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| mahi29 United States. July 02 2012 07:22. Posts 235 | Profile # |
***This is a repost of my earlier thread that got closed because I forgot analysis. I have the analysis this time in the spoiler tags***
Hey TL,
I just switched to Zerg after playing Protoss for the last couple years. I'm in plat right now and I just started laddering as Zerg a couple days ago. And for some reason, I've been cheesed over 60% of my games - its ridiculous how much cheese I've faced compared to my experiences as Protoss. But anyway, my issue is that I don't know how to deal with that. As toss, after so many games, I know what I have to do to hold of proxy gates, 6 pools, cannon rushes etc. Might not work, but I know what I did wrong.
However as Zerg, I literally have no idea what the correct response is and so I lose all my games against it. If you guys can watch the replays and just tell me what you would have done in my stead, that would be greatly appreciated.
Cannon Rush- Ohana
Analysis:
+ Show Spoiler +I missed the pylon he put up until it finished. At that point, he started getting cannons up. I tried using spines to take his cannons down - but lost 2 needlessly. Though my cannons stopped the advance of his cannons - I was effectively contained in my base with mass cannons and with a 1 base eco - the few roaches I made were useless. Also lost a few roaches taking down a pylon unnecessarily. Other than not letting the pylon up, I don't know how I would stop this. I could have proxied a hatch sooner and tried to win that way, but forgot about it until too late.
6 pool - Entombed Valley
Analysis:
+ Show Spoiler +As soon I saw the rush, I pulled drones to buy time. When his lings started attacking my pool, I let them to buy time to get more lings out to combat. I held off his initial rush but my pool was down to about 25%. Additional waves of lings simply killed my pool and at that point it was basically game over. Maybe I shouldn't have let my pool take so much damage and also put it behind my minerals for better protection? Also learn how to micro drones against a 6 pool?
Proxy 2 Gate - Ohana
Analysis:
+ Show Spoiler +I held off his first 2 zealots with a spine and some lings. However I let my hatch finish and that promptly got killed by the reinforcement zealots. Don't let it finish? After that, about 20 lings of mine trade for his 4-5 zealots. I see he's expanded and I double expand myself without killing his gates - which was stupid of me. However I hold off his additional zealots and now I have 3 base - but with no tech. I lose to a massive gateway push.
I don't know how I should have reacted to the proxy gates better, other than scouting it sooner with either a drone or ovie. Even then, what is the correct response?
Proxy 2 Rax- Daybreak
Analysis:
+ Show Spoiler +I scouted the rax with my overlord but I didn't know what the response should be. I let my hatch finish - mistake?. I stop his bunker on the high ground but in an effort to stop losing my nat, I attack with whatever lings and queens I have and they all die. Seriously, I never realized how weak lings are individually. Anyway, I lose my nat but kill his bunker. However the marines simply walk up and kill me. I've seen MMA and Boxer do this to Leenock at an MLG a long time ago and Leenock abandoned his natural and got banelings and broke the contain that way. Is that the correct response? When I scouted the rax, I was like "what now, I have no idea how to react."
Macro Game - ZvP Cloud
Analysis:
+ Show Spoiler +Missed a couple injects here and there that probably hurt. I tend to get supply blocked a lot because of the fact that larvae make overlords - not used to it. Also, my creep spread down the left side of the map was pretty horrid and I had no map vision so his attacks were unnoticed til the last second. Also, I completely forgot my ups - a mistake probably from not knowing the game plan for the matchup well enough. But I find myself often floating a lot of minerals but not a lot of gas. Like at one point in this game, I had 2.8K minerals and 200 gas. How do I avoid such a situation? Macro hatches? And also I'm not sure how fast/quickly I should be expanding [esp with my 4th].
If you guys would comment on the Macro game on Cloud, that would be cool, but I'm really lost in how to deal with cheese, however.
PS. I asked this in the SQSA and didn't get a response, but hopefully I'll get one here. As Protoss, I loved watching Axslav's stream because he would commentate and explain his thought process and decision making, Super useful for people who are trying to learn. Is there someone like that for Zerg - a decently high level streamer who commentates and explains his gameplay? Someone suggested ROOTFitzy as one, in my previous thread, before it got closed.
Anyway, thanks TLLast edit: 2012-07-02 08:40:06 |
| | The mind is its own place, and in it self Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. |
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| luuk Austria. July 02 2012 07:44. Posts 381 | Profile # | |
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| shadesoul Canada. July 02 2012 08:11. Posts 1 | Profile # |
Hi mahi29,
I'm just diamond so my advices might not be top quality :D
First, let's assume you drone scout around 10 to 14. If you don't, you won't see cheese coming.
Then let's assume you scout 2 things : gases and ramps.
Let's say P or T doesn't have gas or a wall when your drone scouts, you're most probably getting cheesed.
From there, don't panic!
Now just think for a moment, cheese is designed to attack really early. So, the oppodent will be at it's peek "attack force power" while you'll basically have no forces at all.
The key to victory, in my opinion, is to delay your response until you have at least equal forces or more forces.
Sending you first 2-6 lings won't help you at all. That would just prevent you from ever having enough forces.
Try to estimate the moment when your forces will arrive. You have to do a "defensive timing push".
Most likely, your first round of lings, even with a Queen, won't be enough. Send everything you've got!
At this stage of the game, drone are almost as effective as your lings so send use them to defend.
When you feel you have enough forces, grab everything drones included and strike back.
Of course, if you can, mineral path your wounded drones back to mining. Losing a few drones at this stage of the game is not that bad, especially if you defend the cheese. You'll most likely be economicaly ahead.
Let's say the oppodent tries to confine you in your base, eg pylon + canon on your ramp or triple bunker on the ramp.
Delay your response even more. Get roaches or banes and wait for the ideal timing to strike back.
If you go too early, your defense will be crushed and you'll lose. Go too late and he will be ahead economically.
You have to find the exact moment you need to attack. That comes with experience, of course, but you can already think of a few key moments : when your first round of lings arrives, when your first queen pops, when you get 5-7 roaches, etc.
Sorry if the advices seemed too general, I couldn't watch the replay. If you want, I'd be happy to practice a few cheese defense with you, I can play random at about plat level.
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| | macro > micro > macro > micro > macro |
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| uraza July 02 2012 08:31. Posts 34 | Profile # |
I usually just put my second overlord at my natural to see cannon rushes. If they block my ramp, I go a one base play with roaches probably. It depends if they just make 1 cannon or many. But if they block your ramp you are at a large disadvantage, that is why in tournaments there is a supply depot at the ramps to prevent this.
Against proxy 2 gate, you have to scout it, else you're dead if you go 15 pool expand. If you scout it, make lings from there on and make a spine at main base.
Against 2 rax you have to pull drones to stop the bunker from getting up. Around 6-8 drones I say. Just send them to mine at expansion until he starts with bunker. |
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| mahi29 United States. July 02 2012 08:38. Posts 235 | Profile # |
On July 02 2012 07:44 luuk wrote:
where are the replays?
Ahh, my bad. Forgot to upload them. Sorry. They're up now. |
| | The mind is its own place, and in it self Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. |
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 Mavvie Canada. July 02 2012 08:58. Posts 850 | Profile Blog # |
You can't beat a mass ling 6pool by making lings of your own. One of Belial's guides explains this, but here it is:
He has enough drones to make lings from ALL his larvae after his pool pops. In ZvZ, both players get the same amount of larvae, no matter how many drones you have (neither of you have queens!). Therefore, since he started making lings LONG before you, you will NEVER catch up (until a queen's inject pops). As a result, you use drones to get the lings off your pool. Once it finishes, throw down 1-2 spines IN YOUR MINERAL LINE. Then make some lings + a queen. Use mineral walking to make sure the spines don't get killed! Once you have spines + queen, it's GG. I'm not sure how to follow up, but I'd say get gas for ling speed + bling nest, and go into midgame with a MASSIVE lead haha. I recommend reading belial's "how to stop a 6 pool" guide, it covers every variation possible.
Glhf! |
| | Mavvie.439 ~ 2500+MMR [HOTS] Masters Zerg on NA ~ part of Bronze 3v3 team uwu ~ Feel free to add me to play some games ~~ Hyunstoppable? |
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| rintah027 United States. July 02 2012 09:10. Posts 1 | Profile # |
| Vs cannon rush, if you notice the pylon too late and he starts dropping cannons, use your queen to spread creep so your mineral line is safe. put down a crawler or two to stop the zeelot push the cheeser will try while putting up more cannons. and fast tech to mutas. 9 out of 10 times the toss will have left his base exposed and undefended going all in on the rush. at this point, kill all probes/nexus and its gg at that point. Last edit: 2012-07-02 09:11:54 |
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| Clarity_nl Netherlands. July 02 2012 09:14. Posts 3283 | Profile # |
On July 02 2012 08:58 Mavvie wrote:
You can't beat a mass ling 6pool by making lings of your own. One of Belial's guides explains this, but here it is:
He has enough drones to make lings from ALL his larvae after his pool pops. In ZvZ, both players get the same amount of larvae, no matter how many drones you have (neither of you have queens!). Therefore, since he started making lings LONG before you, you will NEVER catch up (until a queen's inject pops). As a result, you use drones to get the lings off your pool. Once it finishes, throw down 1-2 spines IN YOUR MINERAL LINE. Then make some lings + a queen. Use mineral walking to make sure the spines don't get killed! Once you have spines + queen, it's GG. I'm not sure how to follow up, but I'd say get gas for ling speed + bling nest, and go into midgame with a MASSIVE lead haha. I recommend reading belial's "how to stop a 6 pool" guide, it covers every variation possible.
Glhf!
I want to point out you don't want to throw down a spine unless it's actually a 6 or 7 pool. Otherwise you give your opponent a chance to transition out of it. Generally your queen is enough help to hold off 8+ pools, unless it's with drone pull.
edit: big props to OP for not giving up after his thread got closed, you have a nice post there and I hope you get the responses you're looking for. In general it's knowing how to react to certain stuff ^^ other times (like the cannon rush) it's simply a scouting thing.Last edit: 2012-07-02 09:15:49 |
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| Mavvie Canada. July 02 2012 09:27. Posts 850 | Profile Blog # |
| On a sidenote, how do you stop a cannon rush cost effectively? It's commonplace for P to throw up a pylon to block your expo, and nothing is stopping them from throwing down 4 cannons at once. Even if you pull every drone, he can just cancel and you lose so much mining time. If you don't pull enough, you're stuck on 1base. How do you react to mass cannon? |
| | Mavvie.439 ~ 2500+MMR [HOTS] Masters Zerg on NA ~ part of Bronze 3v3 team uwu ~ Feel free to add me to play some games ~~ Hyunstoppable? |
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| mahi29 United States. July 02 2012 09:43. Posts 235 | Profile # |
On July 02 2012 08:58 Mavvie wrote:
You can't beat a mass ling 6pool by making lings of your own. One of Belial's guides explains this, but here it is:
He has enough drones to make lings from ALL his larvae after his pool pops. In ZvZ, both players get the same amount of larvae, no matter how many drones you have (neither of you have queens!). Therefore, since he started making lings LONG before you, you will NEVER catch up (until a queen's inject pops). As a result, you use drones to get the lings off your pool. Once it finishes, throw down 1-2 spines IN YOUR MINERAL LINE. Then make some lings + a queen. Use mineral walking to make sure the spines don't get killed! Once you have spines + queen, it's GG. I'm not sure how to follow up, but I'd say get gas for ling speed + bling nest, and go into midgame with a MASSIVE lead haha. I recommend reading belial's "how to stop a 6 pool" guide, it covers every variation possible.
Glhf!
That guide is super awesome. Thanks a lot for mentioning it. I'll be reading that to get the 6 pool down. Thanks :D |
| | The mind is its own place, and in it self Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. |
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| mahi29 United States. July 02 2012 09:45. Posts 235 | Profile # |
On July 02 2012 09:10 rintah027 wrote:
Vs cannon rush, if you notice the pylon too late and he starts dropping cannons, use your queen to spread creep so your mineral line is safe. put down a crawler or two to stop the zeelot push the cheeser will try while putting up more cannons. and fast tech to mutas. 9 out of 10 times the toss will have left his base exposed and undefended going all in on the rush. at this point, kill all probes/nexus and its gg at that point.
Muta off 1 base? I fail to see how a protoss can be caught unawares from that. Even if he did - by the time I get mutas, he should have more than enough stalkers to simply repel them, even if completely surprised. |
| | The mind is its own place, and in it self Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. |
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| mahi29 United States. July 02 2012 09:47. Posts 235 | Profile # |
On July 02 2012 09:14 Clarity_nl wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 08:58 Mavvie wrote:
You can't beat a mass ling 6pool by making lings of your own. One of Belial's guides explains this, but here it is:
He has enough drones to make lings from ALL his larvae after his pool pops. In ZvZ, both players get the same amount of larvae, no matter how many drones you have (neither of you have queens!). Therefore, since he started making lings LONG before you, you will NEVER catch up (until a queen's inject pops). As a result, you use drones to get the lings off your pool. Once it finishes, throw down 1-2 spines IN YOUR MINERAL LINE. Then make some lings + a queen. Use mineral walking to make sure the spines don't get killed! Once you have spines + queen, it's GG. I'm not sure how to follow up, but I'd say get gas for ling speed + bling nest, and go into midgame with a MASSIVE lead haha. I recommend reading belial's "how to stop a 6 pool" guide, it covers every variation possible.
Glhf!
I want to point out you don't want to throw down a spine unless it's actually a 6 or 7 pool. Otherwise you give your opponent a chance to transition out of it. Generally your queen is enough help to hold off 8+ pools, unless it's with drone pull. edit: big props to OP for not giving up after his thread got closed, you have a nice post there and I hope you get the responses you're looking for. In general it's knowing how to react to certain stuff ^^ other times (like the cannon rush) it's simply a scouting thing.
haha, thanks. Yeah, I just want to know what the correct response to the situations is. If I lose a macro game - anything where I get 2-3 bases without some cheese - I can usually find flaws in my play that lead to my loss. However for proxies and cannon rushes and the like, it feels like you need to know what the correct response is and just do it. I learned those for toss by watching a lot of games and listening to a lot of commentary. I'm trying to see if I can speed that up with Zerg  |
| | The mind is its own place, and in it self Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. |
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| Clarity_nl Netherlands. July 02 2012 10:04. Posts 3283 | Profile # |
On July 02 2012 09:45 mahi29 wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 09:10 rintah027 wrote:
Vs cannon rush, if you notice the pylon too late and he starts dropping cannons, use your queen to spread creep so your mineral line is safe. put down a crawler or two to stop the zeelot push the cheeser will try while putting up more cannons. and fast tech to mutas. 9 out of 10 times the toss will have left his base exposed and undefended going all in on the rush. at this point, kill all probes/nexus and its gg at that point.
Muta off 1 base? I fail to see how a protoss can be caught unawares from that. Even if he did - by the time I get mutas, he should have more than enough stalkers to simply repel them, even if completely surprised.
To be fair you have lost if you're stuck on 1 base as zerg. The best attempt to win for me is a hydra/ling/nydus play. Get both your gasses the moment it's apparant you are stuck on 1 base. make sure to get a spine to deny any scouting. Prepare 2 overlords to find a spot to nydus.
First 100 gas into speed, second 100 gas into lair.
Once lair finishes drop hydra den and slightly later a nydus worm, if you can afford it make additional queens (you should have 22 drones, 16 on minerals 6 on gas).
Use all your gas on hydras, save the gas needed to nydus twice. Use leftover minerals on lings, bring your queens.
If your nydus finishes you should win, but your nydus shouldn't finish inside his base unless he messed up. Second nydus should be at his front.
Good luck ^^ |
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| HyDr0iD Australia. July 02 2012 10:48. Posts 8 | Profile # |
On July 02 2012 09:27 Mavvie wrote:
On a sidenote, how do you stop a cannon rush cost effectively? It's commonplace for P to throw up a pylon to block your expo, and nothing is stopping them from throwing down 4 cannons at once. Even if you pull every drone, he can just cancel and you lose so much mining time. If you don't pull enough, you're stuck on 1base. How do you react to mass cannon?
What kind of opener do you do against protoss? If you go 14 pool 16 hatch your pool should be finished or almost finished by the time they can afford a pylon + 4 cannons. That way you can pull drones to force him to cancel, then you use 2-4 lings to prevent any further cannons from being placed.
4 Cannons + a Pylon is 700 minerals investment which is quite a significant delay to the protoss player's economy/tech too. Theoretically you should be able to invest 700 minerals into your own defense and still be on even ground if the cannons finish. If you pull drones and he cancels then he still loses 150 minerals which justifies your lost mining time. Then there's also the pylon that finished which can be killed once your first lings pop increasing his total mineral loss to 250 without ever having a cannon kill any units. Ontop of this, against a forge fast expand you can usually grab your first expand in your 3rd because you will be wanting a fast 3rd anyway. Then once you have killed the pylon in your natural you can take your 3rd there. |
| | "Winning is everything, that losing isn't." |
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| Spec Taiwan. July 02 2012 13:38. Posts 739 | Profile Blog # |
| I just want to say that I am sorry you have to endure so much cheese. Hey, it's all for the better in the end. |
| | Eye for an eye make the world go blind - Ghandi |
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| Grubbegrabbn Sweden. July 02 2012 14:06. Posts 148 | Profile # |
On July 02 2012 10:04 Clarity_nl wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 09:45 mahi29 wrote:
On July 02 2012 09:10 rintah027 wrote:
Vs cannon rush, if you notice the pylon too late and he starts dropping cannons, use your queen to spread creep so your mineral line is safe. put down a crawler or two to stop the zeelot push the cheeser will try while putting up more cannons. and fast tech to mutas. 9 out of 10 times the toss will have left his base exposed and undefended going all in on the rush. at this point, kill all probes/nexus and its gg at that point.
Muta off 1 base? I fail to see how a protoss can be caught unawares from that. Even if he did - by the time I get mutas, he should have more than enough stalkers to simply repel them, even if completely surprised.
To be fair you have lost if you're stuck on 1 base as zerg. The best attempt to win for me is a hydra/ling/nydus play. Get both your gasses the moment it's apparant you are stuck on 1 base. make sure to get a spine to deny any scouting. Prepare 2 overlords to find a spot to nydus. First 100 gas into speed, second 100 gas into lair. Once lair finishes drop hydra den and slightly later a nydus worm, if you can afford it make additional queens (you should have 22 drones, 16 on minerals 6 on gas). Use all your gas on hydras, save the gas needed to nydus twice. Use leftover minerals on lings, bring your queens. If your nydus finishes you should win, but your nydus shouldn't finish inside his base unless he messed up. Second nydus should be at his front. Good luck ^^
Thank you, thank you, that is golden. I always wondered what would be the correct answer/best strat for an (unlikely) comeback from this,
2 gates: In my lowly league I hold it off with 3 spines and drones. Then I chase him out with 2 queens, creep and leapfrog spines. I always get 2 gas and tech up since you really want a lair and some better tech in the event he just makes 6-8 initial zealots and then goes straight for voids/DTs or some shitz like that. Its also a bonus to be able to just bling bust if he tries a really late forge expo to catch up....
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| mahi29 United States. July 02 2012 14:11. Posts 235 | Profile # |
On July 02 2012 13:38 Spec wrote:
I just want to say that I am sorry you have to endure so much cheese. Hey, it's all for the better in the end.
I don't mind cheese that much. I look at it like, once I know how to respond, 95% of the time, its a easy win for me. When I played toss, I loved it when I scouted a proxy gate/rax, defend that and then you are so far ahead, you can simply cruise to victory. So I'm trying to learn how to defend it as Zerg, so its the same. |
| | The mind is its own place, and in it self Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. |
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| mahi29 United States. July 02 2012 14:12. Posts 235 | Profile # |
On July 02 2012 10:04 Clarity_nl wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 09:45 mahi29 wrote:
On July 02 2012 09:10 rintah027 wrote:
Vs cannon rush, if you notice the pylon too late and he starts dropping cannons, use your queen to spread creep so your mineral line is safe. put down a crawler or two to stop the zeelot push the cheeser will try while putting up more cannons. and fast tech to mutas. 9 out of 10 times the toss will have left his base exposed and undefended going all in on the rush. at this point, kill all probes/nexus and its gg at that point.
Muta off 1 base? I fail to see how a protoss can be caught unawares from that. Even if he did - by the time I get mutas, he should have more than enough stalkers to simply repel them, even if completely surprised.
To be fair you have lost if you're stuck on 1 base as zerg. The best attempt to win for me is a hydra/ling/nydus play. Get both your gasses the moment it's apparant you are stuck on 1 base. make sure to get a spine to deny any scouting. Prepare 2 overlords to find a spot to nydus. First 100 gas into speed, second 100 gas into lair. Once lair finishes drop hydra den and slightly later a nydus worm, if you can afford it make additional queens (you should have 22 drones, 16 on minerals 6 on gas). Use all your gas on hydras, save the gas needed to nydus twice. Use leftover minerals on lings, bring your queens. If your nydus finishes you should win, but your nydus shouldn't finish inside his base unless he messed up. Second nydus should be at his front. Good luck ^^
This is brilliant. Thanks a lot - I'll keep it in mind next time I'm in this unlikely situation
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| | The mind is its own place, and in it self Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. |
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| BoxingKangaroo Japan. July 02 2012 15:00. Posts 803 | Profile Blog # |
OK, I watched the 2 rax game.
1. You didn't scout. Send a drone at 10 supply to the enemies base. If you don't see a rax, somethings up.
2. Your overlord spotted two scv's travelling across the map. Big giveaway for 2 rax. Couldn't tell if you reacted to this or not.
3. You threw away too many units trying to break the bunker. You'll learn what you can and can't break with practice, but in this case you simply shouldn't have gone down the ramp.
Here's what I do when I scout proxy 2 rax:
1. Plant a creep tumour and 1 or 2 spine crawlers.
2. Stop mining gas.
3. Pump lings.
4. Get an extra queen. Both for tankiness and creep tumours/injects.
4. Move the crawlers up to the edge of the high ground for free bunker shots.
5. Run-by some lings to the enemies base for scv kills.
Disclaimer: mid diamond advice |
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| mahi29 United States. July 02 2012 15:12. Posts 235 | Profile # |
On July 02 2012 15:00 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
OK, I watched the 2 rax game.
1. You didn't scout. Send a drone at 10 supply to the enemies base. If you don't see a rax, somethings up.
2. Your overlord spotted two scv's travelling across the map. Big giveaway for 2 rax. Couldn't tell if you reacted to this or not.
3. You threw away too many units trying to break the bunker. You'll learn what you can and can't break with practice, but in this case you simply shouldn't have gone down the ramp.
Here's what I do when I scout proxy 2 rax:
1. Plant a creep tumour and 1 or 2 spine crawlers.
2. Stop mining gas.
3. Pump lings.
4. Get an extra queen. Both for tankiness and creep tumours/injects.
4. Move the crawlers up to the edge of the high ground for free bunker shots.
5. Run-by some lings to the enemies base for scv kills.
Disclaimer: mid diamond advice
Actually I spotted one of the barracks that he planted, but didn't know how to react appropriately other than make lings. But regardless, thanks. Quick question, should I cancel my nat or let it finish in that situation?Last edit: 2012-07-02 15:13:34 |
| | The mind is its own place, and in it self Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. |
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