[D][H] PvT: Dealing with MM dps (late game)

The red line is me

Hi TL,
Today I played a game on Antiga vs. a Terran (I'm silver). Scouted that he expoed early, so I 1 gate FE'd accordingly and decided to go for a macro game. Got colossi, but he had vikings early so that didn't work out. So I dropped down two forges and twilight and got templar instead.

So I had the works - chargelots, archons, templar, and a few stalkers to boot. The problem is, it wasn't enough to deal with Terran's MM, which had phenomental DPS. I'd carpet the opponent with storm, but he'd just run back. Stimmed MM runs faster than templar so soon I'd be out of storm range. I tried adding colossi briefly but never committed to it. Look at that red line fall while the blue line barely takes a dip.

What was the problem here? I think my macro was not too bad - I was on three bases, had a ton of gateways, and wasn't floating millions of minerals. Was my micro an positioning bad? How can I rectify these problems?

Perhaps I should have gotten my third earlier, or maybe I should have sent some warp prisms over to harass. He did have map control most of the game. I tried to take the center but couldn't, so maybe that's the reason I lost.

http://drop.sc/210085

Last edit: 2012-06-30 12:57:09

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Blimp June 30 2012 15:43. Posts 44

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Hey Surya!

Great game. I think you dealt with the MMM viking really well until two things happen:
-You over-extended into the Terran natural after you killed the Terran army
-Your archon/charlot positioning was poor and you lost the third

When you won the first engagement and killed the vikings I likey our switch into archon. Was a good decision because you knew he was commiting to MMM. You completely nullified the additional vikings he made. If you do decide to stop collosi production I would use the robo bay for a couple additional observers.

Keeping a few observers outside your perimeter would have kept you safe from additional drops and watch for army movement. With that in mind you could have kept the army closer to your third's opening and still been sable to defend your 2nd.

Last edit: 2012-06-30 15:46:26

lordsurya08 United States. July 01 2012 03:02. Posts 101

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Thanks for the advice, Blimp. What is good positioning, then? In that engagement at the third I sent in my zealots and archons first...what should I have done instead?

Last edit: 2012-07-01 03:02:44

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thrawn2112 United States. July 01 2012 05:31. Posts 3599

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On July 01 2012 03:02 lordsurya08 wrote:
Thanks for the advice, Blimp. What is good positioning, then? In that engagement at the third I sent in my zealots and archons first...what should I have done instead?

only the zealots were able to attack and they were attacking through a choke. other than using observers to be in a good position before the terran moved in there wasnt much you could do after he took out your third. if you really wanted to attack him at that point then you should have flanked with templar or something, and dont attack in a position where half your army isnt doing anything

"People think they know all these things about other people, and if you ask them why they think they know that, it'd be hard for them to be convincing." ES

lordsurya08 United States. July 01 2012 06:10. Posts 101

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On July 01 2012 05:31 thrawn2112 wrote:

only the zealots were able to attack and they were attacking through a choke. other than using observers to be in a good position before the terran moved in there wasnt much you could do after he took out your third. if you really wanted to attack him at that point then you should have flanked with templar or something, and dont attack in a position where half your army isnt doing anything

So how do I get my whole army to attack the enemy? Because of charge the zealots will get ahead of the rest of my army and I can't do anything except retreat my zealots, which is counterproductive. Should I research blink and blink my stalkers on top of the MM ball? In that case the archons go to the back, and they don't have enough range to attack.

As for flanking with templar, I don't have the micro to do that just yet because I have everything hotkeyed to 1. Maybe I should practice hotkeying the templar separately.

Anyone else have ideas? I'm sure many other Protosses are facing similar problems and that your responses will be helpful to them as well.

Last edit: 2012-07-01 06:11:41

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-Switch- Canada. July 01 2012 06:40. Posts 426

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Hi there, i watched the replay and i will try to give as many tips and as much advice as i can. First off you want to be making at least 2 obs before making anything else from your robotics if you don't think that some sort of pressure is on the way. Also antiga is a rough map for PvT and i would suggest building a couple cannons in your main base unless you plan on keeping blink stalkers back there to ward off drops. One cannon and a high templar is usually enough to ward off drops or at least buy time to warp in some zealots to defend. At the 14 minute engagement you had literally won the game had your scouting been a bit better. You needed to scout the fact that he had not built a third yet and after you killed his entire army you honestly don't need to push in for the kill with your 3rd base about to finish. Also gateway units without some sort of splash support unless they have an upgrade advantage against MMM are not cost efficient in the slightest so at that point you want to back off and go for that zealot, collosus, archon composition with maybe a few high templar with storm and then attack again.

As for that last engagement you move commanded for a couple seconds with most of your units which made you get absolutely destroyed. Just need to work on your army control and maybe go up to around 5 or 6 collosus for that late composition. Target down vikings with stalkers and you'll be code S in no time =D

GLGL

- Switch

netherh United Kingdom. July 01 2012 06:46. Posts 269

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In the last engagement (30:00 minutes), you actually right-click instead of a-moving, and your whole army walks to it's death without attacking.

Your opponent accumulates a vast number of medivacs with lots of energy, which could be instantly dispatched by using feedback. Without the medivacs bio just dies to anything.

I'd suggest a separate hotkey for templar. Also, pay attention to which ones you morph into archons. Keep the highest energy ones around for storms / feedback and just morph the new warp ins.

MrRicewife Canada. July 01 2012 06:56. Posts 415

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I can tell that without even looking at the replay the big fault was one battle. Just look at your graph. At that time, check what happened on replay.

So? My dad can beat up your dad. - Jesus

lordsurya08 United States. July 01 2012 09:14. Posts 101

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On July 01 2012 06:40 -Switch- wrote:
Hi there, i watched the replay and i will try to give as many tips and as much advice as i can. First off you want to be making at least 2 obs before making anything else from your robotics if you don't think that some sort of pressure is on the way. Also antiga is a rough map for PvT and i would suggest building a couple cannons in your main base unless you plan on keeping blink stalkers back there to ward off drops. One cannon and a high templar is usually enough to ward off drops or at least buy time to warp in some zealots to defend. At the 14 minute engagement you had literally won the game had your scouting been a bit better. You needed to scout the fact that he had not built a third yet and after you killed his entire army you honestly don't need to push in for the kill with your 3rd base about to finish. Also gateway units without some sort of splash support unless they have an upgrade advantage against MMM are not cost efficient in the slightest so at that point you want to back off and go for that zealot, collosus, archon composition with maybe a few high templar with storm and then attack again.

As for that last engagement you move commanded for a couple seconds with most of your units which made you get absolutely destroyed. Just need to work on your army control and maybe go up to around 5 or 6 collosus for that late composition. Target down vikings with stalkers and you'll be code S in no time =D

GLGL

- Switch

Okay, good advice. As for dealing with drops, I am unable to use HTs for base defence since I don't notice the medivac until it's started unloading. I need to see the medivac as it comes so that I can feedback. How can I improve my map awareness so that I can spot these drops coming? Even if I had observers all around my base I wouldn't notice it coming since my screen is elsewhere.

Last edit: 2012-07-01 09:15:41

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