the heatsink. Since the paste conducts heat better than air, it lowers temps. Using to much paste will cause the heat transfer to weaken since the heat moves slower through the paste than it does the metal from the heatsink. This is why an extremely thin layer (created by either the rice-in-the-middle or the spread-with-plastic-bag-and-finger meathod) works, and a thick layer does not. Also, all pastes are basically the same and you'd be wasting money purchasing a 'premium' paste.
Actually, there is a difference in the performance of different thermal compounds. I think it was JH who linked the results of some tests done with different products on the market in his cooling thread. Also, the type of spread that is best to use depends on the CPU model in question. Each has a slightly different heat distribution, even different models from the same manufacturer. Again, check JH's cooling thread for a link to Artic Silver's guide for to the best spread method for each processor. Apparently their product team actually tested every different kind on each model to determine the best.
Yup, there is a difference - it's just that proper application matters more, unless you have some of the worst paste possible, like the crap Cooler Master used to (still does?) ship with the 212+
This is mostly of concern to people who need to buy a tube of paste (or who want to pay $5-10 for *maybe* a 1-4 Celsius temp drop). If you're going to spend a few $ on paste, might as well get something like Prolimatech PK-1 since it's dirt cheap and one of the best, instead of the institutionalized and worshipped AS5, which is bad and expensive (or just expensive for what it is, depending how you look at it; I would consider it awesome if it was $2 per 4g tube with free shipping)Last edit: 2012-06-28 06:21:33 |
| | [QUOTE][B]On July 29 2011 13:35 R1CH wrote:[/B] 575W PSU for $25? ಠ_ಠ[/QUOTE] |
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 tofucake United States. June 28 2012 06:57. Posts 11409 | Profile Blog # |
| I feel like with recent developments you should stress the importance of keeping the mobo out of contact with the case by means of risers. |
| | kwark > i will mentor you if you wish, but i'm like the absent drunk father you never wanted | |
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| TheToast United States. June 28 2012 06:57. Posts 4804 | Profile Blog # |
On June 28 2012 06:20 Wabbit wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 05:54 TheToast wrote:
On June 28 2012 05:51 Nabutso wrote:
Allright here you go;
"You need a lot of thermal paste to keep your CPU cool" not true at all. The paste simply fills the cracks/grooves/nonperfect machine cut of the cpu die and the heatsink. Since the paste conducts heat better than air, it lowers temps. Using to much paste will cause the heat transfer to weaken since the heat moves slower through the paste than it does the metal from the heatsink. This is why an extremely thin layer (created by either the rice-in-the-middle or the spread-with-plastic-bag-and-finger meathod) works, and a thick layer does not. Also, all pastes are basically the same and you'd be wasting money purchasing a 'premium' paste.
Actually, there is a difference in the performance of different thermal compounds. I think it was JH who linked the results of some tests done with different products on the market in his cooling thread. Also, the type of spread that is best to use depends on the CPU model in question. Each has a slightly different heat distribution, even different models from the same manufacturer. Again, check JH's cooling thread for a link to Artic Silver's guide for to the best spread method for each processor. Apparently their product team actually tested every different kind on each model to determine the best.
Yup, there is a difference - it's just that proper application matters more, unless you have some of the worst paste possible, like the crap Cooler Master used to (still does?) ship with the 212+ This is mostly of concern to people who need to buy a tube of paste (or who want to pay $5-10 for *maybe* a 1-4 Celsius temp drop). If you're going to spend a few $ on paste, might as well get something like Prolimatech PK-1 since it's dirt cheap and one of the best, instead of the institutionalized and worshipped AS5, which is bad and expensive (or just expensive for what it is, depending how you look at it; I would consider it awesome if it was $2 per 4g tube with free shipping)
Agreed^ I love that this thread is now actively busting things that people think are myths but aren't lol.
Also need to mention that stupid myth about reapplying thermal compound once per year. I don't know who started that, but it's completely stupid. For starters, if you get some quality thermal compound, the stuff will last for years; possibly the entire life of the PC. Replacing it regularly is actually going to make your temps worse as virtually all the products on the market have a "break in period" during which the compound changes it's molecular composition as it heats and becomes more effective. For some products, their rated for something like 50+ hours of PC operation across multiple power cycles.
How much of an effect on temps this actually has is a bit debatably, part of the problem is each CPU can have the temperature diode in different parts of the processor so it's hard to compare exactly, Yyou're obviously not going to drop 10 degrees, but there is a real change in temps--at least a degree or two. So regularly changing out the thermal compound can have the opposite effect that it's claimed to.
Not sure where this silly notion started, but it's flat wrong...
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| | I like the way the walls go out. Gives you an open feeling. Firefly's a good design. People don't appreciate the substance of things. Objects in space. People miss out on what's solid. | |
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| JingleHell United States. June 28 2012 07:01. Posts 11262 | Profile Blog # |
On June 28 2012 06:57 tofucake wrote:
I feel like with recent developments you should stress the importance of keeping the mobo out of contact with the case by means of risers.
"Recent developments". Heh. Such tact. I thought it best if I just stuck with facepalming in that blog. Not sure it qualifies as a misconception or myth, though. |
| | http://jinglehelltech.blogspot.com -- Pics of my rig in Profile |
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