[H] What is happening in my TvZ? What is this?

Im totally lost in TvZ now. I play in DIAMOND league As everyone has propably experienced pressuring zerg and hellion openings are not so worthy so i tend to go full on macro. So fast 3rd is pretty much my weapon of choice now.

But i die to these ridiculous tech rolls i have no idea what to do. I fell like my opponent does nothing as i drop and try to take map control and try to react to their techs but still i lose. I have gotten MUCH spoonier because the patch. I feel like if i do timing push on 2 base zerg can just see it too easily whit creep and mapcontrol and if i try some funky timings, still whit map control zerg should be ready by the time i arrive. And i'm no all in guy, as i do not get any joy out of it.

It upsets me so much when i know these Z are not so good and try not their ass off as i do and still they just win. Ladder is pretty much all about TvZ now, so i need to make some sense in this. I feel like i die in lategame to zerg prod. cycles. As if i had 15 rax and 4 facts 3 staports still i tend to die. I have no idea why this is happening.

I win usually the first trades (including t3 unit battles), but still somehow he wins trough production cycles. If im out of position etc.

I am really noob, but still i got decent micro for player who doesnt play that much,
In the past i did always use reactor hellion and as i could pressure i was okay, but now im so lost.

Here is me to losing to ultralisks in Daybreak
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=266529

Here is me losing to Blord to mass infestor ling transition (basetrade) I cripple hes whole economy (drops), in other words he has no economy, still i manage to lose by basetrade.

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=266530#/replay_overview

And here is me winning (rolling) on some opponent who tried something funky
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=266531

Pre-patch i had no problems, and never faced Platinum players. Now im constantly losing to them aswell, as i cant deny their third. Please help me. Every bit helps!

I do not do builds by sheet, and execute them specific way. It just doesnt matter in diamond or lower leagues. It can help, but it doesn't really matter.

Last edit: 2012-07-04 09:35:40

♞live like a windrammer as you fuck ♞

Viter Denmark. July 08 2012 08:12. Posts 22

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Hey

The problem lies in your "lategame transition".

You are lacking upgrades (biggest problem imo), and floating alot of minerals (why aren't you building a SHITLOAD of rax?

)
You also need to get a good lategame transition, the zerg gets to tier 3 and you need to get some other units other than marine tank.

Also you aren't scouting (atleast not on the antiga shipyard game) and are doing some horrible position decisions.

I would say that you just need to spam raxes so you can reinforce + get better upgrades

Sepi Finland. July 09 2012 05:03. Posts 177

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On July 08 2012 08:12 Viter wrote:
Hey

The problem lies in your "lategame transition".

You are lacking upgrades (biggest problem imo), and floating alot of minerals (why aren't you building a SHITLOAD of rax?

Your right, I have started to win TvZ again though vs diamonds. I was very rusty on those games, but still i have similiar problems though. I pretty much can defend all all-ins by zergs because they are pretty bad in diamond level and afterwards its easy to crush Z. Against good infestor control im kinda fucked.

I manage to beat zergs whit my superior micro (trading cost efficently and transitioning to anti infestor-blord), but in big maps like entombed or daybreak gives still me lot of problems. When i cant deny 4th base and creep (when im doing really fast 3rd cc), it just can get to a state that he defends hes bases well, denying my drops and harrasment, as i try to keep up on macro and ups, but still i get demolished in 5-6 base play on zerg, even that i would beat his blord infestor army he can defend whit lings my counter and then try to gather his gglord army once again.

Also in that antiga game i didnt need to do scouting, i knew that lords were coming, but the lategame desicions, where i tried to trap the infestors were horrible and that cost me the game overall.

But im getting a grip on it, im still a bit lost on the fundementals, so any tips are welcome though (:

Last edit: 2012-07-09 05:04:32

♞live like a windrammer as you fuck ♞

SuperPro July 09 2012 07:07. Posts 99

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Okay you're actually a really good player. You're just needing a few small adjustments as well as a bit more game sense.

First of all, your opening was a bit awkward. You had 20 marines and 40 scvs at the 10 minute mark. Had you done a better build, like thorzains tvt build, you should have 30ish marines with combat shield and stim done with +1 completed and 2 medivacs. This just shows how much MORE you should have had. You also missed some scvs and got supply blocked so that is a way to improve. You floated a lot of minerals throughout the game, which is an indicator that something is wrong.

The next major flaw was upgrades. Your upgrades were bad. If you're going to turtle as much as you did, you should be researching double ups. By the 20 minute mark you should have had 3-3, but you were barely at 1-2.
Another problem was that you saw ultralisks, but did not make the proper units. You WILL LOSE if you do not make marauders. I am actually shocked that you lost this game, until about the 24 minute mark you were AHEAD.
Another problem is that you BLINDLY made vikings. This didnt really hurt you, but DO NOT do this. IT is very bad. If you have the cash to make 3 cc's at a time, go ahead and put down 3 starports in anticipation of the tech switch.

Mainly what lost you the game was your composition. It all comes down to that. Had you have 20 marauders, you would have held the attack at 24 minutes easily.

You were also very passive. There were times in the game where you could have attacked but chose not to. After defending a push you never attacked. In some instances this can be a bad idea, but in your case I think it would have been a good idea.

The good: You made a bunch of CC's, which is GREAT. You SHOULD be doing this. You also have VERY high apm for your league. There is much more but I am tired of writing. Good luck to you sir.

Also, ironically I have the player "Havoc" added on my friendslist.

JoshFreeman United States. July 09 2012 07:22. Posts 49

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I'm going to second what SuperPro just said- your passivity doesn't help. When you hold an attack, go do damage immediately. Take out that expansion closest to you. All he has after those attacks are speedlings, which tend to facemelt to any amount of upgraded marines.

Double upgrades too! With Z going two Evo so early in every game, you have to scale accordingly!

"Sometimes, I guess there just aren't enough rocks." -Forrest Gump

Ambre France. July 09 2012 08:16. Posts 218

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Master terran here. Didn't read the whole post.

Don't be passive. Your agression with hellion doesn't work ? Try harder.

Personnaly I open 1 racks FE with a gaz on 16. The FE is slightly delayed, but I get the factory faster. The goal is to have hellions (no reactor), one by one, to scout roachs-all in and control zerg watch tower. The first hellion is very important. Even though I don't deny creep like we used to do, hellions are still a viable option for map control.

Meanwhile, I go for a HEAVY 3 racks (2 tech lab, 1 reactor) + hellion army, with +1 attack, stim, combat shield.

The push hist at 10'. Scan scan to kill a lot of creep tumors. Take a third behind that.

It's very safe, macro focused, and you can kill most zerg before 13' with that push.

Edit/ To be more precise, the goal is not to kill the Z with the push. "Worst" case scenario, you delayed the zerg macro, forced him to make a TONS of units / delayed his third ; from that point you will feel on an equal footing with the zerg.

Last edit: 2012-07-09 08:18:58

DySeNTeN Sweden. July 09 2012 08:40. Posts 44

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Take a look at micromancers bio-style guide, I really enjoyed it and I'm definately going to experiment with it. He posted a few replays with it as well here on TL

RoboBob United States. July 09 2012 12:59. Posts 785

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Diamond Terran here. I skimmed through all 3 replays.

You play way too passive. 3 OC into Siege Tank leapfrogging is not a viable strategy anymore. It was good pre-patch because it was easy to deny creep spread with just a handful of Marines or Hellions. But post-patch Zergs will have so much creep that they can easily get Hive before your Tanks threaten anything of value.

If you want to continue going 3 OC then you must transition into drop heavy play immediately. As in when your first 2 Medivacs pop they immediately go to drop opposite sides of the map. You need to pour on the pressure all game long and make sure that neither of you reach 200 supply. Because if you ever let Zerg bank up enough resources for a 130 food tech switch then you going to lose. That's just the nature of Terran production.

Personally I think the best way to deal with lategame TvZ is to not play it at all. There's a lot of 2 base mech timings that are much stronger now that Zergs are focusing more on creep and less on counterattacks. 2 Banshee+1 Raven is a great tool for clearing creep. So are early distance bunkers. And Thors are more useful now that Zergs are making more Queens and less Ling/Crawler for early defense.

You have awesome mechanics and micro for your league. I think with some better build orders you should be masters very soon.

Last edit: 2012-07-09 13:15:42

trbot Canada. July 09 2012 17:24. Posts 142

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In game 2, you missed a pretty big infestor burrow... If you had scanned and shelled all of those infestors to death, the game might still have been yours... you could then macro back up behind a dozen tanks in the bottom right, and drop him to death in the mean time.

Sepi Finland. July 10 2012 02:23. Posts 177

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Thanks for the kind comments for my micro. I have kinda always tought that i have had some kind of master/dia hybrid mechanics, but i have never had the patience to define my builds to the max, and i have always been "on the fly" guy.

What i have started to do is heavy pressure after expand to zergs 3rd. Basically i go like 4 rax after 1rax cc. I can force a BUNCH of lings, deny mining time and in best case snipe his third if this goes mostly unscouted. The walking distances are just so ridicuosly long these days on ladder maps. FE. like ohana i feel like terran has advantage (so easy to play deny 4th game), but other maps like entombed, cloud kingdom, daybreak i feel like Z has always advantage.

I do not aim to end this MU at all cost, ill try to learn its new end-game and see where it takes me.

Upgrades arent my problem, maybe on this reps i lack of them, but usually i go always fast 2 ebays and do them asap, whit vehicle +1.

And i really need to fix that lategame composition. I just feel like im really bad still if Z goes full tech switch, from blords to mass ultraling inf.

But lets see what i can do! I'll chekc out those guides and maybe i finally start doing these builds BY the sheets, and not just impro.

Thank you for your responses!! (=

♞live like a windrammer as you fuck ♞

Clarity_nl Netherlands. July 10 2012 22:59. Posts 3283

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Most of the things have already been said so I'll just say something that takes terran players forever to figure out. ^^
When you win a fight but you lost everything but 8 marines, stim that shit and run forward, you'd be surprised.

More gg, more skill.

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