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| HardlyNever United States. July 01 2012 02:20. Posts 918 | Profile Blog # |
Disclaimer: This is not a whine thread about Diablo 3 or the loot in D3. If you want to do that, please do so in one of the numerous threads where that discussion is taking place.
This might be more appropriate for blogs, I'm not entirely sure. If so, I apologize and feel free to move it. This is going to be pretty long.
I like Diablo games, and I like Diablo 3. This isn't a thread about hating on Diablo or D3, or any of its perceived gear/loot issues or anything of that nature. If you want to do that, please do so in another thread, there are several of them out there. This is a thread about a mentality that I've encountered both in-game and on these forums to various degrees, and I'm honestly hoping someone could explain it to me, because I can't understand it.
I'll start with a quick story about me and my brother playing that will hopefully illustrate this mentality in action. My brother and I have played D3 a lot since release. Pre-patch 1.0.3, we primarily did siegebreaker runs as Wiz/DH, with the odd break into act 2 or butcher runs sometimes. By the end of it, I was really tired of siegebreaker and act 3 in general, but I knew that the loot was changing, and more importantly the top tier items were selling fast on the RMAH, and I wanted to get my cut of the profit before the bubble burst. In short, I had largely stopped having fun with the game, or at least the way I was playing it, but was trying to get some cash out of the deal while I could, because I knew changes were coming. Come 1.0.3 we had switched to Barb/monk, largely for fun, but also because we died less and it was a good change of pace (his Wiz got hit hard by the IAS nerf as well). We started doing a lot more variety of areas, trying different builds, and generally enjoying the game more.
Then came a moment which largely encapsulates the mentality I want to talk about. My brother on his barb had taken to the habit of sprinting passed all the trash, in order to cut straight to the elite packs. That is to say, he would completely avoid killing anything if at all possible, so he could get to the loot faster. When I asked him why he did this, he said it was faster. I said it was retarded, and I wasn't going to play that way, as killing monsters was just as much part of the fun of Diablo as getting loot, to me. He asked why I wanted to kill trash, and I said because it was fun. We had a bit of a fight about it, but eventually he sort of acquiesced and we started playing a more "standard" way of killing the trash we run into while looking for packs. He then said he only did it because some of the trash where he was farming was especially hard. Ok. We got over it and moved on. I see him doing it sometimes when he plays alone, but that's fine. If that is how he has fun, then have at it. The thing I can't understand is WHY that is fun. As in, what is the point.
For me, diablo games(or similar "ARPGs" of the genre) are about killing baddies and getting loot, in fairly equal parts. More specifically they are about killing baddies to get loot so you can kill more baddies and get more loot. Both aspects have to be there for the genre to work. Don't get me wrong, I like loot. I think it is fun and needs to be there. But I like loot because it makes my character more powerful when I fight baddies. The above story essentially takes the baddies out of the equation. It basically reduces the game to I get loot so I get more loot. And the thing is, I can tell he isn't alone. There are a LOT of people that have this mentality, and I honestly don't see where the enjoyment comes from. In fact, if I could only take one half of the "equation" that is diablo (killing baddies, getting loot), I would take the killing baddies part. The game would be worse for it, but you would be left with something like a Double Dragon or Streets of Rage. You kill baddies because killing baddies is fun, in a sort of mindless adolescent way. However, if you remove the killing baddies part, you are left with something like a virtual slot machine. You are just pulling the lever until something pops up and says "you win... virtual items!" But the virtual items don't mean anything, if you don't want to kill baddies with them. They aren't anchored in anything. There is no point in getting loot if you don't enjoy the other half of the game, to me. The only other thing you could do with them is sell them on the RMAH. However, if you are playing the game strictly to make money from it, and don't enjoy any of it at all, this is a really inefficient way to go about making money.
When I asked my brother why he wanted loot if he didn't want to kill bad guys with it, he didn't really have an answer. The only things he has sold on the RMAH have been for Blizzard bucks, so he isn't doing it for the money. In fact, I'm the one who has the money sent to paypal, but I still wouldn't play the game just for loot. So I put the question to the people on these forums. The guys who complained the most about the loot reduction in early 1.0.3. The people who always want the most efficient farming runs, or the best farming spec. The guys who farmed the act 2 goblin endlessly. Was it just for the RMAH? What enjoyment do you get out of the "loot game" if you don't enjoy actually PLAYING the game (i.e. killing bad guys)? I'm not saying its "wrong" I just honestly can't understand the entertainment value of it. If it is genuinely fun for you, could you please explain why?
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| awu25 United States. July 01 2012 02:25. Posts 2000 | Profile # |
| Loot -> more gold -> better items for myself -> killing bad guys faster |
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| Bippzy United States. July 01 2012 02:31. Posts 1335 | Profile Blog # |
You know...the goal of diablo 3 is to become super geared, and killing whites prolongs the already large amount of time farming. Some people like to be efficient, they can have fun later. This is akin to another action RPG, Kingdom hearts, where I ran past heartless to kill a specific heartless that dropped the one item I need so I could craft ultima. Once you are the best, you can walk around being god. Until then, why wait?
I would probably benefitfrom your view of the game, and indeed i dont run past whites. But everyone wants to be perfectly geared |
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| CamTSU United States. July 01 2012 02:37. Posts 84 | Profile # |
I think your friend may be at the point where he is starting to realize the staleness that is diablo 3, unfortunately 
The loot is the only actual appeal for most people, it's more like a gambling addiction in a way, you enjoy killing things for the chance at a great reward.
That's all fine and good for awhile, and people may enjoy this for a long while to come! However, for a lot of people this will quickly begin to become tedious, uninteresting, and as the market value of items continues to deteriorate and the rate of which you actually sell them for real income diminishes, people will begin to leave the game.
PvP could turn this all around if it's done right. This could give the game entirely new loot tables that people consider "good" or "godly". These items could have no real relevance to monster killing, but make builds viable in the arena, which might actually make the game more like D2 was, where half the fun was trying out a crazy build that wasn't so commonly used, items were under the radar and fun to get for these particular builds, and it might encourage people to try all kinds of different ones.
But yes, the game as it is now is completely circular, and your friend is just running the most efficient form of the small bit of enjoyment he gets from it 
tldr - PvP is endgame, blizzard has to hurry up and get it out there, and pray it doesn't flop. |
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| HardlyNever United States. July 01 2012 02:50. Posts 918 | Profile Blog # |
On July 01 2012 02:37 CamTSU wrote:I think your friend may be at the point where he is starting to realize the staleness that is diablo 3, unfortunately The loot is the only actual appeal for most people, it's more like a gambling addiction in a way, you enjoy killing things for the chance at a great reward. That's all fine and good for awhile, and people may enjoy this for a long while to come! However, for a lot of people this will quickly begin to become tedious, uninteresting, and as the market value of items continues to deteriorate and the rate of which you actually sell them for real income diminishes, people will begin to leave the game. PvP could turn this all around if it's done right. This could give the game entirely new loot tables that people consider "good" or "godly". These items could have no real relevance to monster killing, but make builds viable in the arena, which might actually make the game more like D2 was, where half the fun was trying out a crazy build that wasn't so commonly used, items were under the radar and fun to get for these particular builds, and it might encourage people to try all kinds of different ones. But yes, the game as it is now is completely circular, and your friend is just running the most efficient form of the small bit of enjoyment he gets from it tldr - PvP is endgame, blizzard has to hurry up and get it out there, and pray it doesn't flop.
This is sort of what I'm getting at. I think a lot of people have stopped having fun playing the game, for what the game is, and are only interested in this bizarre "feeling" they get when they get a nice piece of loot. Again, I don't understand it, as that piece of loot will only help you play the game "better," but if you don't enjoy actually playing the game, that is sort of meaningless.
I enjoy the game for what it is. When I get tired of killing baddies, I stop playing. I've already gotten 300+ hours of entertainment from the game, and that is with worth $60 all day for me. However, it seems a lot of people stop having fun, have put in 100s of hours on the game, then turn to this sort of "gear high" thing, realize it is pointless, then come complain about the game on a forum.
Maybe pvp will add a little depth to that, I don't care much either way. I enjoy the game for what it is, but it seems like I'm more of a minority. Oh well.
Last edit: 2012-07-01 02:56:14 |
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| HardlyNever United States. July 01 2012 02:53. Posts 918 | Profile Blog # |
On July 01 2012 02:31 Bippzy wrote:
You know...the goal of diablo 3 is to become super geared, and killing whites prolongs the already large amount of time farming. Some people like to be efficient, they can have fun later. This is akin to another action RPG, Kingdom hearts, where I ran past heartless to kill a specific heartless that dropped the one item I need so I could craft ultima. Once you are the best, you can walk around being god. Until then, why wait?
I would probably benefitfrom your view of the game, and indeed i dont run past whites. But everyone wants to be perfectly geared
You know... I would say the "goal" of diablo 3 is to... wait for it... hold on... have fun? Different people have fun in different ways. I don't think "being super geared" is fun in and of itself. If someone handed me a character that could faceroll through act 4 inferno, I wouldn't have much fun with that. The "journey" is the fun part to me, but again, that's me, and this thread is about trying to understand that "other side." |
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| Goetzinho ftw Germany. July 01 2012 03:31. Posts 115 | Profile # |
tldr - PvP is endgame, blizzard has to hurry up and get it out there, and pray it doesn't flop.
HAHAHAHA! Are you blind or just stupid? Blizz always said PvP won't be balanced and will only be a gimmicky addon - just for fun. The only rewards for PvP are sigils/achievments and no one will play this ridiculous imbalanced PvP.
D3 is dead (at least until the expansion) |
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| CamTSU United States. July 01 2012 03:34. Posts 84 | Profile # |
On July 01 2012 03:31 Goetzinho ftw wrote:
Show nested quote +tldr - PvP is endgame, blizzard has to hurry up and get it out there, and pray it doesn't flop.
HAHAHAHA! Are you blind or just stupid? Blizz always said PvP won't be balanced and will only be a gimmicky addon - just for fun. The only rewards for PvP are sigils/achievments and no one will play this ridiculous imbalanced PvP. D3 is dead (at least until the expansion)
How many things have blizzard "said" and have changed already? I think you're the one that's both blind and stupid. Use your brain, idiot.
User was warned for this post |
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| Kickboxer Slovenia. July 01 2012 04:23. Posts 1049 | Profile Blog # |
| They better be working round the clock for an amazing, rated and ranked pvp experience with nice rewards or they can kiss their Player vs. Economy game goodbye :D |
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| Juicyfruit Canada. July 01 2012 05:06. Posts 3490 | Profile # |
Uhh PvP doesn't have to be perfectly balanced to be fun. It may not be strictly competitive but it doesn't mean people won't enjoy it or that there won't be people taking it seriously.
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| Ig United States. July 01 2012 08:03. Posts 407 | Profile # |
On July 01 2012 02:25 awu25 wrote:
Loot -> more gold -> better items for myself -> killing bad guys faster
I think the issue is more skip normal mobs -> kill only elites for loot -> more gold -> better items -> skip normal mobs -> kill only elite packs a little faster and so on. |
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| EscPlan9 United States. July 01 2012 08:11. Posts 2676 | Profile Blog # |
| It's more fun to kill elite mobs than trash, and you get more rewards on top of it. That's another reason. |
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| HardlyNever United States. July 01 2012 09:23. Posts 918 | Profile Blog # |
I don't find most elite packs fun, I find most of them annoying, with a few exceptions. That is me, though.
I still see some people saying things along the lines of "it's faster" or "it's more rewarding." Faster at getting what? Loot? This is what I keep driving at. WHY do you want the loot? If nothing else is enjoyable about the game, what is the point of loot? What are you going to do with it? Sell it on RMAH? Look at it? Dye it funny colors? Why do you want loot if you don't enjoy the other parts of the game. That is what I can't understand.
Do you enjoy others parts of the game? If so, what? The guy above enjoys killing elite packs, because they are more fun (challenging?). Fair enough. |
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| Ig United States. July 01 2012 11:03. Posts 407 | Profile # |
On July 01 2012 08:11 EscPlan9 wrote:
It's more fun to kill elite mobs than trash, and you get more rewards on top of it. That's another reason.
The (supposed) point of the game isn't to only kill elites for loot to sell on the AH. |
| | E-warrior of the China brigade, 50 cent party member. |
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| turdburgler England. July 01 2012 11:11. Posts 4676 | Profile Blog # |
| no its for the sake of selling loot for real money ;d |
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| Rasera Canada. July 01 2012 11:41. Posts 89 | Profile # |
On July 01 2012 02:20 HardlyNever wrote:
So I put the question to the people on these forums. The guys who complained the most about the loot reduction in early 1.0.3. The people who always want the most efficient farming runs, or the best farming spec. The guys who farmed the act 2 goblin endlessly. Was it just for the RMAH? What enjoyment do you get out of the "loot game" if you don't enjoy actually PLAYING the game (i.e. killing bad guys)? I'm not saying its "wrong" I just honestly can't understand the entertainment value of it. If it is genuinely fun for you, could you please explain why?
To answer your question realistically, the entertainment value of 'fast loot' is that it's a cheap gambling addiction. In my experience, 99.9% of the time, the magic and rare items are terrible. However, that 0.1% of the time I get something good that I can potentially sell or use, which keeps me motivated to keep playing the loot machines. It costs nothing to play this form of gambling other than time (and the upfront D3 cost), so it's a 'harmless addiction'.
These people that play loot for the sake of loot are in the same group of people that play the same slot machine over and over, hoping it'll pay out eventually. The fun is in the gamble, regardless of the payout. Killing whites would be akin to having to grab more change or leaving to eat; just wastes your time that you could be spending on a slot machine. If I can streamline my gambling experience to get as many chances possible in any session, why wouldn't I? Basically, that's what people find entertaining; having as many chances as possible at getting loot, just for the 'high' of getting the loot. Skipping whites streamlines the session, having higher dps allows you to kill stuff faster. it's all about having as many chances as possible at getting loot.
And lets not exclude that, for a portion of these people, the secondary effect is the perceived bragging rights. "Oh look at my <X>, he's got 1000k dps and 700% MF. And I have 400 million gold, I'm so much better than you." You know they're out there, and you know people will play simply to have something to brag (or troll) about.
Personally, my enjoyment in D3 is about experimenting with different builds and different skills, even different passives, just to see what I like. I also play a lot with friends, just leveling together, having fun and joking around. It's also satisfying to me to kill that really hard affixed pack (shielding fast mortar health link dark berserkers anyone?)
I'm playing a witch doctor, only in act 1 inferno thus far; 24k hp; 22k dps; about 300 resists. I constantly switch skills before every warden/butcher run (and yes I can just barely solo butcher at the moment). Right now, I'm toying with Vision Quest, Pierce the Veil, Spirit Vessel, and various attacks. A few days ago, I tried splinters. Yesterday, I was playing with Phantasm glyph for spirit barrage. Today, I'm playing with haunt kite builds. For me, the fun is using different skills to try and get the loot. I know splinters is the most consistent damage spell a witch doctor has, but I think I would go nuts if I had to listen to the *fuh-fuh-fuh* sound that blow darts make, all day every day. The fun is exploring all aspects of the game, not just rolling the dice.
Plus, I'm an achievement hunter, so I fully explore and kill everything for the sake of filling the achievements. To me, loot is entirely random, while achievements have a set goal. Achieving that goal is a bigger fulfillment than mindlessly grinding, so that's what I do. I've got about 60% of all achieves available at the moment in D3, and I'm missing a bunch of easy ones to get as well, but this is how I spend my time. I enjoy the grind and the journey; the loot is just icing on the angel fruit cake.
[b]TL;DR: Most People who enjoy 'Fast loot' have a harmless gambling addiction; the entertainment is from the gamble. |
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