| -eXalt United States. July 01 2012 09:17. Posts 456 | Profile Blog # |
There are a ton of PvT fast expands out there. However, some of them have a very high chance of dying/losing your nexus to some sort of heavy-scv pull aggression (which is pretty popular right now). I'm trying to get some feedback as to what build is the most Economic, while having the most failsafes to defend various all ins. The one that truely conquers this Ratio, should become the most popular FE (by far) in time.
Example's of newer FE's (aside from straight up nexus first, as the build is obviously the most economic but it has its counters):
-ST_Parting 14 gate 17 Nexus:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341631
This build is on the very heavy on Eco, but can very easily die/result in losing the Nexus to an early scv pull right before WG is finished (WG is delayed due to later Cyber).
-Double gas (2 probes in each) expand after stalker
I've seen HerO do this a few times on stream, and I think MvPtails was the one who introduced it. It can get a robo very early, and sentries earlier than other builds due to the earlier gas, but it's nexus comes a bit late (~26). This build probably has the best failsafe due to the earlier robo+sentries, allowing you to completely smash contains (with immortals+sentries) if you do get SCV allined/bunkered at your nat.
-Nexus first into gate/forge+ cannon
I actually don't know a lot about this build, but it's not extremely popular as of late. Seems to hold off most all ins well, but the cannon can in some cases not pay off and set you a bit behind.
-HuK type of expand that gets a nexus ~20 while skipping a zealot.
This build can be great, as you get standard WG timing + a nexus very early.. however it is pretty devastating if you get engineering bay blocked because you skipped a zealot)
-Middle of the road FE that gets it's nexus after the zealot/stalker off of 1 gas, at around 24-26 supply. This is a bit older, but still very popular/standard.
-Older FEs: ie MC's 1 gate FE.
Very safe, but not very economic.
One thing to keep in mind, is that the faster the Nexus, the faster the rest of your complete build order is. Ie if you want to go 2 base storm to defend a 10:20 stim/medivac aggression timing, you probably need a nexus going down before 20 supply in order to get the gases that much earlier, and faster tech to hit that timing.
Thoughts? if you have a new version, please provide a vod/replay in order to show the exact b/o.
Poll: FE stylesMiddle of the road (zealot/stalker > FE) (23) 28% Older FE's ie MC's 1 gate FE (17) 21% ST_parting FE (16) 20% double gas (2 probes in each) FE (14) 17% HuK FE (skips zealot) (7) 9% Nexus > forge/cannon (5) 6% 82 total votes Your vote: FE styles (Vote): ST_parting FE
(Vote): double gas (2 probes in each) FE
(Vote): HuK FE (skips zealot)
(Vote): Nexus > forge/cannon
(Vote): Middle of the road (zealot/stalker > FE)
(Vote): Older FE's ie MC's 1 gate FE
Last edit: 2012-07-01 15:23:14 |
|
|
| NoisyNinja United States. July 01 2012 10:28. Posts 982 | Profile # |
| I prefer my zealot stalker then nexus expand because that's the PvT expand that I learned, but I haven't really experienced any terrans attempting to marine scv all in me after my nexus starts. I think the forge fast expand is the least effective kind of expand because its delaying your tech and the Terran could just rush a drop in your main and you will have fewer units to deal with it. Just my opinion on the forge fast expand against Terran. |
| | The world can go fuck itself. I'm not taking out my headphones. |
|
|
| leveller Sweden. July 01 2012 10:46. Posts 1814 | Profile Blog # |
I go for the huk nexus at 20 but I always pre-make a zealot in the gate. Two reasons; one, it looks as if Im making a zealot (and saving chrono) so maybe i can trick terran into thinking Im 4 gating. Two if I see he starts to block me (but less likely he will cos of fake zealot) i just let him finish.
Other methods are maybe better but I like the normal warpgate timing and early nexus! |
| | Fan of Morrow, White-Ra, Thorzain, MC, July, Tasteless and Psy. |
|
|
| meepkeN United States. July 01 2012 11:27. Posts 52 | Profile # |
I'm more of a fan of MC's 1Gate FE, mostly because that's what I'm used to. A zealot+stalker poke would be really good after your scouting probe too, as it'll help you see if he's going for a 1base play or expanding. Basically, I open as if I'm going for my standard PvT unless I scout something different with my zealot/stalker. From there I decide if I go for an expand or another two gates/robo.
On a side note, I never found FFE to be good against terran. I've seen it done but to me I feel like I don't have any actual units to defend, just like NoisyNinja said. |
|
|
| leveller Sweden. July 01 2012 11:44. Posts 1814 | Profile Blog # |
I don't know why anyone would think FFE would be a good idea vs terran
User was warned for this post |
| | Fan of Morrow, White-Ra, Thorzain, MC, July, Tasteless and Psy. |
|
|
| -eXalt United States. July 01 2012 11:50. Posts 456 | Profile Blog # |
On July 01 2012 11:27 meepkeN wrote:
I'm more of a fan of MC's 1Gate FE, mostly because that's what I'm used to. A zealot+stalker poke would be really good after your scouting probe too, as it'll help you see if he's going for a 1base play or expanding. Basically, I open as if I'm going for my standard PvT unless I scout something different with my zealot/stalker. From there I decide if I go for an expand or another two gates/robo.
On a side note, I never found FFE to be good against terran. I've seen it done but to me I feel like I don't have any actual units to defend, just like NoisyNinja said.
I stopped using that build quite a while ago because the nexus is so late compared to some other builds, although it's great for lower levels of play. But getting a nexus <24 supply compared to the 29-30 that MC's does, can boost your in game timings (gas's, forges, twilight, etc) by 30 or so seconds just because of the extra econ, making it that much easier to defend the stim/medivac aggression that will come at 10:00-10:30. |
|
|
| Zealos United Kingdom. July 01 2012 12:28. Posts 1744 | Profile Blog # |
| I 100% always go nex first versus terran, then either forge + cannon if they haven't got gas, or a gateway with chrono if they have. Masters Toss Eu |
| | Stupid questions are better than stupid mistakes. |
|
|
| TC_Beynbio Norway. July 01 2012 12:41. Posts 65 | Profile Blog # |
| Sometimes it's kinda hard for me to choose from taking a nexus first or 1 gate FE because of those terran aggression, but then if i scout terran at the right time, then i know what to do. =) |
| | i have a great idea for a username on any site: pootis spencer |
|
|
| AC3 Canada. July 01 2012 12:48. Posts 274 | Profile # |
I've been using Squirtle's 2 gas PvT opening he used in the ro32 this GSL. Artosis wrote up a description of it on his blog http://scdojo.tumblr.com/
It gets out 2 ranged units before the expansion is thrown down, and with the 2 gas you can really put the Terran in the dark as to your FE, or any other build you choose at that point.Last edit: 2012-07-01 12:52:26 |
| | Raise a glass to mend all the broken hearts of all my wrecked up friends ||| NonY : HuK : HerO : iNcontroL : Parting : MC : Genius ||| |
|
|
| Drowsy United States. July 01 2012 12:50. Posts 4826 | Profile Blog # |
| Huk FE with the zealot. Cancel if you scout gasless and have an unobstructed probe at your nat, keep it if one of those 2 things isn't true. |
| | Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us. |
|
|
 Random_Guy09 Canada. July 01 2012 12:52. Posts 800 | Profile # |
On July 01 2012 12:48 AC3 wrote:I've been using Squirtles 2 gas PvT opening he used in the ro32 this GSL. Artosis wrote up a description of it on his blog http://scdojo.tumblr.com/It gets out 2 ranged units before the expansion is thrown down, and with the 2 gas you can really put the Terran in the dark as to your FE, or any other build you choose at that point.
Best opening I've seen so far its pretty awesome :D Especially going from that to his 2 base colossi timing. |
| | Grubby|Liquid`HerO|ST_Squirtle|ST_PartinG|CreatorPrime Na'Vi |
|
|
| etherealfall Australia. July 01 2012 13:27. Posts 393 | Profile # |
| I MC FE if i scout 2 rax, otherwise I do a middle of the road 24-26 supply FE. |
|
|
| darkness Bulgaria. July 01 2012 13:52. Posts 2670 | Profile Blog # |
| I like ST.Parting's build because it's better than gasless FE from terran. I don't like to play from behind if it's 1 gate zealot-stalker-stalker exp. |
|
|
| Ikris July 01 2012 13:58. Posts 19 | Profile # |
| As a lower league toss (I know, I know) should I even bother to deviate from the three gate Robo into expand? I'd love to try learning the huk style opening. |
|
|
| VictorJones United States. July 01 2012 14:06. Posts 235 | Profile Blog # |
On July 01 2012 13:58 Ikris wrote:
As a lower league toss (I know, I know) should I even bother to deviate from the three gate Robo into expand? I'd love to try learning the huk style opening.
Nothing to it but to do it. Definitely worth it. You can hold any/ all legit cheese with a safe FE opening if you can execute it so it's worth learning how to execute as at the higher levels 3 gate robo into expand isn't really great at all. Also, it's more fun to expand because the game becomes more varied with more resources 
Regarding the OP:
I feel like there's a reason Parting (one of the best PvT still even though he's been largely figured out because of MVP) uses the weird gateway nexus core build he uses. Squirtle seems to like it on certain maps as well. I don't dare doubt them. |
|
|
| P7GAB Canada. July 01 2012 14:06. Posts 391 | Profile # |
| yes you shouldn't do the three gate robo expand unless your getting 3raxed and are unconfident in your micro Last edit: 2012-07-01 14:06:59 |
|
|
| blooblooblahblah Australia. July 01 2012 14:36. Posts 2718 | Profile # |
On July 01 2012 10:28 NoisyNinja wrote:
I prefer my zealot stalker then nexus expand because that's the PvT expand that I learned, but I haven't really experienced any terrans attempting to marine scv all in me after my nexus starts. I think the forge fast expand is the least effective kind of expand because its delaying your tech and the Terran could just rush a drop in your main and you will have fewer units to deal with it. Just my opinion on the forge fast expand against Terran.
From what i've seen and heard from players like Axlav, you only make the forge if they're gasless . If they take gas, u just do the standard Nexus > Gateway build. The FFE has also changed a little bit since it was first debuted in the GSL, koreans often make the gateway anyway before the forge against gasless. Unfortunately, i don't really know the timings of the build since i generally prefer to 1gate FE. |
| | Ganzi beat me without stim. Ostojiy beat me with a nydus. Siphonn beat me with probes. Revival beat my sentry-immortal all-in. |
|
|
| Zeppelin535 Canada. July 01 2012 14:38. Posts 201 | Profile # |
| I love Parting's FE. Comes out ahead of 1 Rax FE and is still quite safe vs any marine+scv all-ins with that early gate. Only troubles I have are vs. marauder+hellion or basically any sort of proxy rush involving marauders. On that note, anyone have suggestions for defending those? |
| | Grandmaster Protoss - Member of Clarity Academy | claritygaming.com | @Clarity_Gaming | @ClarityBones | twitch.tv/zeppelin535 | |
|
|
| Ikris July 01 2012 14:39. Posts 19 | Profile # |
| Luckily the Terrans I play against haven't yet figured out the appropriate timings for their 3 rax, so I have some time to really hone in and perfect a fe |
|
|
| bluegarfield July 01 2012 14:56. Posts 133 | Profile # |
i think you have to take into consideration the map as well. different builds are more suitable on different maps.
in my opinion, bigger 2 players map like daybreak or those 4players map, early nexus is better because you can still get your stuff out in time to defend, while in smaller map like shakuras, MC's style looks much better because you can get your nexus up safely while having opportunity to pressure your opponent expansion as well with the initial zealot stalkers |
|
|
| 1 2 Next All |
|
Store
