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| inbox24 Australia. July 01 2012 19:13. Posts 162 | Profile Blog # |
Hey guys,
Over the past 2 weeks I've been really trying to work on my macro and I'm finding I still can't get out of gold league. Every game I go for a 1 rax fe, keep unspent below 300/300 most of the game (unless maxed, or for a few seconds here and now when being harassed). With most of my gold league opponents I lose to, I find that they are on 2 base for pretty much the whole game, floating 1k/1k when they get to about 100 supply and and then floating up to 3k/3k when they hit 150-200. Additionally I lead them in supply by between 50-100 until the last engagement which I lose. Admittedly I do get supply blocked 1-2 times per game but that's mostly after 120+ supply is reached.
I thought Gold league and below was just make units and A move to victory. I'm even using a semi-proper build order (marine - tank - medievac). What is wrong with me?
I've included some replays where I've lost, and the last one where I won.
http://drop.sc/210887
http://drop.sc/210885
http://drop.sc/210886
http://drop.sc/210884
Last edit: 2012-07-01 19:36:46 |
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| zezamer Finland. July 01 2012 19:24. Posts 1805 | Profile # |
| post your replays on some legit replay site please |
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| inbox24 Australia. July 01 2012 19:27. Posts 162 | Profile Blog # |
| Which ones are there that don't require any registration? |
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| zezamer Finland. July 01 2012 19:32. Posts 1805 | Profile # | |
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| inbox24 Australia. July 01 2012 19:36. Posts 162 | Profile Blog # | |
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| naggerNZ New Zealand. July 01 2012 19:39. Posts 700 | Profile # |
Try http://www.drop.sc
I watched the first replay. You say you kept your resources low, but you were floating 1k gas at the 10 minute mark. That is a lot of gas that could have been invested in upgrades (+1, stim, combat shields, concussive, anything).
Also, your third was extremely late. You went up to 70 harvesters before even starting your third CC. Your opponent was also on two base but stopped at 50 probes. So you had 1k minerals and 20 supply invested in workers which weren't providing you with any extra income.
You also went pure marine/tank/medivac against chargelot/colossus/high templar. That is perhaps the hardest counter composition in the game. Also, you had 17 medivacs when you pushed out. What is the point? That is a huge amount of resources and supply in dead units, as his units do way too much DPS for your medivacs to actually heal your army mid engagement. Marine/tank is not a viable unit composition against colossus and high templar barring very specific situations which only will arise at a very high level. Stick to Marine/Marauder/Medivac and your macro advantage might mean something. Your unit control was very poor, but I think at Gold level that's a given.
Also, SQ is a totally arbitrary and meaningless scale. People are just going to think you're a joke if you put it in a strategy thread title. |
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| inbox24 Australia. July 01 2012 19:46. Posts 162 | Profile Blog # |
| Hmm, sounds like there are some big problems with the macro still, disappointing. Looks like I have to go back to grinding out a few more hundred games against the AI. What is the optimal number of medievacs to have generally? |
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| naggerNZ New Zealand. July 01 2012 19:53. Posts 700 | Profile # |
No you misunderstood my point. Grinding games against AI isn't going to solve anything. It's not that you macro was bad, it was just wrong. You have to make a point of putting a third CC somewhere into your build, or else you need to stop making workers at 50.
The main reason you lost was because you used a terrible, terrible unit composition. Also, start scanning his main for tech. That is far more important at your level than mules. I'd sooner recommend spending ALL your OC energy on scans, than being hard, hard countered like that in unit composition.
Just get Marine/Marauder/Medivac, and as soon as you see a Robotics Support Bay (you know, the building that enables Colossus production), start viking production.
As far as medivac numbers go, with marine/tank/medivac, there is no point in having a lot as a few swipes of a colossus will just rip your army to shreds. With marauders in your composition, which are a lot beefier, medivacs can heal efficiently during engagements. I would say a maxed MMM army should have about 10-12 medivacs. |
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| zezamer Finland. July 01 2012 19:54. Posts 1805 | Profile # |
TvZ on shakuras, the won game
You should move out way before you are maxed, after you have marine ups, medivacs, siege tanks you should be trying to apply pressure to him via dropping or straight up pushes to clear creep, deny his expansions, secure your own expos etc, you had double his supply for really long period off the game. You jus were making the game much harder for yourself by not being aggressive and letting your opponents do silly things like greater spire @ 120 supply 
When you're on creep you should constantly scan to kill the creep tumors because denying creep spread is super important and the tumors give him vision where your army is and you will get caught unsieged really easily.
Your macro was really good till you started moving out. Try to keep on expanding and adding production facilities when you're out on the map. Upgrades were little slow. Key things from that game is to try to be more aggressive earlier and remember to scan when on creep.Last edit: 2012-07-01 19:57:15 |
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| Mowr Sweden. July 01 2012 19:56. Posts 752 | Profile # |
I watched but Cloud Kingdom game. I don't know why you included that since it had nothing to do with what you wrote in the post. The zerg did a big ling/bling all-in off two bases and you didn't wall off.
As for scouting, make hellions and have them active and you would have spotted no third and a suspicious amount of speedlings. |
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| Nimix France. July 01 2012 20:01. Posts 382 | Profile # |
| You can't just macro and move out when you're maxed as terran, you will die to AOE even against opponents that macro worse than you, just because it is the way bio is. You should check filtersc's tutorials on youtube (there is a thread on tl for them too), and learn the proper BO for playing bio with a timing push at 10mn. |
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| inbox24 Australia. July 01 2012 20:10. Posts 162 | Profile Blog # |
OK, so here's what I'm reading:
- Start the third command centre at the 10 minute mark and then land and saturate at the 13 minute mark.
- Stop producing SCVs at 70
- Be tighter with my upgrades and possibly invest in a timing attack with key upgrades such as stim/combat shield/concussive shell, and key units such as medievacs at the 10-11 minute mark
- Build Vikings! (incidently I've played over 300 team and single games and I've only ever built 1-2 Vikings in total lol)
I have a few questions though. When should I scout/scan for the possibility of a Robotics Support Structure? Is it 2 Vikings per colossus? How do I divide my energy between scans and mules when playing TvZ so that I can take down creep tumours? If I'm going for a third base and performing the MMM build, I should add 3 barracks and 1 reactored starport right? For the marine tank build, it's 2 barracks and 2 factories right?
I don't really know why I added the Cloud Kingdom game. |
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| zezamer Finland. July 01 2012 20:25. Posts 1805 | Profile # |
TvT on taldarim
Your opening looks solid except you forgot combat shields for a while.
@13 mins
Your opponent does some aggression and does huge blunders. It's important to realize that you're way a head and use your advantage while you have it. You could have a-moved your army into his nat till 15mins and secured the victory.
You don't have enough production for 3 bases. You want to be able to build at least 10 marines and 2 siege tanks per cycle, and medivacs till you have 10-14. You absolutely need to get upgrades faster. Go double engibay when you're starting your 3rd CC or expanding there and keep upgrading till you're 3-3. Marine upgrades are super important in TvT when playing marine tank vs marine tank.
@ 16mins
188 vs 115 supply, you a-move into a choke and lose your army. Correct way to play that attack would have been to siege his natural from low ground to deny mining and drop marines and couple siege tanks to the high ground, it would have been impossible to break with his army. You need to know on how many bases your opponent is, send couple marines to around the map the look for his 3rd/4th, hidden bases etc. Finding his 3rd and shutting down his natural would have been gg.
Keep on expanding and adding production facilities while your attacking.
@18mins you still could have won the game by lifting your 4th CC to your 4th and saccing your 3rd base. He didn't have enough units to break your natural if you played defensive instead of trying to break his tank line at your third. You have way too many medivacs for a marine tank player. 10-14 is ok
Key things : upgrades, realize when you're a head and be aggressive earlier instead of letting him rebuild army, don't a-move into chokes/siegetank lines, upgrades,Last edit: 2012-07-01 20:30:05 |
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| Sianos July 01 2012 20:30. Posts 528 | Profile # |
1) 9-10 minutes is a good timing to look for collo or ht.
Collo: just 3 gateways and or robo
HT: more than 3 gateways and or twilight council / templar archive and or charge upgrade ( if you have a zealot in your scan range click on it and you see whether it has charge or not)
2) You need 3 vikings per collo ( Viking = 2 supply, Collo = 6 Supply), 1 ghost per ht, 2 ghosts per archon
3) 1# Just attack when a key upgrade is done 2# allways safe scans before you attack and continue muling when your attack is done
4) The standard way is to go for 3 rax into starport with mmm aggainst Protoss. But there are also builds who go for fast 4 rax ( aggainst double gas builds) or 3 rax into starport + 2 rax when starport is building (Bomber style) aggainst 1 gate fe
5) The standard timing to start your 3rd base is between 11:00 and 11:30.
6) Try to keep your medivac count between 6 and 8 Medivacs. Last edit: 2012-07-01 20:33:51 |
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| Math.random(); July 01 2012 20:45. Posts 316 | Profile # |
After having watched you replay on daybreak (http://drop.sc/210884 last one on your list), I think you need to change your unit composition a bit, because marines are more vulnerable versus storm&collossi and tanks didn't really support your army, thus I'd build more marauders instead of tanks. In addition when you see collossi you should make vikings, you didn't need som many medivacs.
So I'd change the tvp build in this way, if you want to go MMM which I recommend.
- earlier bunker, then add another one or even a third one (you had quite good lead in worker count)
- get earlier stim -> before factory
- mix in marauders
- add 4th&5th barracks earlier or get a fast 3rd and add them later
- less medivacs, more vikings if you see collossi on the field
Or try this build http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340714
The build is not very strong against collossi openings, but I think you have the macro and therefore it shouldn't matter at the moment.Last edit: 2012-07-01 20:46:49 |
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| inbox24 Australia. July 01 2012 21:08. Posts 162 | Profile Blog # |
Alright guys, you've convinced me. I will go with MMM with Vikings against toss now on. I honestly don't have enough APM to micro as of yet and definitely not enough to use EMPs at the moment (I thought macro and A clicking was all you needed at Diamond and below anyway?) So then is this a good build order:
- 1 Barracks expand
- First addon on barracks is tech lab and stim started at 100 gas
- Second and third addons as soon as gas is available
- Next 100 gas goes to factory, after factory is started take 3rd gas at natural
- Add 4th and 5th barracks at the 80-90 supply mark?
- Scan for colossus at the 9-10 minute mark
- Make a 3rd command centre in base
- Start double engineering bay, add an armory when both are done
- Add 3 more barracks and a starport when command centre is half done
About the game on Tal'darim Altar, how could I have won that game without doing what zezamer suggested because I think sieging the natural and elevatoring tanks and marines into his natural would take away too much APM from my macro. |
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| Plethora United States. July 01 2012 21:08. Posts 206 | Profile # |
I don't have anything particular to add strategy-wise that hasn't been mentioned already. But I did want to say that Filter's thread on this very forum helped me a ton.
I'm a mid-high plat Terran and I muddled around in Gold for a long time before finally getting over the hump. I've always been much more of a macro player like you seem to be, and once I started following Filter's thread I went through a phase where I basically won every game I played that went beyond like 12 minutes. At first I would lose to all-ins pretty much all the time but let me tell you from experience that once you have some solid benchmarks and unit compositions, its a lot easier to develop the gamesense to know when something is fishy and defend properly than it is when you just kinda randomly make units and are always doing different things from game to game. |
| | ... Still like Brood War better... lol |
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 lorkac United States. July 01 2012 21:21. Posts 2297 | Profile Blog # |
I've watched all the games.
You don't scout, like at all. And no, sending your scvs as a peace offering to your opponent is not scouting. But I don't just mean in the early game. Throughout the game you should be scouting. You never know where your opponent's army is, or even if he does have an army. The one game you won you could have won in a route if you simply attacked!
Shakuras, TvZ, you were at 100+ supply and zerg was at 50ish. Zerg decided to mass expand and tech--hard. So instead of going off to kill him, you sat at your nat, then sat on his creep, and only when zerg knew full and well what you had did you push forward having given zerg all the time in the world to make dudes against your push. The only reason you won was because zerg decided to make broodlords as his "oh shit terran is at my expo" units. If had been making ling/bane after you lose your tanks it would have been a hold for him with him having 4 bases still.
On Tal Darim you didn't have dudes at your third even though you were planning on taking it. You don't have anyone at the watch tower which would have let you know when he was coming from the front allowing you to safely kill the rocks (which you needed to do since you were already trying to get there) and if you had done that his drop wouldn't have made it since you would have seen it.
But let's not bother with that. I'd like to give the best example of you not scouting.
You scanned his ramp, saw tanks on the cliff. He sends a bunch of scvs at your army for whatever reason. Instead of going "well, i've done economic damage from my opponent giving away scvs, and I know his tanks are at the cliff of the ramp so it would be suicide to go in, and he's already lost his first two attacks... I should pull back, hold the watchtower, keep a viking or two 3 O'Clock incase he does medivac shenanigans and then expand myself. Instead of doing that you instead decide to run face first into a siege tank line, uphill, both ways, in the snow? Why?
Want another silly although it didn't kill you scouting response? Daybreak. Protoss is at your front. Your surrounding your bunker with SCVs. In the middle of this you decide to.... build an engineering bay... Now I know upgrades are important, and in the end he didn't break your bunker, he simply went around your bunker since you only had one. If you had built a second bunker above your command center instead of building an engineering bay below your command center, it would have meant that he didn't chase away your scvs.
Now you also didn't scout for a third, or the natural to see what your opponent was making. Mostly marine army with no Vikings vs collosus? Lets assume that your decision to hit the main instead of checking for a third to hit was the smart choice, you didn't even take a peak at what he had and realized that "oh man, he's just on two base, I can be more defensive and build Vikings to stop the collosus because he can't do tech switch shenanigans off two bases" instead you decide to try running up a ramp filled with meat shields and aoe. Which is not much different from your tal darim loss.
Fighting with your eyes closed is a bad thing. You don't need perfect information. I don't expect you to send out an SCV and predict his build order. Simple things like "what does he have at his natural" or "are his tech buildings in the middle of his main?" or "Did he build a third base or is he about to attack soon?"
Also, defensive scouting. Keeping a marine standing about at a possible counterattack path to give you time to react. Keeping a marine/scv at his third to see if he's expanding there or not. (If he's not expanding there when you are expanding there, chances are that he will attack you soon) Holding watch towers, etc...
Doing things like that will help a lot with letting you know if he is coming for you or not. It's not much information, but its simple math really.
If he is expanding a lot, he will not attack me. If he is on two base, I run dudes in his natural and scan his main. If he is teching a lot, he won't have dudes. If he is not teching a lot, he will have a lot of production to maximize the timing attack. I he has a big ass army either at his natural or his main--then he is about to attack.
The only race specific thing to look out for is that zerg will be grabbing 4rths/secret thirds more often than Terran or Toss--but that's a metagame thing that I might be wrong on. |
| | By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography |
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| inbox24 Australia. July 01 2012 21:22. Posts 162 | Profile Blog # |
On July 01 2012 21:08 Plethora wrote:
I don't have anything particular to add strategy-wise that hasn't been mentioned already. But I did want to say that Filter's thread on this very forum helped me a ton.
I'm a mid-high plat Terran and I muddled around in Gold for a long time before finally getting over the hump. I've always been much more of a macro player like you seem to be, and once I started following Filter's thread I went through a phase where I basically won every game I played that went beyond like 12 minutes. At first I would lose to all-ins pretty much all the time but let me tell you from experience that once you have some solid benchmarks and unit compositions, its a lot easier to develop the gamesense to know when something is fishy and defend properly than it is when you just kinda randomly make units and are always doing different things from game to game.
I get what you mean about randomly making units, which is why I've been trying to get the 1 rax fe down pat, but it seems like I need a lot more practise on that build before I can reach pretty much the required benchmarks every single game. How long did it take for you to transition from Gold to Platinum? |
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| lorkac United States. July 01 2012 21:26. Posts 2297 | Profile Blog # |
On July 01 2012 21:08 inbox24 wrote:
Alright guys, you've convinced me. I will go with MMM with Vikings against toss now on. I honestly don't have enough APM to micro as of yet and definitely not enough to use EMPs at the moment (I thought macro and A clicking was all you needed at Diamond and below anyway?) So then is this a good build order:
- 1 Barracks expand
- First addon on barracks is tech lab and stim started at 100 gas
- Second and third addons as soon as gas is available
- Next 100 gas goes to factory, after factory is started take 3rd gas at natural
- Add 4th and 5th barracks at the 80-90 supply mark?
- Scan for colossus at the 9-10 minute mark
- Make a 3rd command centre in base
- Start double engineering bay, add an armory when both are done
- Add 3 more barracks and a starport when command centre is half done
About the game on Tal'darim Altar, how could I have won that game without doing what zezamer suggested because I think sieging the natural and elevatoring tanks and marines into his natural would take away too much APM from my macro.
Don't be so specific with the whole "MMM+Vikings against toss now"
If you scanned his base and ran dudes into his natural, you would have either seen an army whose unit comp you could counter (such as Vikings vs Collosi) or you would have seen a shit tonne of gateways (no collosi) or templar tech (2~ collosi at most) or Collosus tech (Crank out the Vikings)
The micro isn't that important so long as you know what the opponent is doing/has.
All those bench marks you listed are VERY VERY good to have, and you should go after it because you're going to need them more later. But in most of your games you should have won and could have won doing what you were already doing--but you weren't scouting. |
| | By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography |
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