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| mahO France. July 01 2012 15:52. Posts 268 | Profile # |
On July 01 2012 01:57 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 15:52 tdt wrote:
Discusting how OP and other posters can trivializee wiping out half a population. Only thing comparable historically is like Ghangis khan wiping out Persians. Doesnt matter how stupid you think it is Never again w/o taking world with them.
I suggest you start reading history, the shoah or holocaust is not the most massive murder during WW2, it's the biggest murder of civilian maybe, and it's the most symbolic because Hitler and the nazis designed the jews as the "ennemies".
No it's not the biggest murder of civilian, dont state bullshit facts when we're talking millions of lives, and especially not when you start your post with "I suggest you start reading history", idiot...
Chinese civilian casualties during World War 2 : 7,000,000 to 16,000,000 (Wikipedia).
Soviet : 12,700,000 to 14,600,000
We never talk about it, but China got massacred for the same reason than jewish people : japanese considered them as "less human" or whatever fucked up ideology those bastards could have at this time. And you know whats funny? In my history class in highschool, we must have spent 20 minutes talking about China's situation during WW2, but yet, we're still talking about the holocaust every week in newspaper. And by the way, if you try to bring up the fact that the way jewish were executed and treated during WW2 was more "horrible", it's not even the case, I suggest you read a little about the Japanese army during WW2. Same for Soviet Union, there is no comparison between suffering, and between millions of lives stolen. Thats for sure, but why do we keep ignoring some to the profit of others? Last edit: 2012-07-01 15:53:45 |
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| phosphorylation July 01 2012 16:05. Posts 2651 | Profile Blog # |
| Holocaust gets an unfair amount of attention compared to other genocidal episodes -- don't get me started on why this might be so -- but I don't see anything wrong with this particular event. |
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| stormtemplar United States. July 01 2012 16:19. Posts 1915 | Profile Blog # |
| While we're on the subject of unmentioned ww2 genocide, don't forget the crap the poles got at the hands of stalin. He was almost if not just as bad as Hitler himself. |
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| Oroboros Germany. July 01 2012 16:59. Posts 37 | Profile # |
On June 30 2012 01:48 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
I honestly thougt It was a joke and I didnt realise u're actually being serious until 30% into the post....
I dont know what to say really, the fact that Israel is a part of it is so hypocritical, the state of Israel is so quick on playing the victim card due to the persecution of jews during ww2, now they are doing a beautycontest for the survivors? who would even want to participate??? and meanwhile this joke is going on they are trying to exterminate the palestinian people.
the whole thing is making me sick.
the amount of antisemitism in this thread is disgusting. jews are trying to kill the palestines, really? ever read the hamas charter? or heard about the rockets that are going down on israel on a daily basis almost? do you even know that the palestine population is growing? do you even care about any of those facts or does it just feel good for you to spew your antisemitism around in an online forum?
and why does everyone and their mother feel the need to downplay the shoah by comparing death numbers to other genocides? i cant eat the amount i want to vomit when i read this:
Holocaust gets an unfair amount of attention compared to other genocidal episodes -- don't get me started on why this might be so -- but I don't see anything wrong with this particular event.
While we're on the subject of unmentioned ww2 genocide, don't forget the crap the poles got at the hands of stalin. He was almost if not just as bad as Hitler himself.
if any western politician (im not talking about your idols from damascus and teheran) would say this, he would be out of the game and for a good reason.
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| Mayhemia- Finland. July 01 2012 17:00. Posts 33 | Profile # |
On June 29 2012 23:37 C[h]ili wrote:
These woman have survived Holocaust, its their history and their decision what to do with it, not ours.
Really can't see what gives anyone the right to judge it.
No, you don't turn freaking genocides into money. Anyone who tries, should be cast in doubt if they really even were there, or if it's just a fraud.
I'm getting tired to hearing about Holocaust, Hitler and a ton of more all day long in every single mass media outlet. Israeli's seem to be content mocking Holocaust albeit in very surreal fashion. I think Holocaust is soon starting to run out of steam.
Mostly probably because Survivors and "survivors" (There are a lot of frauds in the business as well) have been milking it dry. And, this kinda shows the whole absurdity of the "industry". No other Genocide has been industrialized so well.
Then again, saying this is probably anti-semitic. Ah well, gotta start from scratch again. |
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| Oroboros Germany. July 01 2012 17:06. Posts 37 | Profile # |
On July 01 2012 17:00 Mayhemia- wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 23:37 C[h]ili wrote:
These woman have survived Holocaust, its their history and their decision what to do with it, not ours.
Really can't see what gives anyone the right to judge it.
No, you don't turn freaking genocides into money. Anyone who tries, should be cast in doubt if they really even were there, or if it's just a fraud. I'm getting tired to hearing about Holocaust, Hitler and a ton of more all day long in every single mass media outlet. Israeli's seem to be content mocking Holocaust albeit in very surreal fashion. I think Holocaust is soon starting to run out of steam. Mostly probably because Survivors and "survivors" (There are a lot of frauds in the business as well) have been milking it dry. And, this kinda shows the whole absurdity of the "industry". No other Genocide has been industrialized so well. Then again, saying this is probably anti-semitic. Ah well, gotta start from scratch again.
its not probably anti-semitic. your statements are the very definition of antisemitism.
how could Claude Lanzmann make money out of the shoah? |
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| yandere991 Australia. July 01 2012 17:12. Posts 327 | Profile # |
| So when other people say "Hey! What about the other genocides in WW2 why aren't anyone mentioning them?" you start labeling them anti-Semitic. I can use the same logic back at you and call you Sinophobic and Russophobic for attacking people with legitimate complaints why their atrocities and suffering are overshadowed in history. Last edit: 2012-07-01 17:13:05 |
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| WhiteDog France. July 01 2012 17:17. Posts 3474 | Profile Blog # |
On July 01 2012 15:52 mahO wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 01:57 WhiteDog wrote:
On June 30 2012 15:52 tdt wrote:
Discusting how OP and other posters can trivializee wiping out half a population. Only thing comparable historically is like Ghangis khan wiping out Persians. Doesnt matter how stupid you think it is Never again w/o taking world with them.
I suggest you start reading history, the shoah or holocaust is not the most massive murder during WW2, it's the biggest murder of civilian maybe, and it's the most symbolic because Hitler and the nazis designed the jews as the "ennemies".
No it's not the biggest murder of civilian, dont state bullshit facts when we're talking millions of lives, and especially not when you start your post with "I suggest you start reading history", idiot... Chinese civilian casualties during World War 2 : 7,000,000 to 16,000,000 (Wikipedia). Soviet : 12,700,000 to 14,600,000 We never talk about it, but China got massacred for the same reason than jewish people : japanese considered them as "less human" or whatever fucked up ideology those bastards could have at this time. And you know whats funny? In my history class in highschool, we must have spent 20 minutes talking about China's situation during WW2, but yet, we're still talking about the holocaust every week in newspaper. And by the way, if you try to bring up the fact that the way jewish were executed and treated during WW2 was more "horrible", it's not even the case, I suggest you read a little about the Japanese army during WW2. Same for Soviet Union, there is no comparison between suffering, and between millions of lives stolen. Thats for sure, but why do we keep ignoring some to the profit of others?
Calm yourself little midget, I think you didn't read my post well. I said maybe (I even put it in italic for midget like you to understand) because I didn't had numbers. I was only answering to the guy saying it was the bigger massacre only historically comparable to "Ghangis Khan wiping out persians". My point was exactly the same you are making now, except I didn't had numbers and didn't want to search for them.
Thanks to you for giving me numbers by the way.Last edit: 2012-07-01 17:18:09 |
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| FallDownMarigold United States. July 01 2012 17:22. Posts 3196 | Profile Blog # |
On June 29 2012 23:56 Bleak wrote:
Well, seeing how much attention Srebrenica and Rwanda gets compared to Holocaust kinda shows the importance of the Holocaust business this article seems to talk about, despite the fact that the former two happened very very recently. This is just disgusting imo.
Yes, I think recent genocides deserve a lot of attention. It's important that we acknowledge heinous crimes against entire ethnicities - even if the perpetrators deny it - in order to right the past. Don't you agree?
Strange article, imo. Last edit: 2012-07-01 17:23:41 |
| | "You are the thesis of why we can't have responsible gun control in america." lol |
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| Mayhemia- Finland. July 01 2012 17:27. Posts 33 | Profile # |
the amount of antisemitism in this thread is disgusting. jews are trying to kill the palestines, really? ever read the hamas charter? or heard about the rockets that are going down on israel on a daily basis almost? do you even know that the palestine population is growing? do you even care about any of those facts or does it just feel good for you to spew your antisemitism around in an online forum?
Well, it seems that antisemitism is merely criticizing anything Israel does. When do people understand that you do not need to be racist anti-semite freak if you do voice your opinion against someone who is different.
Israel and Palestine are pretty much in war, there are religious fanatics on both sides and the whole lot is such a mess that only relocating one people or destroying the other will end the fighting. You may defend Israelis all you want, but the fact is that both sides have been aggressors since the times Israel was founded.
"In 1947, the British government announced it would withdraw from Mandatory Palestine, stating it was unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both Arabs and Jews."
British left both peoples to fend for themselves. Both of them having a claim to the land, which was earlier British territory. Jerusalem being very important city in three religions does not help at all. Israel is very disturbing state at the moment in my opinion. Christian population in Israel is openly spit on, harassed and belittled by Jewish population.
and why does everyone and their mother feel the need to downplay the shoah by comparing death numbers to other genocides? i cant eat the amount i want to vomit when i read this:
Because there have been genocides and there will be genocides all around the world. For first, Holocaust term, is downplaying ALL OTHER GENOCIDES. Because, for some reason one is placed over every other terrible moment in the history. Communists, African civil wars, Japanese occupation of far-east.
Japanese killed estimated 7 to 16 mil. Chinese, 400k-500k koreans and variety of other nationalities. They tortured, raped and killed civilians for fun, for sport and for destruction of lower species. See Rape of Nanking.
Now, tell me WHY THE HELL Jews will get silk glove treatment. When there have been so many horrors. Holocaust, Stalin, Japs, Africans fighting themselves (genocides, ethnic purges). Either we should talk about them all, or none.
if any western politician (im not talking about your idols from damascus and teheran) would say this, he would be out of the game and for a good reason.
Actually, no. Polish and Baltic states have a lot of politicians who have said such things. 3rd Reich copied various parts of Soviet gulags, because Nazi officials were impressed how efficiently Soviets were able to kill whole populations through forced labor camps.
Whilst Nazis generally were able to create even more efficient camps, I still stand my point. These regimes were as evil and horrible from normal human perspective, and their deeds should be judged accordingly. Holocaust does not deserve to be the only Genocide. |
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| Mayhemia- Finland. July 01 2012 17:36. Posts 33 | Profile # |
On July 01 2012 17:06 Oroboros wrote:
its not probably anti-semitic. your statements are the very definition of antisemitism.
how could Claude Lanzmann make money out of the shoah?
Right, "Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is suspicion of, hatred toward, or discrimination against Jews for reasons connected to their Jewish heritage."
There is nothing about criticizing them. However, if mentioning other genocides and simply stating facts is discrimination against Jews and antisemitic. Well, kinda grabs all the ammunition from the other side.
I only hope that you are Jewish yourself, because if it's another German running for rescue because of evil history... Well, damn. I'm really sorry for you.
Even tho I guess it's too late to convince you, I do not actually hate Jews. But I dislike Israel and the supremacist/religious fanatics whom are the loud minority in Jewish community (which every God damn race or religion has, let's not debate this). And especially I despise people who make money on others suffering. This beauty pageant is not organized because of these survivors, but because it sells. |
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 treekiller United States. July 01 2012 17:37. Posts 236 | Profile # |
| What if Germany had a Miss Holocaust contest, for women who were born as a result of the Holocaust(i.e. rape)? |
| | All good things must come to an end. Therefore, SC2 will last forever |
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| mahO France. July 01 2012 17:40. Posts 268 | Profile # |
On July 01 2012 17:17 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 15:52 mahO wrote:
On July 01 2012 01:57 WhiteDog wrote:
On June 30 2012 15:52 tdt wrote:
Discusting how OP and other posters can trivializee wiping out half a population. Only thing comparable historically is like Ghangis khan wiping out Persians. Doesnt matter how stupid you think it is Never again w/o taking world with them.
I suggest you start reading history, the shoah or holocaust is not the most massive murder during WW2, it's the biggest murder of civilian maybe, and it's the most symbolic because Hitler and the nazis designed the jews as the "ennemies".
No it's not the biggest murder of civilian, dont state bullshit facts when we're talking millions of lives, and especially not when you start your post with "I suggest you start reading history", idiot... Chinese civilian casualties during World War 2 : 7,000,000 to 16,000,000 (Wikipedia). Soviet : 12,700,000 to 14,600,000 We never talk about it, but China got massacred for the same reason than jewish people : japanese considered them as "less human" or whatever fucked up ideology those bastards could have at this time. And you know whats funny? In my history class in highschool, we must have spent 20 minutes talking about China's situation during WW2, but yet, we're still talking about the holocaust every week in newspaper. And by the way, if you try to bring up the fact that the way jewish were executed and treated during WW2 was more "horrible", it's not even the case, I suggest you read a little about the Japanese army during WW2. Same for Soviet Union, there is no comparison between suffering, and between millions of lives stolen. Thats for sure, but why do we keep ignoring some to the profit of others?
Calm yourself little midget, I think you didn't read my post well. I said maybe (I even put it in italic for midget like you to understand) because I didn't had numbers. I was only answering to the guy saying it was the bigger massacre only historically comparable to "Ghangis Khan wiping out persians". My point was exactly the same you are making now, except I didn't had numbers and didn't want to search for them. Thanks to you for giving me numbers by the way.
I guess calling someone you never saw a "midget" makes your point valid? If you dont know the numbers, idiot, why claim it's the biggest murder of civilians without taking 30 seconds to type "civilian casualties ww2" on google? You're welcome for the numbers, lazy idiot*
On July 01 2012 17:27 Mayhemia- wrote:
Show nested quote +
the amount of antisemitism in this thread is disgusting. jews are trying to kill the palestines, really? ever read the hamas charter? or heard about the rockets that are going down on israel on a daily basis almost? do you even know that the palestine population is growing? do you even care about any of those facts or does it just feel good for you to spew your antisemitism around in an online forum?
Well, it seems that antisemitism is merely criticizing anything Israel does. When do people understand that you do not need to be racist anti-semite freak if you do voice your opinion against someone who is different. Israel and Palestine are pretty much in war, there are religious fanatics on both sides and the whole lot is such a mess that only relocating one people or destroying the other will end the fighting. You may defend Israelis all you want, but the fact is that both sides have been aggressors since the times Israel was founded. "In 1947, the British government announced it would withdraw from Mandatory Palestine, stating it was unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both Arabs and Jews." British left both peoples to fend for themselves. Both of them having a claim to the land, which was earlier British territory. Jerusalem being very important city in three religions does not help at all. Israel is very disturbing state at the moment in my opinion. Christian population in Israel is openly spit on, harassed and belittled by Jewish population.
Show nested quote +and why does everyone and their mother feel the need to downplay the shoah by comparing death numbers to other genocides? i cant eat the amount i want to vomit when i read this:
Because there have been genocides and there will be genocides all around the world. For first, Holocaust term, is downplaying ALL OTHER GENOCIDES. Because, for some reason one is placed over every other terrible moment in the history. Communists, African civil wars, Japanese occupation of far-east. Japanese killed estimated 7 to 16 mil. Chinese, 400k-500k koreans and variety of other nationalities. They tortured, raped and killed civilians for fun, for sport and for destruction of lower species. See Rape of Nanking. Now, tell me WHY THE HELL Jews will get silk glove treatment. When there have been so many horrors. Holocaust, Stalin, Japs, Africans fighting themselves (genocides, ethnic purges). Either we should talk about them all, or none.
Show nested quote +
if any western politician (im not talking about your idols from damascus and teheran) would say this, he would be out of the game and for a good reason.
Actually, no. Polish and Baltic states have a lot of politicians who have said such things. 3rd Reich copied various parts of Soviet gulags, because Nazi officials were impressed how efficiently Soviets were able to kill whole populations through forced labor camps. Whilst Nazis generally were able to create even more efficient camps, I still stand my point. These regimes were as evil and horrible from normal human perspective, and their deeds should be judged accordingly. Holocaust does not deserve to be the only Genocide.
Thank you for bringing some truth to Oroboros, I didnt read one single anti-semitic post in this whole thread, and as usual, whenever you dear criticize the amount of attention the holocaust gets, or even if you DARE criticize the state of Israel, you're anti semitic, thats weird huh, the guy got 2 posts.
Also, yeah, Israel in under suuuuch huge military pressure from Palestine man, , Israeli kids die everyday under those rockets... you got your numbers right...
People like you make me vomit too, I guess good? We can vomit together in hatred of eachother, sounds like fun. |
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| Cereb Denmark. July 01 2012 17:52. Posts 2400 | Profile # |
In my opinion the only people who should have anything to say regarding whether this is acceptable or not is other holocaust suvivors.
The feeling from everyone else that "you should forever stay in a sad state of mind to show others you experienced this horrible thing" is kinda interesting to me. They can do whatever they like. If they are having a good time then that's wonderful.
Though if other survivors found it really offensive then I might be willing to consider this problematic, though I would probably still favor those who do things in the name of living a happy life for themselves. |
| | "Until the very very top in almost anything, all that matters is how much work you put in. The only problem is most people can't work hard even at things they do enjoy, much less things they don't have a real passion for. -Greg "IdrA" Fields |
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| Goozen Israel. July 01 2012 17:55. Posts 622 | Profile # |
The amount of idiocy in this thread....
Israel didnt have anything to do with the pageant it was done by a private group.
The Israeli Palestinian conflict has nothing to do with this.
No one is saying other tragedies and massacres haven't occurred no that they shouldn't be remembered and taught, However alot of them are not because of modern day politics and that a very unfortunate thing. However, this has nothing at all to do with this topic. |
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| Mayhemia- Finland. July 01 2012 18:05. Posts 33 | Profile # |
On July 01 2012 17:55 Goozen wrote:
The amount of idiocy in this thread....
Israel didnt have anything to do with the pageant it was done by a private group.
The Israeli Palestinian conflict has nothing to do with this.
No one is saying other tragedies and massacres haven't occurred no that they shouldn't be remembered and taught, However alot of them are not because of modern day politics and that a very unfortunate thing. However, this has nothing at all to do with this topic.
Discussion about any news concerning Holocaust derails well beyond reasonable measure when someone mentions antisemitism. Which is sad, but that's how people are.
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| Oroboros Germany. July 01 2012 18:18. Posts 37 | Profile # |
Also, yeah, Israel in under suuuuch huge military pressure from Palestine man, , Israeli kids die everyday under those rockets... you got your numbers right...
thanks to the IDF
Thank you for bringing some truth to Oroboros, I didnt read one single anti-semitic post in this whole thread, and as usual, whenever you dear criticize the amount of attention the holocaust gets, or even if you DARE criticize the state of Israel, you're anti semitic, thats weird huh, the guy got 2 posts.
go ahead and make valid critiism of israel. there is plenty to critisize about that state. and you would find out that its only in your fantasy that you somehow arent allowed to criticize israel.
What if Germany had a Miss Holocaust contest, for women who were born as a result of the Holocaust(i.e. rape)?
not sure what youre saying. but why should germany have a contest? its people or organizations that do such things. it depends on them
I only hope that you are Jewish yourself, because if it's another German running for rescue because of evil history... Well, damn. I'm really sorry for you.
no im not jewish.
your argument can be called antisemitic because it brought up the historically very old clichee that jews just seek for more money (which has its origin because at one point in history jews were forced into being money lenders) or control all the money in the world.
Because there have been genocides and there will be genocides all around the world. For first, Holocaust term, is downplaying ALL OTHER GENOCIDES. Because, for some reason one is placed over every other terrible moment in the history. Communists, African civil wars, Japanese occupation of far-east.
of course there have been other genocides with the "same" (its a strange word in the context since were talking about personal experiences) cruelty on an individual level.
just try to ask why there is an extra term (holocaus or better shoah) and its not just called "the genocide against jews" or something else. when new words come into existance it means that there was a need for them. scientists who are studying the shoah and other genocides think that there are differences between them that justify calling it a unique genocide. i guess there are tons of articles out there that make good arguments for the "uniqueness of the holocaust".
dont just about death numbers and form of killing here.
btw.: many people also complain about the term antisemitism itself and ask why it isnt simply called "racism against jews". they dont recognize that hatred towards jews is of another quality than racism. the racism thinks that other races are inferior to him. the antisemite however constructs a jewish conspiracy and believes that jews are somehow mightier than him and controls or destroys everything. |
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| Oroboros Germany. July 01 2012 18:24. Posts 37 | Profile # |
On July 01 2012 17:55 Goozen wrote:
The amount of idiocy in this thread....
Israel didnt have anything to do with the pageant it was done by a private group.
The Israeli Palestinian conflict has nothing to do with this.
No one is saying other tragedies and massacres haven't occurred no that they shouldn't be remembered and taught, However alot of them are not because of modern day politics and that a very unfortunate thing. However, this has nothing at all to do with this topic.
yeah man. i have no idea why they always feel the need to complain about the shoah being so present in our media when they just want to inform about other genocides.
a funny sidenote to that. i strongly believ that the people who pretend to care about the victims of genocides are amongst the first who speak out against intervention in syria. |
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| DoubleReed United States. July 02 2012 07:58. Posts 3133 | Profile Blog # |
Again, the reason the holocaust gets more attention is because of ethnocentrism. It's western. It has nothing to do with the Jews, except for maybe the fact that Jews migrated to the US and made movies and stuff about it. And perhaps because American soldiers actually firsthand saw the remnants of it.
The other genocides are just irrelevant to thread. For what purpose are they being brought up? On the other side of things, I could also bring up the Spanish Inquisition, because it has about as much relevance.
The argument that the Holocaust downplays other genocides is laughable. If anything it draws more attention to them.Last edit: 2012-07-02 07:59:33 |
| | Baby, you want to make like Stravinsky and perform a Rite of Spring? |
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| NEEDZMOAR Sweden. July 09 2012 07:00. Posts 738 | Profile Blog # |
On July 01 2012 16:59 Oroboros wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 01:48 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
I honestly thougt It was a joke and I didnt realise u're actually being serious until 30% into the post....
I dont know what to say really, the fact that Israel is a part of it is so hypocritical, the state of Israel is so quick on playing the victim card due to the persecution of jews during ww2, now they are doing a beautycontest for the survivors? who would even want to participate??? and meanwhile this joke is going on they are trying to exterminate the palestinian people.
the whole thing is making me sick.
the amount of antisemitism in this thread is disgusting. jews are trying to kill the palestines, really? ever read the hamas charter? or heard about the rockets that are going down on israel on a daily basis almost? do you even know that the palestine population is growing? do you even care about any of those facts or does it just feel good for you to spew your antisemitism around in an online forum? and why does everyone and their mother feel the need to downplay the shoah by comparing death numbers to other genocides? i cant eat the amount i want to vomit when i read this:
Show nested quote +Holocaust gets an unfair amount of attention compared to other genocidal episodes -- don't get me started on why this might be so -- but I don't see anything wrong with this particular event.
Show nested quote +While we're on the subject of unmentioned ww2 genocide, don't forget the crap the poles got at the hands of stalin. He was almost if not just as bad as Hitler himself.
if any western politician (im not talking about your idols from damascus and teheran) would say this, he would be out of the game and for a good reason.
Wait a second, so Im an antisemit because Im pro palestine? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... Go and try to figure out in what way that was funny.
. rockets down on Israel on daily basis is bs, give me sources or I'll refer to it as crap. I completely understand the hamas charter since it's justified by the fact that Israel hasnt accepted palestine as a state.
" do you even care about any of those facts or does it just feel good for you to spew your antisemitism around in an online forum?
"
Nice to mix in your prejudices and attack me on a personal level/ try to diminish Teamliquid in one sentence, dont ever put words in my mouth again, thank you.
edit: Here we go again with criticising the state of Israel being compared to antisemitism, but if that's the case then obviously the State of israel must be jewish right? but if the State of Israel is jewish, isnt it controlled by religion? If the State of Israel is controlled by religion doesnt that make the country a Theocracy and if the State of Israel is a Theocracy why is it better than other theocracies such as Iran? Why is it okay for Israel to have Weapons of Mass Destruction and go into war against other countries, but if Iran does the same thing they're getting hated by the rest of the world?
Last edit: 2012-07-09 07:07:34 |
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