Hey guys, new poster here. I'm high plat, looking to improve and need some feedback from high plat+ players on my PvT strategy. As a player I'm highly aggressive and don't like to go into late game so my strategy is aimed at allin total decimation. Think of it as a blitzkreig vs the ever popular MMM (bio-based) builds.
Here are 2 replays. I will add more as I play the games. I will also include games I've lost (there are no losses just yet).
The build is essentially a 4 gate with a few major exceptions. 1) I build zealots. Lots of them (I aim for 14-16 by time I push) 2) I get charge researched 3) I get 3 Archons
It also relies on a bit of deception, to that end I deny my opponent's scouting while what information he does collect suggests I'm expanding. Excuse the 10 pylon, I know I'm supposed to be doing 9. Its a bad habbit, I'm breaking it. Other things I did wrong was make 6 gates on 1 base (I can only support 5) and should I choose I could expand behind it.
Pros:
Suprise AoE Fast Hard counters my opponent's bio-build Can transfer into other builds based on information collected through scouting before comitting to archons.
Cons:
allin more or less 1-A bar selective targeting somewhat weak to timing attacks before charge is researched relies on my opponent to do the typical MMM/1 rax expand
Please, I'm not perfect, don't be too critical. Just evaluate the build on its function, effectiveness, point out where I can improve it and whatnot.
Thanks in advance.
FALCON PUNCH
retardstrong United States. June 29 2012 16:31. Posts 46
Hey I just watched your first replay and like the archon zealot style.
Some weaknesses I can see in it:
-No detection and attack hits after common banshee styles.
-Only Zealots for defense for a long time. Gas might need to be spent on sentries if the terran is doing heavy pressure.
-The placement of the buildings on the low ground to try and trick the terran into thinking you're expand is a good idea, but it could also lead to earlier pressure than you want. So try and place the buildings in a little more thought out simcity so if pressure does come and you need to warp in sentries you can hold them off for a while.
-Cyber core was the closest available building to be shot and the core/gateway were on an artosis (1) pylon for a long time.
I really like the idea but I believe with average mechanics you can pull off a better army going 1gate expo or nexus first depending on the map.
Sorry if i'm being harsh i could be wrong about my last statement so I'm going to go try it out and upload a replay of the build if it helps.
"Pussies don't like dicks, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes: assholes that just want to shit on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can fuck an asshole is a dick."
retardstrong United States. June 29 2012 16:43. Posts 46
Pretty lazy/drunk i just did 1 gate expo that maybe hit slightly later but it was safer from early pressure, had a way to scout what was going on, and had more archons. Could probably be able to do a really strong 8-9-10 gate 2 base type push with this hitting not much later.
Gonna give it another go before I upload a replay.
Last edit: 2012-06-29 16:44:02
"Pussies don't like dicks, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes: assholes that just want to shit on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can fuck an asshole is a dick."
On June 29 2012 16:31 retardstrong wrote: Hey I just watched your first replay and like the archon zealot style.
Some weaknesses I can see in it:
-No detection and attack hits after common banshee styles.
-Only Zealots for defense for a long time. Gas might need to be spent on sentries if the terran is doing heavy pressure.
-The placement of the buildings on the low ground to try and trick the terran into thinking you're expand is a good idea, but it could also lead to earlier pressure than you want. So try and place the buildings in a little more thought out simcity so if pressure does come and you need to warp in sentries you can hold them off for a while.
-Cyber core was the closest available building to be shot and the core/gateway were on an artosis (1) pylon for a long time.
I really like the idea but I believe with average mechanics you can pull off a better army going 1gate expo or nexus first depending on the map.
Sorry if i'm being harsh i could be wrong about my last statement so I'm going to go try it out and upload a replay of the build if it helps.
Don't worry about being harsh, I'm not that fragile, lol. Thanks though. I'm gonna work on fixing those. Thank you. I'll post more replays later as a update on my progress.
On June 29 2012 16:43 retardstrong wrote: Pretty lazy/drunk i just did 1 gate expo that maybe hit slightly later but it was safer from early pressure, had a way to scout what was going on, and had more archons. Could probably be able to do a really strong 8-9-10 gate 2 base type push with this hitting not much later.
Gonna give it another go before I upload a replay.
I'd love to see that replay. If this build can be even more devastating then I'd do it. P.S. Love the sig, xD
Last edit: 2012-06-29 16:55:52
FALCON PUNCH
retardstrong United States. June 29 2012 17:04. Posts 46
-Based on map you could do nexus first -I'm drunk and in diamond league but hopefully it helps -Pylon scout to check for something really crazy and to harass with probe -The two stalkers and zealot before nexus are for scouting also. Use them to poke at the ramp. This is the most units i make to scout here so you can cut out whatever ones you feel is safe to get that nexus down faster. -It isn't quite as all in you're on 2 base! -Might hit slightly later? I dunno what kind of army comp u want but give it a shot
Edit: sorry it's also against very easy AI just to show build. Edit2: No idea if this is what you were looking for but maybe it will help.. Edit3: the 2 stalker zealot scout is important i can tell you what common builds are based on what you see at the ramp. Also this is basically just 1 gate fe opening so look into a guide for that that is more proper I just tried to do your army build Edit4: HelmsDeep#530 NA
Last edit: 2012-06-29 17:12:22
"Pussies don't like dicks, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes: assholes that just want to shit on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can fuck an asshole is a dick."
Alright I'll check the replay out tomorrow. 1 gate FE could work for the build. I'm hoping to attack at the 11 min mark. Any later bugs me vs terran. I don't want critical mass of MMM hitting the field.
Army comp I'm generally looking for is chargelot Archon, if I can field additional support I will, also would vary according to the build and could possibly turn into a 2 pronged attack using a warp prism.
There's a few tricks I can think of.
FALCON PUNCH
retardstrong United States. June 29 2012 17:36. Posts 46
"Pussies don't like dicks, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes: assholes that just want to shit on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can fuck an asshole is a dick."
naggerNZ New Zealand. June 29 2012 17:49. Posts 700
Terrible, terrible build. It might work against Platinum terrans with no macro or understanding of the game but that's about it. Basically any 1base all-in, cloaked banshee or aggressive 2base pressure build would outright kill you, and if the terran just builds a few bunkers at their ramp and repairs you'll never ever break through. Also you were floating like 1.5k when your attack hits so there is absolutely no reason why you couldnt have build a nexus early in this build and still had the attack hit just as hard.
If you ever want to be Diamond or higher, never do this build again.
CCalms United States. June 29 2012 18:49. Posts 341
I would use this all-in if I really really wanted to lose. Terran will lift their expansion and get behind a wall on 1 base then kill you with 10 min medivac timing every single time.
If you want to all-in because you don't like lategame (read: not a good player) then learn to do a void ray all-in.
The terran does a really bad build, like really bad.
He is 20scv's down on where he should be, when you attack at the 10min mark.
This is huge, he should also have about another 10-15 supply of army because of this and also 2 -4 medivacs.
This is the first replay i watched haven't watched the second yet.
He could also be taking a 3rd if he had done the build well. He hasn't done any of these things, so i really wouldnt be basing how good your build is off this replay.
Both opponents you had played just terrible. Apart from having bad macro they just made bad decisions. First one even had a wall at his nat but chooses to fight a chargelot army in the open. Huh? Second one also scouts your chargelots and builds only one bunker which he doesn't even use.
Any halfway decent terran could hold this off a 1rax-expand. Put down 3 bunkers, have some scvs on autorepair, fend off attack, counter, gg.
Also this build pretty much won't work against the standard terran open, 1raxFe into 3rax into starport.
The timing of your push at around 10 mins is also when if he has done it correctly have about 95plus supply and 40plus scv's.
And depending on the little tweaks he could have stim/cs or +1 attack and stim.
He probably won't even need to autorepair the bunkers and be able to hold this attack.
It might be more effective at around the 8min mark, but definitely anything past 10mins and he will either have medivac's or they are popping.
And anything later than this and his supply will just be so far beyond yours off of 2 base, that he can just throw down more rax and the counter swing will be pretty hard to hold your side.
Just watched both replays, neither of these guys does the build at all well, and are both severely behind on scv's and units, plus don't do anything to try and defend.
If you can show replays with this build against a T that has got near 100 supply, and you beat him, on this push then i would like to see it.
Fair enough on some of these points. However Archon AoE>SCVs repairing bunkers.
I have a bit of work to do before I go on testing this further because my opponents played a bad game.
The idea is a early-mid game push with Archons for the AoE and the chargelots to stop stim stutter step from being overly effective.
I'll post more replays later today, however most of you haven't provided me with the details that I asked for. Please, if you're going to reply, provide details that would help. If you cannot then you shouldn't be posting here. Thank you in advance.
On June 29 2012 15:52 Babel Fish wrote: Just evaluate the build on its function, effectiveness, point out where I can improve it and whatnot.
Thanks in advance.
OK, so the build itself i did not evaluate because the opponents you faced played like they were learning a build in bronze league, and as such i was giving you analysis as to what you WOULD face, so that when you do this build you could see where you are in terms of timing/how many units the Terran would have, what units, how many medivacs his upgrades etc.
In terms of Chargelot/Archon V bio i agree it is ok but, i dont understand why you don't just keep the high templar with storm? Surely that would be more effective here versus bio?
So if you want to see a 1raxFE into (what is generally accepted as the std) a 3rax with medivacs, then FilterStarcraft does a massive you tube vod on it.
he does the 1rax Fe, and then states how much stuff he has at the 10min mark which is the crucial timing that you were lookin at attacking, hope this helps.
I don't understand how people can be so stupid as to complain about bad execution from a platinum game, that's the whole point of it being a plat game!
The whole idea of starting out with nexus first might be a good idea. But attacking with chargelot archon gets very time dependant since most maps have chokes to the naturals and zealots need surface area. Meaning that a significantly more units might not be worthwhile even with minor delays in timing. The only reasonable thing would be to try it out in plat and see how it does.
On June 29 2012 17:49 naggerNZ wrote: If you ever want to be Diamond or higher, never do this build again.
Almost laughed when I read this, either you've never been in dia or you've been there some time. I've won with proxy robo 4 stalker warp prism rush into colossus rush in dia PvT, first time trying and improvised. I'm sure something that actually sounds sane will do just fine.
- A diamond Protoss
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
The execution is bad for silver level by the opponents in this replay, if you haven't watched the replay then you shoudln't be commentating, or alternatively read the stickies.
On June 29 2012 15:52 Babel Fish wrote: Just evaluate the build on its function, effectiveness, point out where I can improve it and whatnot.
Thanks in advance.
OK, so the build itself i did not evaluate because the opponents you faced played like they were learning a build in bronze league, and as such i was giving you analysis as to what you WOULD face, so that when you do this build you could see where you are in terms of timing/how many units the Terran would have, what units, how many medivacs his upgrades etc.
In terms of Chargelot/Archon V bio i agree it is ok but, i dont understand why you don't just keep the high templar with storm? Surely that would be more effective here versus bio?
So if you want to see a 1raxFE into (what is generally accepted as the std) a 3rax with medivacs, then FilterStarcraft does a massive you tube vod on it.
he does the 1rax Fe, and then states how much stuff he has at the 10min mark which is the crucial timing that you were lookin at attacking, hope this helps.
Judging by that video my strategy could devastate terran with a 10-11 min push. Like Terran though I need to figure out a time to expand and increase my pop to 100-150. The Archons are seeming like a really, really good idea based on what that video showed but my execution is sloppy, I need to tighten it up by stepping up macro to a 2 base.
That helped out quite a bit, thank you for the proper reference point.
THAT'S in no way silver or maybe i'm just off on my league estimations. None the less, glad you got some ideas. You may wanna try storm as someone suggested, if only because it's quite alot of fun and not "more or less 1-A", it may provide more satisfaction as you crush down on your opponent. Happy hunting.
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
Alright so I hammered out a 2 base version, its in the rough and I've only tried it vs very hard A.I.
But it goes like this 9 pylon 13 gate 13 assimilator 18 nexus 18 cybernetics core (its 3:08 at this time)
and from there I kind of wing it with these rules 1) don't float above 400 minerals unless its for a warpgate reinforcement wave 2) 4 gates per base 3) gas asap once the second base finishes 4) charge/warpgate asap
by the 11 minute mark when I was pushing out I had defended a MM push and headed out with 24 chargelots and 8 archons. My population was at 124. That was just in the rough as well, I did not do a few important sub-steps like robo+obs So it does need some tweaking and obviously some refinement.
This build scares me with how it has potential to evolve into something much more devastating.
On June 30 2012 06:24 Sheogorath wrote: THAT'S in no way silver or maybe i'm just off on my league estimations. None the less, glad you got some ideas. You may wanna try storm as someone suggested, if only because it's quite alot of fun and not "more or less 1-A", it may provide more satisfaction as you crush down on your opponent. Happy hunting.
I do like storm but (imo) Archons instill fear in my opponent, storm just means stim and temporarily retreat. When my opponent engages a decent number of Archons directly the splash+bonus damage to bio just shreds them, making it a positioning battle for terran instead of a positioning battle for toss.
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