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| CAPSLOCKLOL United States. July 06 2012 16:05. Posts 122 | Profile Blog # |
Replay http://drop.sc/215441
Analysis:
I open with Bomber's 1 rax fe with only a single gas before the oc finishes. My opponent opens pretty standard with 1 gate fe into 3 gate. As for tech he opts to get a robo, twilight council, and 2 forges in that order.
From that point on he plays quite passive as his build defintely doesn't allow for any pressure with such fast tech. I poke around the watch towers trying to pick up any clues as to what my opponents doing and looking for any possible proxy pylons, but until my 8:00 scan I'm left largely in the dark about what actual tech he went for inside his base. My scan reveals pretty much all his tech and telegraphs to me that my opponent is playing defensive with no third in the future until templar tech kicks in, so I opt for ghosts in case of some sort of 2 base chargelot all in before I take my third.
Once I get my ghosts and third base I try to apply pressure as he takes his third, but even without his templars he overruns me with an upgrade advantage. From there the game spirals out of control due to some poor engagements on my part, but my main issue comes before all my poorly chosen engagements begin.
My thoughts:
It seems his build sacrifices safety from any sort of early pressure in exchange for a strong defensive mid game, which negates pressure from my medivac timings. On top of that I'm not sure what my response should be once I know my opponent is opting for double forge with that composition, as it seems like any engagement where I'm behind on ups is extremely cost efficient in his favor.
I feel like I'm forced into a coinflip as far as punishing his greedy build, and lost as what I need to do in the mid game. Any and all helps is appreciated! |
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| Bahajinbo Germany. July 06 2012 16:52. Posts 342 | Profile # |
I very often play this style (FE, then fast tech) after seeing a FE from the Terran.
Did he go Colossi or High Templar? I'm at the university right now, I can't watch the replay yet, sorry.
I wouldn't even try to drop with medivacs if he goes High Templar except the Protoss has very bad positions of his High Templars. I usually have one at my mineral line to feedback medivacs.
In this case, I think there is a timing where Terrans can easily attack the front with a strong bio force and medivacs.
If he goes Colossi, I would try dropping in multiple locations. As soon I go Colossi very fast on 2 bases, I usually have problems to defend against heavy drops. In this case, the Protoss has to split up his units -especially Stalkers- perfectly to deny potential drops.
Anyway, you have to do some damage before he gets his anti-bio units and fast upgrades. A Protoss with many High Templars & Colossi is hard to beat with bio only. Also, I think in some cases Banshees can threat the Protoss sometimes. You said he had fast 2 forges (which I also do very often off 2 bases) but did he build cannons in his mineral line? |
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| Fus Sweden. July 06 2012 16:56. Posts 953 | Profile # |
| The toss build wasnt really that greedy. You can take advantage of drop play while he doesnt have blink + templars, try to keep toss on 2 base while establishing your own third, keep up with the upgrades from 2 engi bays. When you have delayed third play defensive and counter whatver tech P is going for, then hit a timing from 3 base or take a 4rd while delaying protoss 4th |
| | NaNiwa | MinChul | Stephano | MVP ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
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| whistle United States. July 06 2012 17:54. Posts 139 | Profile # |
Your macro was good and you were up on supply by a small amount for most of the game until the battles happened. One that was probably a bit of a turning point was when you engaged him right outside the chokepoint to his natural when his 3/3 had just started and your 2/2 was only halfway done. No reason to engage there, you can always just stim and run away with bio. If you're not gonna have a good time fighting while down on upgrades the obvious answer is not to fight him then. The main problem with this strategy is when P hits 3/3 and the third base has fully kicked in, he really wants to start throwing some a-move around. To deal with that you should turtle behind planetaries until your own 3/3 kicks in. You can sort of use the mentality of a zerg mutaling player at this point, it's okay to lose some units in drops/counterattack squads as long as they buy sufficient time for your upgrades. As a protoss player, if I feel threatened by 2+ medivac drops at that stage in the game, I'll tend to delay my 3/3 push until I get more cannons and HT spread around my bases.
If you are super afraid of the 3/3 timing I remember Juan/Kitty discussing something he used to do (don't know if he still does it): instead of going +1 attack, +1 armor, +ebay/+armory -> +2/+2 together, he said to get +1 attack, +ebay/+armory, then +2/+1. Then you get 3/2 around the time he gets 3/3, and you're only down an armor upgrade (zealots aren't invincible anymore!).
MMM control was pretty good, but ghost control was not. Felt like a ghost's lifespan was measured by its energy - reach max, it's sent out to die. First it happened right before that 2/2 vs 1/1 battle by his natural choke (ghosts killed by HT's feedback under a scan when his army isn't moving around? it's like shooting fish in a barrel because of the range difference but somehow the fish killed you), and then it happened near the middle of the map after you pushed back his army from your third. HT are the first target of choice, but when he's got 8 archons, I think that's way more dangerous. No reason to let ghosts die when trying to walk around zealot archon, just to get at two templar. There's basically no way to kill that many archons on open ground unless you get EMPs off. Speaking of which, don't engage a pure zealot mass archon army in the open... (this ties into the idea of turtling until you are even on upgrades).
Lastly, this is a lot more theorycrafting than I'm usually comfortable with, but I guess you can take it as food for thought (with very much salt). I think there's a reason pros don't usually get a ghost academy so quick even when they scout twilight/gateway play. He only had a handful of gateway units and one archon at the normal medivac timing. Judging by how many units you had EVEN WITH the ghost academy (32 marines 1 marauder 2 ghosts 2 medivacs vs 13 zealots 1 archon 3 sentries 3 stalkers), I think you could have straight up killed him with traditional medivac pressure if you had the ghost resources dumped into MMM. 1/0 vs 1/1 is not that bad. I guess ghosts would help against a storm all-in but those are pretty rare, plus you don't need ghosts at 10 mins against those. If you consider the % of builds that come off quick twilight, I think there are many more builds that can be punished by a strong medivac pressure than builds that require you to get super fast ghosts. (From a protoss point of view, the medivac timing is the main issue I have with doing twilight based builds).
The last paragraph isn't that important. It might even be totally wrong. But the important things are to delay the double forge 3/3 timing by turtling until you're even on upgrades and EMP his cotton balls by not letting your ghosts die.
e: added some stuffLast edit: 2012-07-07 05:12:54 |
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| SKYFISH_ Bulgaria. July 06 2012 18:13. Posts 619 | Profile # |
you have to pressure off two base the moment you have the first two medivacs out, getting a third and then going for it simple puts you into a lategame scenario where you are at a disadvantage.
ghost tech was way too early imo, i personally opt for double gas after 4 raxes and eventually double engineering, gives you that critical mass of units around the 10-11th minute mark that is very hard for the P to deal with
Last edit: 2012-07-06 18:13:26 |
| | In Soviet Terranistan you rush the Zerg |
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| necronomicon Austria. July 17 2012 16:24. Posts 1 | Profile # |
I also like to do the bomber build.
As SKYFISH_ said, i think u started ghost tech too fast. (in early stages its often better to dodge the low amount of storms)
keep pumping units out of your 5 raxes + medivacs, as soon as your first two vacs pop out -> start shield and rauder slow (its important for your first push against gateway units, rauder slow is fast done and shield could finish while u poke his choke) and move out.
with some movement, 2-4 vacs, rauder slow shield, stim and perhabs the factory as "chokepointgenerator" u could trade well.
Last edit: 2012-07-17 16:34:03 |
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| Ghostdav Canada. July 19 2012 14:22. Posts 128 | Profile Blog # |
My scan reveals pretty much all his tech and telegraphs to me that my opponent is playing defensive with no third in the future until templar tech kicks in, so I opt for ghosts in case of some sort of 2 base chargelot all in before I take my third.
I don't understand why you went ghosts, just make MMM with bunkers if you expect an all in. Teching immediately to ghosts is going to shrink your MMM army significantly. I normally don't drop the Ghost Academy until I start building my third. How I play TvP with success is treat every game like he's two base all inning. Leave an SCV or Marine at his third, and as soon as he puts down that third you have to pressure. Either hit him in two places with drops or take your whole army and snipe his third. How I play up to that point is wait with a pre concaved MMM army as soon as medivacs are done to catch him off guard outside his natural.
Cheers |
| | It's quite alright, goodbye for now. |
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| Sianos July 19 2012 19:49. Posts 528 | Profile # |
I agree with the preposter. You went ghosts way too early in combination with naked rax. The biggest problem with the bomber style build is that you tend to not build many marrauders, but you really need them. Even aggainst zealot ht marrauder are your shields and give you potential to micro and they last longer in storms. You already can get a ghost acedemy at 12:30 with your build, which is early enough, but don´t forget to add in marrauder they are really important.
Your macro is quite good, but at 14 minutes you only have 2 marrauders in your army, but you need a good part of your army as marrauders even aggainst zealot ht style. Also because he can just make archons out of his templars and roflstomp your marine only army. Marine only army does a huge amount of dps but they will die instantly aggainst chargelosts and hts.
That is my advice to you. I just realized this own my own, after playing bomber style a few times and it made a huge difference in my play, after i added in marrauders.Last edit: 2012-07-19 19:52:03 |
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