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| trbot Canada. June 30 2012 21:00. Posts 142 | Profile # |
I did something similar in PvP for a while (dt->archon rush with chargelots) and it has a lot of advantages. The real problem is when you can't deliver the death blow because your opponent has good positioning (narrow choke, landing a factory and repairing bunkers) you're extremely behind. (Imagine being forced to attack up a ramp, where you get 1 archon and 1 zealot attacking at a time...)
Eventually you'll hit a wall where terrans will start completely shutting you down with good positioning and building usage. At that point you're going to have to completely abandon this build. I don't think it's remotely viable in diamond. (I'm a mid-diamond toss, and I -highly- doubt you'd be able to manage 50-50, even with a refined version of this.) Imo, it's too easy for terran to abuse cliffs and buildings to keep you at range... |
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| Babel Fish July 01 2012 04:15. Posts 15 | Profile # |
Yeah recently I ran into a problem of attacking and the terran player had 3 bunkers with a solid wall of depots infront.
I'm not convinced it was a good idea for him to do because normally that would mean a ton of supply gone.
Up a ramp you can have 4-5 zealots attacking with 2 archons in the back attacking.
I've also been finding that attacking at 9 minutes with 14 chargelots and 2 archons is much more effective then going 2 base and attacking at 11 mins with 20 chargelots and 3 archons. |
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| naggerNZ New Zealand. July 03 2012 18:30. Posts 701 | Profile # |
On July 01 2012 04:15 Babel Fish wrote:
I've also been finding that attacking at 9 minutes with 14 chargelots and 2 archons is much more effective then going 2 base and attacking at 11 mins with 20 chargelots and 3 archons.
That's because neither are a good idea, but at least the first one is so random that your opponents don't know how to respond (given that they're in platinum and don't know how to scout). |
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| tar Germany. July 04 2012 08:06. Posts 140 | Profile # |
alrighty, I'd like to see some replays in which u perform ur 2 base version.
Till then, however, I may provide some useful advice based on what I learned from ur first 2 replays:
Do not try to "fake" a Terran into believing u expanded by putting down plyon/gate (or even the cybercore) on the low ground, coz it just invites them to do a push to punish ur "expand" which may very well kill everything u have on the lowground and potentially the highground as well, at least however, throw u completely off.
Which brings me to the second point:
When u have no scouting what ur opponent is doing early on, your build needs at least able to defend against 2rax play and banshee play, both of which ur current build is lacking (2rax: only 4 to 6 zealtos ,no tech about to kick in. late WG // banshee: no detection, nothing that shoots up).
So I'd reccomend to get some scouting done, so u can determine if u need to be save against pushes before 10 min and/or if u need detection - 9 scout might not be necessary but should in most cases give u a scout on their gas. ur build-idea seems to be most useful against gasless FE. vs gas openers u might face a lot of trouble getting enough intel to see if u r save or not.
Concerning the 2 base variant u seem to be working on: bench ur build against this one:
KCDC's PvT (fast 2 base charge/storm)
His build is save against 2 rax (against 2rax with slow u might have to pull some probes but u'll be still ahead) and on maps with a secondary ramp or choke to the natural 5 rax marine pressure after FE can be deflected easily as well. As this build will not give u detection before 12/13 min u should only do it when u can rule out 1 base banshee play.
edit: I just want to add that u shouldn t get discouraged by the super negative feedback u'll get on the forum when posting ur own builds. unless u r top masters u will get torn apart anyways.
Work on the flaws of ur build and see if u can make it work and how long (i.e. until which skill level) it keeps working. Working on a unique playstyle is at least a lot of fun even though the builds might only work for so long or even turn out to not work at all - sc2 should still be about having fun for most of us non progamers...
Last edit: 2012-07-04 08:10:57 |
| | whoever I pick for my anti team turns gosu |
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| Emporium England. July 04 2012 08:27. Posts 143 | Profile # |
ok, so i just looked at my 1raxgasless expo.
I'm only silver league, and i have 20 marines/2 bunkers and a supply of 70 at a very conservative 8mins 30.
If i go to the 9min mark i have 27marines, with stim half done.
i just ran 27marines versus 2 archons and 14chargelots through a training map, and if i dont micro, i have 5marines left, if i do i have between 8 and 11. depending on the space i have. either way, the attack fails, i don't even need to pull marines, and that is them not in the bunkers which 8 marines would be.
Also FWIW, im not hating on this build, i think that this build could be effective, but honestly i think that if you had played anyone half decent, (i cannot seriously believe that those 2 replays were plat,) then you wouldn't try this in its current format.
If you play EU, then i will play v you, and show you what i mean.
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| tar Germany. July 04 2012 08:29. Posts 140 | Profile # |
On July 03 2012 18:30 naggerNZ wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 04:15 Babel Fish wrote:
I've also been finding that attacking at 9 minutes with 14 chargelots and 2 archons is much more effective then going 2 base and attacking at 11 mins with 20 chargelots and 3 archons.
That'S because neither are a good idea, but at least the First ONE is so random that your opponents don't know how to respond (given that they're in platinum and don't know how to scout).
chargelot/ ArchOn busts are perfectly viable at that time on maps with open naturals. Seen  MC do it quite some times and Genius crushed  mvp in the Ro32 with a chargelot/storm bust just aftr the 12 Min mark with 12 zealots 4 sentries and some 6 HTs.
edit: oviously the above is 2 base play with upgrades, still the idea is valid
edit2 :corrected TLPDize from BW to sc2Last edit: 2012-07-04 16:29:42 |
| | whoever I pick for my anti team turns gosu |
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| D u o Canada. July 04 2012 08:31. Posts 245 | Profile # |
| If they fight in chokes you lose. if they create brax walls or depot walls you will lose, zealots need a lot of surface area to actually be good against so if they create walls or fight you in chokes your dps is drastically reduced, its the same idea in pvp where its a good viable strategy but if they just wall with pylons and use their stalkers to kill your archon you die. Terran are even stronger because they can hold and do a drop depending on their opening. |
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| RyLai United States. July 05 2012 01:42. Posts 293 | Profile # |
On June 29 2012 15:52 Babel Fish wrote:Hey guys, new poster here. I'm high plat, looking to improve and need some feedback from high plat+ players on my PvT strategy. As a player I'm highly aggressive and don't like to go into late game so my strategy is aimed at allin total decimation. Think of it as a blitzkreig vs the ever popular MMM (bio-based) builds. Here are 2 replays. I will add more as I play the games. I will also include games I've lost (there are no losses just yet). http://drop.sc/209728http://drop.sc/209741The build is essentially a 4 gate with a few major exceptions. 1) I build zealots. Lots of them (I aim for 14-16 by time I push) 2) I get charge researched 3) I get 3 Archons It also relies on a bit of deception, to that end I deny my opponent's scouting while what information he does collect suggests I'm expanding. Excuse the 10 pylon, I know I'm supposed to be doing 9. Its a bad habbit, I'm breaking it. Other things I did wrong was make 6 gates on 1 base (I can only support 5) and should I choose I could expand behind it. Pros: Suprise AoE Fast Hard counters my opponent's bio-build Can transfer into other builds based on information collected through scouting before comitting to archons. Cons: allin more or less 1-A bar selective targeting somewhat weak to timing attacks before charge is researched relies on my opponent to do the typical MMM/1 rax expand Please, I'm not perfect, don't be too critical. Just evaluate the build on its function, effectiveness, point out where I can improve it and whatnot. Thanks in advance.
I can't imagine that ever going well. Like someone else said, doing this as a 2 base timing might be significantly safer, more deceptive, and a damn bit more powerful.
A 1 Rax expand WILL hold against the 1 base version of this. All the Terran has to do is scout and react appropriately. They WILL have at least 1 Bunker or else they would die to Zealot/Stalker pressure. If they smell a 1 base all in, they will put up more Bunkers.
Funny thing is, a 1 Rax pressure expo stomps that build. 1/1/1 will kill you by the Banshee alone. 2 Rax will kill you. A power rax build will likely kill you as well.
Contrary to what you think, it does NOT "hard counter" Terran bio builds. Both the games you won, you won due to MASSIVE mistakes. On the Shakuras game, the guy NEVER scouted that you were doing a 1 base build. Not only that, he went for a greedy 2 Rax into Starport build. In addition, he tried to fight out with his greedy build instead of defending. He should've pulled some SCVs, dropped another Bunker, held his ramp, dropped another CC or his choice of tech, and just won in 5 minutes off his huge lead that he threw away. You have no expansion while he has a perfect wall to block your all in as well as a significantly better economy (with MULEs as well).
In the second game, He loses an army without denting your army, scouted no expansion, and thought "hmmm... I should drop 1 Bunker, never fill it, and pretend he's not planning to do an obvious all in since he didn't drop a Nexus 8 minutes into the game. I TOTALLY shouldn't turtle off my economic advantage and do EVERYTHING in my power to stay alive so I can steamroll him in about 5 minutes when my upgrades and Medivacs kick in."
Both of your enemies derped hard. If I see that coming at me, I defend, hold without taking any losses, then proceed to drop you and expand all over the map as I decide, "what the hell, I can probably win with Battlecruisers because I'm so stupidly far ahead". Off 1 base, your timing hits way too slowly and without any real punch to be viable at higher levels of the game where people know what they're doing and can actually assess the situation. To be considered a scary push, you need to have double the army that you can produce with that build at 10 minutes and not lose 50% of your DPS from your opponent hiding behind a basic wall, which means Stalkers, Immortals, Void Rays, or Colossi need to be used (hell, even Carriers).
If you rush the tech, then you can get it out by 8 minutes, but you have NOTHING protecting you (and it's nothing short of obvious). If you wait, you get a semi-decent army at 9 minutes. Sad to say, things don't get much better 10 minutes in. 1 Rax expand can easily defend a 4 Gate and 5 Gates on most maps. So why use a build that's weaker than a 4 Gate?
If anything, this should be used as a defensive 2 base build (which is what it IS used as). Chargelots and Archons can't break defensive locations, but they do great fighting in the open outside of your natural.
Although the Warp Gate mechanic entices Protoss players to be cheesy and go for all ins, it's better for Protoss players instead to go for long games and focus on macro. Terran units are cost efficient, making them great early game (especially with Bunkers), which makes Protoss pulling all ins on them tough without them being dumb, caught COMPLETELY with their pants down, or there was an inherent imbalance in the map that makes the all in near undefendable (like 5 Gate on Tal'Darim or Blink Stalkers on Xel'Naga Fortress?). Protoss units are supply efficient, meaning if you can get to that 200/200 deathball, you are significantly stronger than any other 200/200 army when controlled well. I mean, you can play any race how you like, but I feel like Protoss players should be aiming for 3-4 base economy with that scary Tier 3 army, similar to Zerg. |
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| RyLai United States. July 05 2012 02:11. Posts 293 | Profile # |
On July 01 2012 04:15 Babel Fish wrote:
Yeah recently I ran into a problem of attacking and the terran player had 3 bunkers with a solid wall of depots infront.
I'm not convinced it was a good idea for him to do because normally that would mean a ton of supply gone.
Up a ramp you can have 4-5 zealots attacking with 2 archons in the back attacking.
I've also been finding that attacking at 9 minutes with 14 chargelots and 2 archons is much more effective then going 2 base and attacking at 11 mins with 20 chargelots and 3 archons.
Assuming you did your 1 base version, how is what he did NOT in any way good? Maybe because he could've cheaped out and gotten only 1 Bunker instead of 3? That maybe he could've skipped Bunkers altogether? Maybe he could've, but he doesn't lose a lot from doing it and it means he's 100% safe to everything you could do to him. It doesn't mean a ton of supply gone. It means he can't expand for another 2 minutes and might have to cut a round or two of SCVs if he has a REALLY tight build, which doesn't even matter because you're on 1 base. He can stop making SCVs altogether and still be miles ahead of you. The fact that he spends an extra 200 minerals on Bunkers he can salvage means nothing. That's 4 supply if he spent it on bio units. A Terran HAS to put down 1 Bunker at his natural or else he dies to retarded Zealot/Stalker pressure. And the fact that if he survives your attack, he almost automatically wins the game just makes the extra 200 mineral investment seem like the best 200 minerals he could possibly spend. There are only 3 possible outcomes in a 2 base vs 1 base scenario: 1) he dies, 2) he holds but took enough damage to allow you to expand and be even, or 3) he holds without you doing enough damage and is miles ahead of you and can basically autopilot his way to victory regardless of what you do unless you're BoxeR or some shit and do some MAJOR outplaying. |
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