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| GoSuMali France. July 05 2012 01:08. Posts 173 | Profile # |
Virtus Pro's player, Yaroslav 'NS' Kuznetcov wrote a guide for beginners and even advanced players on how to play support heroes.
Okay, so let’s start. What’s a support hero?
Support is a hero role, which, as it comes for the word itself, implies various kinds of support for the team while dealing with the minimum amount of money, kills and experience. First of all, it’s really important to emphasize that ‘support’ is not a certain hero but a role. We’ll discuss the heroes that suit this role better a little bit later but in theory, every hero might be a support, even heroes such as Shadow Fiend and Bone Fletcher.
As we’ve discussed the definition, let’s proceed to the next question – why would we need a support at the first place? Many new players can’t even understand how it’s possible to play while not farming and killing heroes and why would anyone play a hero that is always short of money, whose level is almost every time the lowest in the game, which is often and easily ganked and that doesn’t really make any kills during the game. It’s ridiculously simple to explain – there’s a certain amount of money in Dota and basically it’s enough for 4 heroes (3 lanes + woods) but not for 5. Moreover, it’s more efficient to have 2-3 farmed heroes rather than 5 and that’s basically why the support role was formed in the world of Dota. A good support is crucial for a decent team and even if you never played competitively, you’ve probably noticed that a good support is extremely useful even in pubs as well-placed wards may make the game way easier to win.
Read more on: http://www.itsgosu.com/game/dota2/articles/learn-how-to-play-support-heroes-with-ns_572 |
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| Highwinds Canada. July 05 2012 09:35. Posts 767 | Profile Blog # |
| Aww I was mislead! I was hoping this was gonna be an epic guide on how to play Night Stalker support, |
| | Yes It's a Good Day. 저는 아이유 사랑해요! |
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| GoSuMali France. July 05 2012 16:02. Posts 173 | Profile # |
On July 05 2012 09:35 Highwinds wrote:
Aww I was mislead! I was hoping this was gonna be an epic guide on how to play Night Stalker support,
haha sorry about that ^^
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| Mr. Wiggles Canada. July 05 2012 16:26. Posts 4694 | Profile Blog # |
On July 05 2012 16:02 GoSuMali wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 09:35 Highwinds wrote:
Aww I was mislead! I was hoping this was gonna be an epic guide on how to play Night Stalker support,
haha sorry about that ^^
I thought it was on how to support a Night Stalker in lane 
I read it though, and it was a pretty cool read. I knew some of it, and learned a couple things. I'll probably show it to my friends who are just getting into the game. |
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| rei United States. July 08 2012 02:27. Posts 2927 | Profile Blog # |
| fuck ya Night stalker for the win. |
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| skipgamer Australia. July 08 2012 03:03. Posts 560 | Profile Blog # |
I hope there are more articles like this, I always play support and while I've noticed in pubs there are a lot more people who know what support is, there can always be even more...
I didn't agree with the heroes he called support though... Tier 1 support imo are cm, vs, lich, aa, shadowpriest, shadow shaman
Oh, and I disagree with his boots > wards statement... wards > boots. I've had wards with no boots that have given my team more chance of a come-back than boots have, that being said there are some situations where I'd go boots over wards.
Last edit: 2012-07-08 03:26:17 |
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| Corr Denmark. July 08 2012 05:54. Posts 529 | Profile # |
On July 08 2012 03:03 skipgamer wrote:
I hope there are more articles like this, I always play support and while I've noticed in pubs there are a lot more people who know what support is, there can always be even more...
I didn't agree with the heroes he called support though... Tier 1 support imo are cm, vs, lich, aa, shadowpriest, shadow shaman
Oh, and I disagree with his boots > wards statement... wards > boots. I've had wards with no boots that have given my team more chance of a come-back than boots have, that being said there are some situations where I'd go boots over wards.
What?
He didn't put support heroes in tiers. He just gave two different categories of common support heroes.
Nor did he state that boots > wards, but rather that support heroes who don't even have a pair of boots by the 10-15 minute are most of the time like playing 4 vs 5. |
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| Nilrem United States. July 08 2012 06:30. Posts 1389 | Profile Blog # |
On July 05 2012 16:26 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 16:02 GoSuMali wrote:
On July 05 2012 09:35 Highwinds wrote:
Aww I was mislead! I was hoping this was gonna be an epic guide on how to play Night Stalker support,
haha sorry about that ^^
I thought it was on how to support a Night Stalker in lane I read it though, and it was a pretty cool read. I knew some of it, and learned a couple things. I'll probably show it to my friends who are just getting into the game.
I did the same thing. I was thinking, perhaps I can get some neat ideas for my friend and I to do. |
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| InternalSync July 08 2012 09:24. Posts 134 | Profile # |
On July 08 2012 03:03 skipgamer wrote:
Oh, and I disagree with his boots > wards statement... wards > boots. I've had wards with no boots that have given my team more chance of a come-back than boots have, that being said there are some situations where I'd go boots over wards.
Well that's precisely why NS has fallen from a top tier to a low tier support player. Wouldn't really take his guide at face value tbh, unless this was a guide written during his DTS/VP(old) era, which obviously it isn't. I refuse to believe that the NS from that time would write such nonsense. He contradicts himself by saying that supports shouldn't get wards if they don't get farm, but then goes on to say that supports should stack and farm neutrals. Riiight.
Having the second set of wards up by the 5:00-5:30 min mark is probably the most important thing a support player should do because most ganks and pushes occur around that time.Having boots on cm will give you no advantage for the team, but having those wards is essential. Watch his games with Darer and VP he almost never buys the 2nd set of wards until well into 8-9 minutes of the game, sometimes even more. That's way too late.
Little math wouldn't hurt his analysis either. Wards disappear after 6 minutes of placing them. Without getting any farm on his hero, not even a single cs, he'd still have 60gpm (gold per minute)*5minutes=300 gold which is enough to buy a 200gold observer ward and place it before the 1st set expires around the 5:30 min mark. Instead of bitching about boots he should play a bit smarter and position himself better which was something I used to value about him a lot back in the days, especially the way he positioned himself with his VS, CM and WD. He was such a pleasure to watch with these 3 heroes.
I realize he needs to spend 220gold on courier upgrade, but then again he should follow his own advice and stack/farm 1 neutral camp, nothing more. Or just ask your teammate that you're protecting to let you have 2 cs to get the wards, I'm sure he wouldn't mind the 100 gold in exchange for feeling safe for the next 6 minutes of the game. If the carry player fails to understand how that 100 gold spent on wards is more significant than 100 gold towards his manta, then you have a retard on your team. |
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| skipgamer Australia. July 08 2012 18:12. Posts 560 | Profile Blog # |
On July 08 2012 09:24 InternalSync wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 03:03 skipgamer wrote:
Oh, and I disagree with his boots > wards statement... wards > boots. I've had wards with no boots that have given my team more chance of a come-back than boots have, that being said there are some situations where I'd go boots over wards.
Having the second set of wards up by the 5:00-5:30 min mark is probably the most important thing a support player should do because most ganks and pushes occur around that time.Having boots on cm will give you no advantage for the team, but having those wards is essential. Watch his games with Darer and VP he almost never buys the 2nd set of wards until well into 8-9 minutes of the game, sometimes even more. That's way too late.
Great advice, you should write a guide, learnt more from reading your reply than the article. |
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| Appendix Sweden. July 08 2012 21:03. Posts 600 | Profile # |
On July 08 2012 09:24 InternalSync wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 03:03 skipgamer wrote:
Oh, and I disagree with his boots > wards statement... wards > boots. I've had wards with no boots that have given my team more chance of a come-back than boots have, that being said there are some situations where I'd go boots over wards.
Well that's precisely why NS has fallen from a top tier to a low tier support player. Wouldn't really take his guide at face value tbh, unless this was a guide written during his DTS/VP(old) era, which obviously it isn't. I refuse to believe that the NS from that time would write such nonsense. He contradicts himself by saying that supports shouldn't get wards if they don't get farm, but then goes on to say that supports should stack and farm neutrals. Riiight. Having the second set of wards up by the 5:00-5:30 min mark is probably the most important thing a support player should do because most ganks and pushes occur around that time.Having boots on cm will give you no advantage for the team, but having those wards is essential. Watch his games with Darer and VP he almost never buys the 2nd set of wards until well into 8-9 minutes of the game, sometimes even more. That's way too late. Little math wouldn't hurt his analysis either. Wards disappear after 6 minutes of placing them. Without getting any farm on his hero, not even a single cs, he'd still have 60gpm (gold per minute)*5minutes=300 gold which is enough to buy a 200gold observer ward and place it before the 1st set expires around the 5:30 min mark. Instead of bitching about boots he should play a bit smarter and position himself better which was something I used to value about him a lot back in the days, especially the way he positioned himself with his VS, CM and WD. He was such a pleasure to watch with these 3 heroes.
I can't answer to your opinions on NSs play, because I haven't followed him but you definitely took things out of his article that I didn't. What you are saying is not untrue, but the guy you respond to talks about wards allowing comebacks, and you start off talking about the 6-minute wards which are very different stages of the game. I agree with you about the second round of wards being some of the most important due to it being the main ganking/roaming phase, especially for popular mid heroes such as pudge, tiny, nightstalker etc, but I interpreted NS article in such a way that you shouldn't neglect the benefit of actually having a few cheap core items such as boots, magic wand and maybe a bracer or two and not blindly go for wards all game long essentially making you a non-factor in later team fights. He is simply fighting what seems to be a popular sentiment that a support not only should not have any farm, but even must not farm. It is not a goal in itself to be gimped as a support player, and NS is definitely not saying you should farm boots before buying any wards whatsoever.
For example, if I'm running around as a completely naked CM vs a Zeus who has gone mid, he would just have to pop his ulti later on and I would be down to low health and practically useless. The way I usually solve this as a support is simply announcing to the team that I need a few things and asking if someone else can buy the next set of wards. Most times you don't have 4 hard carries on your team so it isn't a problem.
Little math wouldn't hurt his analysis either. Wards disappear after 6 minutes of placing them. Without getting any farm on his hero, not even a single cs, he'd still have 60gpm (gold per minute)*5minutes=300 gold which is enough to buy a 200gold observer ward and place it before the 1st set expires around the 5:30 min mark. Instead of bitching about boots he should play a bit smarter and position himself better which was something I used to value about him a lot back in the days, especially the way he positioned himself with his VS, CM and WD. He was such a pleasure to watch with these 3 heroes.
It is 1 gold every 0,8 seconds, so you have 75 gpm automatically. But even then, some games you die or something else don't go as you planned, especially for newer players, which this guide was primarily aimed for.
I realize he needs to spend 220gold on courier upgrade, but then again he should follow his own advice and stack/farm 1 neutral camp, nothing more. Or just ask your teammate that you're protecting to let you have 2 cs to get the wards, I'm sure he wouldn't mind the 100 gold in exchange for feeling safe for the next 6 minutes of the game. If the carry player fails to understand how that 100 gold spent on wards is more significant than 100 gold towards his manta, then you have a retard on your team.
Why not more than 1 stack/pull? Is not the more total farm for your team better? Just don't do it if your babysitee can't farm safely by itself.
The message I think NS is conveying is simply that having wards up at all times, even if it is one of your bigger functions, don't automatically make you a good support and that there are ways to help your teams without going 0-10-0. That you should always consider multiple options even if you are the "ward bitch". |
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| InternalSync July 09 2012 01:40. Posts 134 | Profile # |
I get what you're saying, but do you honestly think that having a magic wand + bracer and boots in the mid game will do any difference when the opponent team decides to take out the supports at the start of a teamfight? I really don't think so. You'd have to have much more than that to survive all the burst damage coming at you.
So it becomes more of a question, is it really worth buying these items, when instead you could be supporting your team with wards? Wards provide map control, which in turn provides safer/smarter play, more farm for everyone and allows your team to get in better position in fights/ganks/pushes. IMO having 1500 gold worth of items on a support hero is negligible in comparison to what the map control can do for your team. Of course this is true only if the support hero has limited gold to spend and has to choose between one or the other, but if he can get both than this is a non issue. Bottom line is, I strongly disagree with any support player who prioritizes items over wards because mapcontrol is something you need to maintain at all times, if you let that slip off your fingers its extremely difficult to get back.
I stand corrected about the gpm, that strengthens my argument even more. Not like we are arguing or something, but .. you know. |
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| Appendix Sweden. July 09 2012 05:09. Posts 600 | Profile # |
Well, it is like everything else in dota, it depends on the situation. Of course the best solution is to gain your team the advantage through good map control with ganks and wards, getting that extra gold from kills and/or towers, but then it is as you said a non issue. I do believe a few items will make a big difference in combination with good positioning and all that. Even if you do go down, those few extra seconds you take to die can make a huge difference in a fight. I do not challenge the idea or importance of map control though, it is most often the main task. In the end it all comes down to experience, like every other role or situation in this game. Stupid game.
Last edit: 2012-07-10 18:02:10 |
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 CountChocula Canada. July 09 2012 05:34. Posts 860 | Profile # |
On July 09 2012 01:40 InternalSync wrote:
I get what you're saying, but do you honestly think that having a magic wand + bracer and boots in the mid game will do any difference when the opponent team decides to take out the supports at the start of a teamfight? I really don't think so. You'd have to have much more than that to survive all the burst damage coming at you.
So it becomes more of a question, is it really worth buying these items, when instead you could be supporting your team with wards? Wards provide map control, which in turn provides safer/smarter play, more farm for everyone and allows your team to get in better position in fights/ganks/pushes. IMO having 1500 gold worth of items on a support hero is negligible in comparison to what the map control can do for your team. Of course this is true only if the support hero has limited gold to spend and has to choose between one or the other, but if he can get both than this is a non issue. Bottom line is, I strongly disagree with any support player who prioritizes items over wards because mapcontrol is something you need to maintain at all times, if you let that slip off your fingers its extremely difficult to get back.
I stand corrected about the gpm, that strengthens my argument even more. Not like we are arguing or something, but .. you know.
If you're a support and you're in a position to allow the opposing team to take you out before a teamfight happens, then you're doing it wrong. I also think you're underestimating the utility of an additional bracer. It lets you survive one more nuke which is sometimes the difference between life and death from early- to mid-game. How many times have you gotten away red HP or were just about to TP out but got killed? One more bracer and a stick would likely have saved you and sometimes it's the difference between whether you can get off another round of spells to help your CC down enemy heroes and win the teamfight.
One teamfight victory early on leads to something akin to the butterfly effect. If you survived a teamfight and the opposition support didn't, you're going to be much better off and perhaps show up at the next fight with upgraded boots or drums and in a better position to help your team win another teamfight.
As for "So it becomes more of a question, is it really worth buying these items, when instead you could be supporting your team with wards?" I don't like how you're trying to establish a false dichotomy that rarely occurs. If you buy 1 set of wards every 6min, even based on passive gold gain alone there should be 75*6 - 200 = 250 gold left over, so it's kinda a misleading question. Most games you should be able to farm neutrals or pick up lane farm when your carries are at base healing. I tend to agree more with Appendix that every situation is different, so you have to analyze them and come to a decision yourself.Last edit: 2012-07-09 06:51:37 |
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| InternalSync July 09 2012 12:30. Posts 134 | Profile # |
On July 09 2012 05:34 CountChocula wrote:
I also think you're underestimating the utility of an additional bracer. It lets you survive one more nuke which is sometimes the difference between life and death from early- to mid-game. How many times have you gotten away red HP or were just about to TP out but got killed? One more bracer and a stick would likely have saved you and sometimes it's the difference between whether you can get off another round of spells to help your CC down enemy heroes and win the teamfight.
I'm not underestimating the importance of one extra bracer, but I would never give the bracer priority over wards, assuming the support player has limited gold and has to pick one or the other. Whether a support hero survives for another 5-6 seconds to get off another round of spells isn't solely dependent on their HP pool, I think that having a good position and better engagement at the start of a team fight will give you way more fighting power and survivability than one bracer or boots.
As for "So it becomes more of a question, is it really worth buying these items, when instead you could be supporting your team with wards?" I don't like how you're trying to establish a false dichotomy that rarely occurs. If you buy 1 set of wards every 6min, even based on passive gold gain alone there should be 75*6 - 200 = 250 gold left over, so it's kinda a misleading question. Most games you should be able to farm neutrals or pick up lane farm when your carries are at base healing. I tend to agree more with Appendix that every situation is different, so you have to analyze them and come to a decision yourself.
I didn't make myself clear enough, sorry for that. I asked that question assuming that the support doesn't have enough gold to buy both things, so can he pick one or the other. I wasn't arguing that they shouldn't get any items, but I guess the way I worded that made it look that way.
This is what NS said:
Logically thinking, it’s hard to realize how a baby-sitter would earn money for wards as he doesn’t farm at all.
He is basically saying: don't buy wards if you baby sit someone because you cant afford it. As we pointed out earlier, to which you also agreed in the quote above, this is simply not true, unless the support player goes on a feeding spree in the first few minutes of the game, but that's such a rare occurrence that doesn't justify NS' line of thinking.
This is my main gripe with his guide for support players, because it encourages greedy play by supports. Now perhaps this isn't such a big deal in high level pro games, but greedy play is the cancer of pub games imo. Countless games have been ruined by butthurt mid/carry players who go "no wards, no courier, no ss, no ganks, ff im afk". Its up to the support players to ensure that these things don't happen, even if it means getting boots or a bracer a bit later into the game. In my experience, sacrificing a bit for the team and making them happy pays huge dividends later into the game. |
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| tauon Australia. July 09 2012 14:47. Posts 435 | Profile Blog # |
What I find amazing about this thread is that people can't even take advice from someone who is considered to be one of the BEST support players in the world.
On July 09 2012 12:30 InternalSync wrote:
This is my main gripe with his guide for support players, because it encourages greedy play by supports. Now perhaps this isn't such a big deal in high level pro games, but greedy play is the cancer of pub games imo. Countless games have been ruined by butthurt mid/carry players who go "no wards, no courier, no ss, no ganks, ff im afk". Its up to the support players to ensure that these things don't happen, even if it means getting boots or a bracer a bit later into the game. In my experience, sacrificing a bit for the team and making them happy pays huge dividends later into the game.
It's pretty hard to consider someone who plays a support hero in a pub match greedy... Also, people have a tendency to blame wards for their death when their lack of map awareness is to blame
Anyway, I think people under estimate the usefulness of support heroes (they carry some excellent stuns) and boots are an essential mid game item on every hero (with a few exceptions). Of course supports should be buying wards but I think people are stuck in the old mentality of supports being pure 'ward bitches'. |
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| mordk July 09 2012 15:10. Posts 7047 | Profile Blog # |
Supports =/= ward bitches
Saying NS isn't a top support is pretty ridiculous BTW.
NS mentality is precisely why he is one of the better supports around and has always been like this. The ability of a support to actually be important in the mid-late game stages of the game is just as important as the ability to ward and give map control, and when a support goes full ward bitch they end up severely underlevelled and are completely useless, not even their ults help their team.
This is a classic problem of so many heroes it's not even funny, the biggest example right now is probably SD. If SD only wards and has a rather bad start, he becomes completely useless and dies all the time in the midgame, basically feeding enemy carries the whole time.
There's a fine balance here and it depends on the situation, but when not pubbing, you should always assume as a support you WILL die, so you can't just rely on auto gold to ward and get nothing else. Get the 5-6 min ward set and then get a few creeps and get those boots and if possible a set of bracers, your team will be thankful when you're actually useful in teamfights.Last edit: 2012-07-09 15:10:41 |
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