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| Hayang United States. June 30 2012 04:05. Posts 22 | Profile # |
Hi and thank you for reading, I'm a top platinum Protoss trying to advance into Diamond. I've been stuck in Plat for quite a while now, and it seems that a lot of my losses in PvZ and PvT are due to sitting on low tech or not transitioning into the lategame effectively, and eventually being run over by Infestor/BL or a lot of bio.
http://drop.sc/209915
This is a game where the Zerg did 3 base roach, with infestors. I opened with a 4 Gate - Robo into fast third opening.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342021
At my level I have usually been able to hold my third, usually because their build is sloppy and late. I understand that my build is not optimal as well, and macro better advice is well taken. However while I am working on my mechanics, I would also like some pointers as to how to play out the lategame when it comes to that.
After the 12~15 minute back-and-forth is over, I am sometimes at a loss as to how to transition.
- Should I be looking to expand when we both have 60+ supply armies? Or should I just try to get a better composition off of three bases after trades?
- What kind of units should I make against the compositions I might face? (In this case, BL/Infestor/Roach)
Basically I'd like to know what to be thinking after the 12~15 minutes trading.Last edit: 2012-06-30 06:01:18 |
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| ThaReckoning United States. June 30 2012 17:29. Posts 189 | Profile # |
The only real advice we can give you from watching this replay is very basic, because macroing well will solve all of your problems. Here are some things to have at certain times in pvz, during the macro game.
Get a third by 10:30 at the latest, and have 6 gates, forge, tc, and robo + one additional flavor structure by then, I prefer stargate openers.
Get colossi and 3 more gates soon after.
Always be scouting the zerg main for a hive transition, as the timing of when he gets broods pretty much dictates when you take your fourth and attack him. At the very latest you should be moving out with a large gateway + immortal + colossus army at 16 minutes with 9-12 gates and a robo of reinforcements. If he goes for faster broods attack sooner (and likely kill him) and if he goes later broods attack then (and likely kill him) During this push you should be dropping tech structures for a mothership + carrier + archon transition, and securing a 4th and maybe fifth.
TL;DR You need colossi faster, vision of the zerg's build and timings, and more production on time. 3-4 production facilities per base is the norm. Last edit: 2012-06-30 17:40:25 |
| | If you want to make one goal, to win, you must lose. |
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 silentdecay01 United States. June 30 2012 17:41. Posts 106 | Profile # |
You need to scout more and be more map aware. You need to know when to build your archon+mothership. At your lvl of play don't go for carriers or anything the person above me stated, as in plat u wont have the micro/resources to do so.
If you can secure your 3rd, You are already in a good spot and should be prepareing for hive tech, and be going for that mothership+Archon torilet. Its the only thing that can counter a late game zerg. If you are blindsided with early broods ect you will lose.
I watched the replay and your map awareness was poor, as well as your macro/micro. If you can improve your macro/micro +timmings vs broodlords you should be able to make it into Dim. As vortex is pretty much the only thing that counters large amounts of broodlord/infestor late game vs zerg
Doing so, Harrasing with warp prism zealots at the zergs 3rd/4th/5th through out the game will help you stall for mothership energy and gain a good spot vs the late game zerg.
Warp prism is very strong vs zerg and should be used early/mid/late game to harras or reinfoce a strong push.
Also learn the immortal/sentry all in to kill the zerg mid game is very strong vs the 3 base roach steph playLast edit: 2012-06-30 17:43:51 |
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| meltingmykohchoo June 30 2012 21:22. Posts 166 | Profile Blog # |
On June 30 2012 17:29 ThaReckoning wrote:
The only real advice we can give you from watching this replay is very basic, because macroing well will solve all of your problems. Here are some things to have at certain times in pvz, during the macro game.
Get a third by 10:30 at the latest, and have 6 gates, forge, tc, and robo + one additional flavor structure by then, I prefer stargate openers.
Get colossi and 3 more gates soon after.
Always be scouting the zerg main for a hive transition, as the timing of when he gets broods pretty much dictates when you take your fourth and attack him. At the very latest you should be moving out with a large gateway + immortal + colossus army at 16 minutes with 9-12 gates and a robo of reinforcements. If he goes for faster broods attack sooner (and likely kill him) and if he goes later broods attack then (and likely kill him) During this push you should be dropping tech structures for a mothership + carrier + archon transition, and securing a 4th and maybe fifth.
TL;DR You need colossi faster, vision of the zerg's build and timings, and more production on time. 3-4 production facilities per base is the norm.
Do all this, and waste your minerals on cannons and warp prisoms w/ zealots to put pressure after the third gets up
edit: well as long as u can afford the robo build time being taken upLast edit: 2012-06-30 21:23:23 |
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| ThaReckoning United States. July 01 2012 02:13. Posts 189 | Profile # |
At your lvl of play don't go for carriers or anything the person above me stated, as in plat u wont have the micro/resources to do so.
I disagree with this line of thought. We should be teaching him solid, standard play that works at every casual level, not teaching him to cut corners because he's in X league. We want him to get better, not just win.
Doing so, Harrasing with warp prism zealots at the zergs 3rd/4th/5th through out the game will help you stall for mothership energy and gain a good spot vs the late game zerg.
Warp prism is very strong vs zerg and should be used early/mid/late game to harras or reinfoce a strong push.
I disagree with this as well, warp prism harass vs zerg is the last thing I would incorporate into my standard pvz play. That's not to say because it's bad or doesn't work, it works perfectly fine, it's just really hard to judge how/when you have the warp ins, economy, and positioning to do this kind of harass. You have to know where the zerg is and what he's going to be doing, and still macroing well at home, etc. We need to be teaching him standard timings and things to watch out for, not focusing his play on harass while neglecting the core of the matchup.
Also learn the immortal/sentry all in to kill the zerg mid game is very strong vs the 3 base roach steph play
Still disagreeing! While all ins are great in a tournament style situation and allow for some great reads on your opponent, and some great head games, I think that they're toxic for you to be doing on ladder, because they work. When they work you become dependent on them, and become a weaker player. |
| | If you want to make one goal, to win, you must lose. |
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| Hayang United States. July 01 2012 11:48. Posts 22 | Profile # |
Thanks very much for your advice. I think it is true that the one thing that will help me the most is my macro, but the general advice you gave me is still very helpful.
It sounds like in this case, I should go for a timing attack after scouting his greater spire building, usually with colossus?
Again when I look over my situation I would probably do well just to scout much better and time a strong attack accordingly, with a maxed army that I build more quickly with better macro. Expand and tech to mothership behind a big attack. And if I have a huge mineral buildup then build cannon/zealot/warp prism (which is still good advice I think).
But I understand that mainly I should focus on playing tightly and scouting.
If you have more suggestions or more guidelines I should follow please let me know. |
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| renoB United States. July 04 2012 05:01. Posts 72 | Profile # |
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-436-p1-pvz-3-base-and-long-term-play-6056377
This daily provides you with the necessary steps to getting 3 bases and what steps in order to obtain a 4th base. There are different options you can do when securing your third, like putting on pressure or feigning pressure. I myself prefer to do a void ray +1 zealot attack on their third or natural. If you mess around using the general guidelines outlined in the daily, you should be able to develop a build you are comfortable with, that allows you to A. get the 16-17 minute timing push and B. succesfully establish a 4th base.
As for dealing with the broodlord/infestor deathball, I've found the best thing to do in this situation is to go around it, either with warp prisms, or recalls from a mothership. Killing the deathball isn't the hard part, its surviving the reinforcements of roaches/lings/etc. The trick is to pick them apart economically so when you do engage their deathball and trade armies, you can reinforce yours, and they cannot. |
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