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| mrdombie United Kingdom. July 01 2012 19:26. Posts 29 | Profile # |
Hi TL!,
A little background, i'm Dom to my friends and just a lowly Terran diamond. I play SC like the rest of us however when it comes to watching replays, I'll watch them in the bucket loads and I've decided that i'm going to start reporting some of my observations
Its been such a long time since I've seen anything from the TvT i'd thought I would add something to the discussion board.
Back in the days it was common to see some sort of gas opening vs a one rax fe, however through evolution of the meta game 1 rax fe is becoming a more dominant and popular build ending up with two players both choosing and then apply some version of it
With correct scouting and knowledge of Terran builds you can generally safely know what is coming in one form or another. So what is the danger of delaying your rax, taking a fast third and continuing on as usual (or maybe not into a such a usual build i.e. mass rax for those tricky timing pushes.) Is it because of contains that we are unable to do so? Or because there just is no real advantage to it
I'd appreciate views in a constructive way.
Thanks
Dom |
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| Espy Australia. July 01 2012 23:05. Posts 26 | Profile # |
Simply put, your opponent will have twice/thrice the amount of marines as you at the completion of your 3 raxes after your initial 2 CCs. He will simply a move and overrun you, if not, lets say you fortified your natural with bunkers, he'll simply drop you later on and do double pronged attacks since he'll most likely get faster Medivacs than you.
Your opponent also will have greater upgrades, CS and Stim while you may only finish CS and not Stim nor +1s by the time of this double medivac aggression.
The economic lead of your third CC is however at the cost of less efficient and number of marines which means you WILL die if your opponent plays his cards correctly.
Imagine a case of where 20 unupgraded CS marines vs 20 marines with CS, Stim and Medivac. You of course will have an economic lead through mules and more scvs, but at this point nothing can save you from the sheer efficiency of your opponent's marines.Last edit: 2012-07-01 23:09:37 |
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| Chaggi Korea (South). July 01 2012 23:32. Posts 1090 | Profile # |
basically what he said ^
I think if you take a fast 3rd, you're gonna need to go mech, have tanks out, and have vikings/turrets to make sure no drops come. |
| | University of Michigan '10 Alumni |
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| CluEleSs_UK United Kingdom. July 02 2012 00:16. Posts 580 | Profile Blog # |
| Both guys above are wrong. With 1 bunker you can hold your natural fine early on. Later, you will need turrets to stop yourself getting killed by marine elevator strats. If you go up to 4 or 5 rax after your 3rd orbital, you should be totally fine. |
| | "If it turns out he is leaving the ESL to focus on cooking crystal meth I'll agree that it is somewhat disgraceful, but I'll hold off judgement until then." |
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| Chaggi Korea (South). July 02 2012 22:37. Posts 1090 | Profile # |
On July 02 2012 00:16 CluEleSs_UK wrote:
Both guys above are wrong. With 1 bunker you can hold your natural fine early on. Later, you will need turrets to stop yourself getting killed by marine elevator strats. If you go up to 4 or 5 rax after your 3rd orbital, you should be totally fine.
I'd love to see a bunker and some turrets hold my medivac drops with cs/stim/+1 at 9:30~
he's gonna be so far behind |
| | University of Michigan '10 Alumni |
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| Saiton Sweden. July 02 2012 23:06. Posts 455 | Profile Blog # |
On July 02 2012 22:37 Chaggi wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 00:16 CluEleSs_UK wrote:
Both guys above are wrong. With 1 bunker you can hold your natural fine early on. Later, you will need turrets to stop yourself getting killed by marine elevator strats. If you go up to 4 or 5 rax after your 3rd orbital, you should be totally fine.
I'd love to see a bunker and some turrets hold my medivac drops with cs/stim/+1 at 9:30~ he's gonna be so far behind
...Wait what?
Please show me a replay where you finish this at 9:30 outside his ledge. Assuming a 1 rax FE there's just no chance you're going to have this so early. |
| | Platinum Terran streaming 1v1 at http://www.twitch.tv/propsaiton |
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| Sianos July 02 2012 23:17. Posts 528 | Profile # |
1) You can´t completly secure your base with turrets until 9:30 minutes. If he micros correctly he´ll find a spot to attack and do some damage. Sure you may be able to hold the first drops, but it will be really hard for you to hold the follow up pushes, because of 2.
2) When doing a fast 3rd cc and adding more than 3 rax you delay your tech a very long time. Which means your opponent will have earlier and more medivacs and earlier upgrades and earlier tanks, if he want´s to go for tanks. To defend aggainst this you can´t take your 3rd for quite some time so you will basically stay with 3 OC´s on 2 base, which means that your main and natrual will be almost mined out until you take your 3rd, which means that you have to take your 4th shortly after. If the opponent plays his cards correctly, you will not be able to get away with a fast 3rd OC. And by playing correctly i mean denying your 3rd and 4th from beeing taken. Remeber he will have earlier tanks than you and a stronger army overall, which means he just needs to deny your 3rd/4th and take his own.
3) You completly give the mapcontrol to your opponent, which means he can do whatever he wants and you will not notice it until it´s too late.Last edit: 2012-07-02 23:18:52 |
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| owlofhell July 02 2012 23:30. Posts 17 | Profile # |
Playing fast third cc in tvt doesnt feel right for me. I never tried it, but heres just a couple of conserns:
Even if we assume that your opponent will be doing 1 rax FE, you still will have a LOT less production and army by the point of midgame engagment. This strategy can work in TvP and TvZ, mainly because most protoss and zerg plan for the lategame, and you will have enough time for your delayed production to kick in. IN TvT tho, most engagements happens fairly early. Even with FE most terrans like to move out aroun 10-11 minute mark, and by that time you will barely have you production in place.
All the vital tech will be delayed severly (400 mins at that point is really much). I am talking about stim, cc, siege tech. That last one really might be the problem, since you won't even ahve enough marines to hold him off until your siege is done. To be honset, i barely hold fast siege off 1 base, while i FE (i usually have to pull scvs and break contain failry early - i'm only plat tho, so i might be doing something wrong). I can't imagine you holding off 2-3 tanks and 16-20 marines with stim/medivac support, when you in the best case scenario have stim and 1 tank with no siege. Also, as you quite correctly mentioned, terran can scout each other quite easily, so he will know about your fast 3rd, and i don't see what will stop him from killing you.
Of course, i didn't check anything, maybe this strat is plausible to play. I just don't think its really worth it, since nowadays tvt is so concentrated on eraly/mid game agression. |
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| Espy Australia. July 02 2012 23:41. Posts 26 | Profile # |
On July 02 2012 00:16 CluEleSs_UK wrote:
Both guys above are wrong. With 1 bunker you can hold your natural fine early on. Later, you will need turrets to stop yourself getting killed by marine elevator strats. If you go up to 4 or 5 rax after your 3rd orbital, you should be totally fine.
Let's say you have bunkers and turrets stopping any elevator drops, what on earth are you going to do when i literally sit at your third with tanks? If you reply with "marine elevator" on your behalf, what is stopping me from having that epic turret placement of yours that denies drops hence trapping you on three base until I saturate my own third?
There would almost always be holes between turrets where one can drop you and if you've built enough turrets to fill those holes as well, the economic advantage you gained is minimised including your lost map control into those extra turrets, allowing the opponent to expand and catch up and further deny ur 3rd/4th as said by Sianos.
Last edit: 2012-07-02 23:42:22 |
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| Shady Sands United States. July 03 2012 00:26. Posts 3592 | Profile Blog # |
| This strategic choice is more map-dependent than most others in TvT. For example, on Antiga this might not be a good idea, since mains are fairly easily droppable, ground pathing from 3rd to main is awkward, and getting medivacs out quickly lets you secure your third pretty quick anyhow. However on Entombed this would likely be a good choice, since you can place marines, turrets, and a wall-off in such a way to deny any 2-base timing pressure off a 1-rax FE. |
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| nath United States. July 03 2012 00:33. Posts 1315 | Profile Blog # |
On July 02 2012 23:06 prOpSaiton wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 22:37 Chaggi wrote:
On July 02 2012 00:16 CluEleSs_UK wrote:
Both guys above are wrong. With 1 bunker you can hold your natural fine early on. Later, you will need turrets to stop yourself getting killed by marine elevator strats. If you go up to 4 or 5 rax after your 3rd orbital, you should be totally fine.
I'd love to see a bunker and some turrets hold my medivac drops with cs/stim/+1 at 9:30~ he's gonna be so far behind
...Wait what? Please show me a replay where you finish this at 9:30 outside his ledge. Assuming a 1 rax FE there's just no chance you're going to have this so early.
hes just bluffing |
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