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| Phye July 02 2012 17:14. Posts 19 | Profile Blog # |
Hey all, long time lurker here decided to contribute for once. I am a mid-high masters terran player on NA (currently ranked 7) and as of late, like all terrans, I have been struggling with my TvZ. I've been doing a gimmicky opening that has moderately high chances to give the terran an early lead, which is the only way that I'm aware of to win a long TvZ at the moment.
I open with 9depot/9scout/11rax and automatically block the zerg's natural with an engineering bay (7scout/9debot/11rax on four players maps), I then rally the SCV back to my base when the bay is almost done. The typical zerg response to a natural block, conditioned by ZvP, is to take his expansion at his third's location and that is exactly what you want him to do. If he just makes a pool and wait for his natural to be cleared to expand then you're not really advanced (you delayed his expo, yay!) and will have to play a standard TvZ. Some zergs will just throw down a pool first and then take their expansion at the third so watch for that
I follow up with a tiny bit delayed hellion-expand build. When he takes his expansion at his third, it creates a wider path between his bases. It also makes it way harder for him to block movement to his main and impossible to block movement to his expansion. Now, this is when hellions become really powerful and run-bys become possible. Dual 4 hellions attacks (main and base) are particularly powerful. I personally keep making mostly hellions and some marines until I see a roach warren or a lair and then go for classic marine tank medivac. When I first move out with my hellions, I bring a scv and hide it near his third, for hellion repairs, very useful. The amount of hellions you make and your follow-up is all personal preference though. Sure the queen change made this strategy a bit harder but it is still worth doing in my case. Before the queen change, this strategy always made my TvZ's easier and I had a pretty good win rate against zergs.
Not saying this strategy will revolutionize the matchup but it's cheezy and fun. Makes hellion play enjoyable. English isn't my mother tongue so bear with me.
Edit: derp grammarLast edit: 2012-07-02 17:21:42 |
| | http://i.imgur.com/LowEa.jpg |
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| Chicken Chaser United States. July 02 2012 17:33. Posts 513 | Profile # |
| Can you post some replays? |
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| Walitgon Australia. July 02 2012 17:34. Posts 542 | Profile # |
| As zerg I can tell you ebay block is massively underrated. That much of a delay on your nat is enormous. The day this becomes standard is the day I cry QQ TT all day err day |
| | BRB laddering ^_^ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
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| Bearwidme Australia. July 02 2012 17:36. Posts 57 | Profile # |
| I would think the majority of masters level players would know to put down a pool and just clear the eng bay and play out as normal, which makes you even, probably behind on 4 player maps. It seems very gimiky to rely on a mistake being made by the zerg as a build. |
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| NoNonsense Malaysia. July 02 2012 17:45. Posts 25 | Profile # |
SEA High Z Master player here. Once you throw down your ebay, or even a supply depot for that matter, you are 100-125 mineral behind on your build, that's like 15 sec delay? My response, pool gas, and expand after my queen and lings are out.
Once that's done, you will be in trouble as i can - do any kind of bust (which would be earlier than a 15 hatch build, since i got my pool earlier). or just drone for a macro game as usual.
Your build becomes delayed due to the initial ebay, and is further delayed because u will NOT be able to scout me without a scan and will have to react accordingly with earlier defenses.
I'm not convinced the block pays for itself at all. |
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| Walitgon Australia. July 02 2012 17:54. Posts 542 | Profile # |
On July 02 2012 17:45 NoNonsense wrote:
SEA High Z Master player here. Once you throw down your ebay, or even a supply depot for that matter, you are 100-125 mineral behind on your build, that's like 15 sec delay? My response, pool gas, and expand after my queen and lings are out.
SEA Z GM player here. 15 second delay on his CC is nothing compared to the 1:00+ minute that you wait in order to get your queen and lings out which denies your expo timing enormously, which delays your larva, which delays your eco.
Ebay block is srs business.
Instead of getting a 15 hatch, it's a pool first, and I'm not sure, but I'm guessing it's going to be like a 22 hatch at least... |
| | BRB laddering ^_^ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
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| Mentalizor Denmark. July 02 2012 17:57. Posts 1525 | Profile # |
Why 9 depot instead of 10?
This seems inspired by the PvZ pylon block. Will you also potentially bunker "rush" the 3rd? Or is it "just" a matter of spreading him out before hitting him with hellions?
Also... Any maps better than others? I can imagine cloud kingdom and maybe Daybreak being pretty good for this strategy
Edit:
On July 02 2012 17:36 Bearwidme wrote:
I would think the majority of masters level players would know to put down a pool and just clear the eng bay and play out as normal, which makes you even, probably behind on 4 player maps. It seems very gimiky to rely on a mistake being made by the zerg as a build.
That's how I feel PvZ is atmLast edit: 2012-07-02 18:23:31 |
| | (yಠ,ಠ)y - Y U NO ALL IN? - rtsAlaran: " I somehow sit inside the bus.Hot_Bit giving me a massage" |
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| Phye July 02 2012 19:47. Posts 19 | Profile Blog # |
On July 02 2012 17:45 NoNonsense wrote:
SEA High Z Master player here. Once you throw down your ebay, or even a supply depot for that matter, you are 100-125 mineral behind on your build, that's like 15 sec delay? My response, pool gas, and expand after my queen and lings are out.
Once that's done, you will be in trouble as i can - do any kind of bust (which would be earlier than a 15 hatch build, since i got my pool earlier). or just drone for a macro game as usual.
Your build becomes delayed due to the initial ebay, and is further delayed because u will NOT be able to scout me without a scan and will have to react accordingly with earlier defenses.
I'm not convinced the block pays for itself at all.
I have hellions out. I am actually able to scout you as much as in a typical game, even more. Being 125 minerals behind isnt that big of a deal. The scv would be out scouting anyway plus your expo is 1-2 mins late even more if you wait for a couple queens before going down your ramp. Youd be surprised at the amount of zergs that dont reply the way you would do. By experience, trust me ive been doing this for a long time, a majority of zergs will take their expo at another location.Last edit: 2012-07-02 19:53:31 |
| | http://i.imgur.com/LowEa.jpg |
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| Phye July 02 2012 19:49. Posts 19 | Profile Blog # |
| ;( Phone's quote and edit buttons are too close to each other. Last edit: 2012-07-02 19:56:04 |
| | http://i.imgur.com/LowEa.jpg |
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| nucLeaRTV Romania. July 02 2012 19:53. Posts 721 | Profile # |
| I do this pretty often (1 in 2 games) and if they try to expand to 3rd, i'll just 4 rax it and then exapnd after I kill the 3rd. |
| | "Having your own haters means you are famous" |
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 GeNeSiDe United Kingdom. July 02 2012 19:54. Posts 354 | Profile Blog # |
You don't finish the eBay so minerals lost will only be like 50. 1 scv of cost definately is worth all the stated benefits of blocking the Z expansiOn. This used to be done regularly in beta/early release until the pool first builds became more popular and the block started failing to pay for itself!
Also if you follow up with a hard timing like marauder helion, mm stim etc, it would be very likely that you can punish a Zerg who eithe takes the third base in response and goes for a quick third at their NAT, or one who builds 4 lings, kills your bay and then drones up to make up for lost time.
I also like that it punishes hatch first; no other race can go blind 15 expand with no workers scout and be as relatively safe as Zerg is, seems like a good way to punish IMO.
Anything that gets Z out their comfort zone is a win for me! |
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| SpaceFighting New Zealand. July 02 2012 20:11. Posts 681 | Profile # |
On July 02 2012 17:54 Walitgon wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 17:45 NoNonsense wrote:
SEA High Z Master player here. Once you throw down your ebay, or even a supply depot for that matter, you are 100-125 mineral behind on your build, that's like 15 sec delay? My response, pool gas, and expand after my queen and lings are out.
SEA Z GM player here. 15 second delay on his CC is nothing compared to the 1:00+ minute that you wait in order to get your queen and lings out which denies your expo timing enormously, which delays your larva, which delays your eco. Ebay block is srs business. Instead of getting a 15 hatch, it's a pool first, and I'm not sure, but I'm guessing it's going to be like a 22 hatch at least...
SEA Z masters here... this is attracting alot of Z SEA masters+ aint it?
anyway i agree with this... sure the terran will be delayed, but think of how much shit thats delayed on ur part.. assuming u throw the pool down on reaction to the ebay.. ur pretty far behind in terms of economy in the early game. this ebay block shit is pretty fucking good.
taking ur early expo is not even viable.. because of what OP said, its just to difficult, and on some maps... most maps, u wont even connect the creep to ur 3rd in time. |
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| Maxilicious July 02 2012 20:12. Posts 138 | Profile # |
| Even if you do want to block the natural of the Zerg, the Ebay should not complete. It should be almost complete and be cancelled when the Zerg almost destroy it. |
| | http://terrancraft.wordpress.com/ |
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| gronnelg Norway. July 02 2012 21:52. Posts 306 | Profile # |
This might be a stupid question...
As a zerg response, would 15 htach at the natural, but at a macrohatch location be viable as a response?
Assuming the positioning of the e-bay allows, putting the hatch adjacent to were you would normally put it?
That way you'll have creep at the natural at a normal time to defend potential follow aggression, you'll have normal lavrae count, and you can still get some extra income from the natural, waiting for the regular natural hatch to go up...
Thoughts?
Edit: Haha! I like how the very next post just happens to be one advocating my idea  Last edit: 2012-07-02 22:01:23 |
| | Lulzez || My stream: http://www.twitch.tv/gronnelg |
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| kiklion July 02 2012 21:56. Posts 97 | Profile # |
Beyond the hellion follow up, another that I have seen was a delayed 2 rax. Without creep spread the marines tear apart all slow lings. Zerg can go fast third, but still without the creep spread will die to plain marines. Zerg can go gas/pool and expand with speed, but this is much more delayed than an expo from terran after a 2 rax. Any bust will be tight on larva as you have been on one base the whole time.
My go to response has been to make a macro hatch at my natural. It is map dependent, but making the macro hatch at the natural in a place such that the hatch is part off a future wall off/choke allows you to get creep at the natural, keeps you isolated in one corner for easy defense, and you can medium distance mine the minerals there still. Then ASAP I plant another hatch in the normal location for more efficient mining. I do usually delay the second queen (instead of spending minerals on the queen for larva I spend it on another hatch for larva) but the engi bay block I believe delays any banshee timing enough that it doesn't matter. |
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| monk United States. July 03 2012 03:34. Posts 6993 | Profile Blog # |
| Please read strategy forum guidelines. If you want to make a [D] topic, please add a replay, as what you're saying is just theory-craft right now and it's really hard for people to discuss it without really seeing what you're talking about. I'll leave this open for now and add a tag. |
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| Th1rdEye United States. July 03 2012 04:07. Posts 810 | Profile Blog # |
To deal with the ebay, you just pull 3 drones and attack the scv asap. Then work on the ebay.
Meanwhile, throw down your pool first at 15ish or whatever you're at...
You will be able to expand quite quickly because the 3 drones and their dps will kill the ebay fast, and scv cant build with 3 drones attacking it.
So really, you lost a little mining time but you get your natural up faster, before zerglings even.
You could even pull just 1 drone to stop the scvs, honestly, and let it attack.. still would be faster than doing nothing and letting ebay nearly finish and wait for lings.
Taking your third is pointless vs this.. just an over reaction and could potentially make you die.Last edit: 2012-07-03 04:08:30 |
| | high masters (NA,EU,KR) zerg stream: http://www.twitch.tv/galaxyzerg ! |
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| TyrionSC2 United States. July 03 2012 04:32. Posts 254 | Profile # |
This is kind of bad unless the zerg has no idea how to respond.
I've always found these builds to be free wins.
Zerg can make a macro hatch then pool, then make hatch at nat and continue as usual. The only difference is his mining will be slightly delayed, however his production will still be great.
Taking 3rd instead of nat is the worst possible reaction because if the terran follows with a reaper bunker then you lose your base there too.Last edit: 2012-07-03 04:33:40 |
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| PeanutsNJam United States. July 03 2012 04:54. Posts 175 | Profile # |
| How well would a baneling bust all-in work in response to this? (macro hatch at nat to fake the terran into thinking you'll expand) |
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