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| SC2John United States. June 30 2012 22:24. Posts 984 | Profile # |
This morning I was thinking about the all-ins terran had, most of them including pulling SCVs. Aside from 1-1-1 variations, it seems like all terran all-ins are based on making a lot of early marines and pulling SCVs or doing proxy marauders. But the biggest problems with those all-ins is dealing with a wall-off. It's generally accepted that 1base 4-5rax SHOULD always lose in TvT to a wall-off.
So I thought about what might be good at knocking down a wall, and decided reapers could rip down a supply depot or a bunker really easily. With that, I started trying to craft a build.
That being said, I've tried adapting a standard 2rax opening to making reapers instead of marauders. I build my first rax in base, get a reactor after first marine, then proxy a second rax fairly close to my opponent's base, getting a techlab asap. From there, I have nonstop SCV/reaper/marine production until I have 3 reapers.
Using my initial marines (5-6), I scout around and try to take some towers to deny vision, hiding the rest of my marines. The best way to hide marines, I've found, is to just spread them out in groups of 4-5 throughout your base. At some point, I end up floating a lot of minerals, so I like to throw down a CC at my natural (and let it be scouted if possible).
When I reach 3 reapers, I lift the proxy barracks and move it to my opponent's ramp. Leading with a small pack of marines, I push with about 10 marines/3 reapers/25 SCVs at about 7:00. Back at home, I still have my reactor rax rallied to the front with the leftover money I have, as well as 2 orbitals.
I've tried this twice against the Thorzain opening (which is the safest opening in the game, IMO), and crushed it twice, even with the wall up. The DPS of the reapers is INSANE, and they knock down supply depots and bunkers in literally 4 seconds flat. The floating rax serves not only as kind of a PDD, but also spots the high ground so I can get a good concave on a bunker if I need to. After breaking the front, my opponent is forced to pull SCVs to hold, to which I just make sure I have a good SCV line and micro my reapers.
This is still a fairly new build, and I feel like in the higher levels (masters + GMs), this would be easily scouted and stopped. I'm still working on the scout timings, and I've yet to see it against something like proxy marauders or reapers.
So, my questions to you, TL:
1) What do you think? Viable? Easily stoppable? I don't have enough experience to have conclusive evidence on its effectiveness...do you think it will work versus other openings?
2) Assuming I break the ramp and end up losing the rush with a fairly even trade, is it possible to resume a normal macro game, falling back on my 2 orbitals and reactor rax? My thought process is that I will trade almost evenly for SCVs, so I can fall back on the orbitals + MULES + whatever extra money I had.
3) Test it out please! If you think it's viable...or even if you don't, please test it out some, doing some rearranging, etc, and let me know how it works! I feel like there's a better way to do it, but I really like the core idea!
REPLAYS:
+ Show Spoiler +NOTE: this is NOT a refined build, I'm still in the process of playing with it and rearranging things. In these replays, neither player does the Thorzain build 100% right, but it's close enough. I believe the Thorzain build should have CS by 6:30. http://drop.sc/210173http://drop.sc/210174
EDIT: attack timing updated
EDIT: first replays addedLast edit: 2012-06-30 22:58:50 |
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| Dark.EX United States. June 30 2012 22:31. Posts 1515 | Profile Blog # |
| It needs replays in order to be sure of anything. |
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| BronzeKnee United States. June 30 2012 22:31. Posts 2763 | Profile # |
This isn't really a guide and I really think you should give us at least one replay (the more the better though).
3 Reapers is also enough to one shot a Marine or SCV early, so this doesn't have to be an all-in, it can be a powerful harrass while you transition back home. |
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| Artline June 30 2012 22:32. Posts 171 | Profile # |
Please post a replay of you winning I am interested.
I keep thinking that extra bunkers will defeat this because it is a frontal attack and that is what your opponent will suspect with marines moving around the map, despite showing only a small group. A late CC and a reactor is quite fishy. Besides, with the gas to make the reactor, your opponent will most likely scan to see what's up.Last edit: 2012-06-30 22:32:58 |
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| zezamer Finland. June 30 2012 22:36. Posts 1805 | Profile # |
Why you would do this instead of the speedreaper/hellion/medivac ?
I don't see any way to get back to normal game from this since even tho you're on 2 orbitals, your opponent will have tech lead in form of medivac/tanks or bio upgrades.
Also isn't thorzain opening by far most fragile opening vs 1 base plays ?Last edit: 2012-06-30 22:37:54 |
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 GRCJH Canada. June 30 2012 22:38. Posts 76 | Profile # | |
| | you were born too soon, you'll never explore the galaxy |
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| iAmJeffReY United States. June 30 2012 22:44. Posts 3428 | Profile # |
If you want all in reaper builds, do standard reaper/hellion medivac, but drop 2nd rax after 2nd gas when you get 150 mins, then drop factory. You push out with ~6-7 reapers, 4hellions 1 medivac. Then constant hellion reaper rally.
It's very, very all in.
I don't see any way to get back to normal game from this since even tho you're on 2 orbitals, your opponent will have tech lead in form of medivac/tanks or bio upgrades.
This. This is so true.Last edit: 2012-06-30 22:45:04 |
| | iAmJeffReY.267 /// http://www.twitch.tv/iamjeffrey_ |
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| cristo1122 Australia. June 30 2012 22:53. Posts 501 | Profile Blog # |
| this is an old build (though this seems to be a less obtimal variation) there is an indepth guide on specific timeings and such and includings high masters replays |
| | ZvP imbalanced blizzards solution nerf terran |
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| SC2John United States. June 30 2012 22:57. Posts 984 | Profile # |
3 Reapers is also enough to one shot a Marine or SCV early, so this doesn't have to be an all-in, it can be a powerful harrass while you transition back home.
That's an interesting thought. When I first saw this, I thought it was a bad idea, but it makes sense. If I see something like additional bunkers at the front or I know he's going banshees, I can just harass while transitioning into a normal macro game. I will have made him paranoid enough to not expand. An idea, perhaps.
Why you would do this instead of the speedreaper/hellion/medivac ?
I don't see any way to get back to normal game from this since even tho you're on 2 orbitals, your opponent will have tech lead in form of medivac/tanks or bio upgrades.
Also isn't thorzain opening by far most fragile opening vs 1 base plays ?
I don't like the speed reaper 1-1-1. It's very fragile and difficult to pull off convincingly. I would say that about 90% of builds can deal with the speed reaper 1-1-1 with decent preparation. Plus, I like frontal attack styles anyway.
If we trade SCVs, my opponent MAY have the lead in the form of stim or CS, but has no ability to produce anything except marines + SCVs, the same as me. That being said, the transition may be into something like cloaked banshees or tanks to hold off any counter-aggression.
And no, the Thorzain opening is the most optimal form of 1rax FE, aside from maybe a 1-1-1 (reactor rax + techlab fact + naked SP). It's flexible and can hold off many all-ins with only a little preparation.
REPLAYS:
+ Show Spoiler +NOTE: this is NOT a refined build, I'm still in the process of playing with it and rearranging things. In these replays, neither player does the Thorzain build 100% right, but it's close enough. I believe the Thorzain build should have CS by 6:30. http://drop.sc/210173http://drop.sc/210174 |
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| zezamer Finland. June 30 2012 23:18. Posts 1805 | Profile # |
I got a headache from watching your opponents' builds. Like who gets +1 attack before stim/combat shields. Or opens rax gas tech lab CC but doesn't get reaper, and goes stim first.
I'll probably try the build couple times later today and post some feelings.
off topic:Isn't thorzain build rax-depo-expo, 2nd rax, 2xgas(2 on each), 3rd rax, tech lab, reactors and rax 2 and 3 asap, engibay ?Last edit: 2012-06-30 23:21:53 |
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| SC2John United States. June 30 2012 23:24. Posts 984 | Profile # |
On June 30 2012 23:18 zezamer wrote:
I got a headache from watching your opponents' builds. Like who gets +1 attack before stim/combat shields. Or opens rax gas tech lab CC but doesn't get reaper, and goes stim first.
off topic:Isn't thorzain build rax-depo-expo, 2nd rax, 2 gas(2 on each), 3rd rax, tech lab, reactors and rax 2 and 3 asap, engibay ?
2gas goes down before the second rax. After starting CS, add 1 to each gas and you'll have just enough gas to build Factory @100 and build reactors on raxes as soon as they're done building. All 3 rax are built by the same SCV, one at a time.
And looking back on it, it's the same configuration as Thorzain, but really a suboptimization...one of those players is even a masters player, which is sad. He scanned my main twice :/. |
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| StaticMilk July 01 2012 01:39. Posts 19 | Profile # |
On June 30 2012 22:44 iAmJeffReY wrote:If you want all in reaper builds, do standard reaper/hellion medivac, but drop 2nd rax after 2nd gas when you get 150 mins, then drop factory. You push out with ~6-7 reapers, 4hellions 1 medivac. Then constant hellion reaper rally. It's very, very all in.
Show nested quote +I don't see any way to get back to normal game from this since even tho you're on 2 orbitals, your opponent will have tech lead in form of medivac/tanks or bio upgrades.
This. This is so true.
What reaper/hellion medivac build is this? Can you link it? Or is it the really old one that Boxer used to do?
Edit: Nvm found it.Last edit: 2012-07-01 01:42:07 |
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| SC2John United States. July 01 2012 02:31. Posts 984 | Profile # |
After some more research, I found that it does VERY badly against gas first builds (such as the hellion/reaper all-in or the fast tank push), but that it's nearly unstoppable against a FE, especially if it goes unscouted.
General consensus of a friend and mine is that if it's a gas first build, treat it simply like a 2rax pressure into expand. |
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| SpeCtor July 01 2012 02:41. Posts 233 | Profile # |
| ThorZain's gasless expand can hold of many 1 base tank pushes however due to the fact the build times for a stim, +1, 2 medivac push, still often comes very late which can cause problems if the all-in-ing player is aggressive with his tanks. |
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| goFLiP Argentina. July 01 2012 03:00. Posts 39 | Profile # |
| If you come ahead even in scvs you'll probably lose because the tech gap is way too big. It's an all in so you don't want to have an expansion because you won't be able to defend it if you lost the fight. You need to make it even more all in so that you have higher chances of winning the fight. I say you fuck that CC and drop 2 more rax and make even more marines or reapers. I didn't really mess with the build but maybe you know what you can put instead of a CC. Last edit: 2012-07-01 03:01:50 |
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| Indrium United States. July 01 2012 12:05. Posts 2185 | Profile # |
On July 01 2012 01:39 StaticMilk wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 22:44 iAmJeffReY wrote:If you want all in reaper builds, do standard reaper/hellion medivac, but drop 2nd rax after 2nd gas when you get 150 mins, then drop factory. You push out with ~6-7 reapers, 4hellions 1 medivac. Then constant hellion reaper rally. It's very, very all in.
I don't see any way to get back to normal game from this since even tho you're on 2 orbitals, your opponent will have tech lead in form of medivac/tanks or bio upgrades.
This. This is so true.
What reaper/hellion medivac build is this? Can you link it? Or is it the really old one that Boxer used to do? Edit: Nvm found it.
Where did you find it, if I may ask? |
| | http://www.twitter.com/indrium | qxc, Bomber, aLive, Flash | Sheth, Ret, Curious, viOlet, Jaedong | Socke, HerO | StarTale, Liquid |
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| goFLiP Argentina. July 07 2012 07:46. Posts 39 | Profile # |
| Bump because I want to know how this ended out or OP refined the build. |
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